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    (Original post by _icecream)
    Pepsi? That's so unhealthy
    So is having a pre-packaged dinner at your desk whilst doing paperwork (or no dinner at all) - believe me, the Pepsi is really not the biggest problem here.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    I know you're being toungue-in-cheek, but I work as a carer doing shift work and I take a better lunch with me than you do and the time of my shift makes no difference as to whether I eat well or not. I prepare sandwiches, fruit, snacks and a drink before I leave for work - pop it all in a cool bag, sorted.

    Working a night shift doesn't mean you have to eat convenience food. I also work long and often times unsociable hours and I'd bet that I do a lot more physical manual handling of patients than you do and I get paid a hell of a lot less. When I hear people talking of ''oh but lives are in doctors hands'' - they're in our hands too , literally when we're hoisting them out of bed, transferring them with stand aids etc and giving out medications (a responsibility for which we get a ONE DAY medication course and then ONE POUND per shift for the extra responsibility). We're more overworked, understaffed and underpaid than junior doctors and we have lives in our hands too - do you see us striking and leaving our patients etc? No.

    I know I just went totally serious on you, but you're trivializing something controversial that a lot of people in the health care industry (like me) have strong opinions about.

    Also, with regard to the bold part - you're pretty sheltered if you think that's not already the case generally.
    Why are you so keen for a race to the bottom?
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    We're more overworked, understaffed and underpaid than junior doctors and we have lives in our hands too - do you see us strikig and leaving our patients etc? No.
    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    I'll be 29 when I qualify (would have been older if I chose medicine) and want a good work/life balance. I have family and friends in the health care professions and the ones who are junior doctors are worked into the ground. I didn't want that. So I didn't choose that.
    I don't understand this. You avoided medicine because you wanted a good work/life balance, and so chose a career that is more overworked, understaffed and underpaid than medicine?

    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Care work and particularly the NHS is all about putting the patient first and upholding our duty of care - personally it's a huge juxtaposition for a doctor to strike and I'm aware that there were steps made to ensure that staff were covered but my point is: what if everyone in healthcare (or every doctor) took that position of striking.
    This is nonsense. Doctors have families to look after, tens of thousands of pounds worth of debts to pay off, bills to pay, mortgages, among of multitude of other things which requires money. Why is that in every other profession it is acceptable to fight for fair conditions aside from those in healthcare? It's not right. Doctors go through years of medical training and tonnes of other **** (conferences, research, papers, teaching etc) to pass hoops in order to get to a good position. There is no point of it if the reward at the end is not fair. The fact is the patient is not first, you and your family come first. No one would go through this to become a volunteer in the end.

    And the idea is that not everyone in healthcare is striking. Even in a full JD strike, consultants are fully capable of covering emergencies. But pretty all elective work would grind to a halt, which is the point.

    But, for your point, here's an extreme hypothetical to consider: imagine that the government somehow withdrew all funding for wages to be paid to healthcare staff. Are healthcare workers not allowed to strike/quit because they have a 'duty' of upholding care? No. people would die, but everyone would quit regardless.
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    (Original post by Etomidate)
    Why are you so keen for a race to the bottom?

    If you mean what I think you mean...

    I'm going to be a physiotherapist - I'm going to have it a lot easier than I currently do. This isn't a permanent fixture for me but it is for most of the people that I work with. They are hard working caring people and frankly if it wasn't for their work this country would be a mess because there are thousands of elderly people with no one to care for them but underpaid and overworked care assistants.

    They do the right thing by being loyal to their duty of care despite terrible pay and awful conditions. Whether or not I'm a carer (I won't be very soon) I will defend those workers and hold them in high regard because they put up with a lot and they don't let any of it jeopardize patient care by walking out. I've done it for a year - a lot of them have done it for 15+ and they still put patients first. They have worse conditions and pay than doctors could even imagine and they don't walk out.

    The pay and conditions of doctors, yes I know they vary but generally, are cushy compared to that of carers and other health care workers who don't strike. If they can't put patients first on those kinds of salaries with those conditions then I question their suitability for the health care profession.

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    Why does every doctor post end up as an argument about who works harder in the health service? We should be sticking together and supporting our colleagues in their fight to improve our health service against incompetent government.


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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
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    One of my relatives is a nurse (similar situation to you, actually - worked as a carer for years, worked out she'd be much better off as a nurse while still doing a similar job) and she's always said she's often disgraced by the workload and stress junior doctors are under and often, they are worse off than the nurses (and I don't think anyone can contest that nurses are put under a lot of strain).

    From what she's said, I think it's a case of people not seeming to see the difference between a consultant and a junior doctor when there is a vast difference.

    The junior doctor contracts are not only appaling, but will almost certainly be the nail in the coffin for the NHS as we know it (case in point - more than seventy percent of junior doctors have said they will leave the NHS if the contracts are enacted in August) - I don't understand how you can talk about carers being underappreciated (which they are and not just paid carers, but family members and the like who take on caring roles - if you want to talk about people the system would crumble without, it's them) and then go on to not appreciate the work of junior doctors.

    Also, I'd like to reiterate what Ethereal World said - this is about more than just junior doctors, but the patients (and seeing as everyone in the UK could possibly be a patient at any time, that means these contracts affect us all).

    It's not selfish of junior doctors to strike. They have a right to stand up against something that is clearly unjust. Just because they're doctors doesn't mean they're allowed to be treated like rubbish.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    If you mean what I think you mean...

    I'm going to be a physiotherapist - I'm going to have it a lot easier than I currently do. This isn't a permanent fixture for me but it is for most of the people that I work with. They are hard working caring people and frankly if it wasn't for their work this country would be a mess because there are thousands of elderly people with no one to care for them but underpaid and overworked care assistants.

    They do the right thing by being loyal to their duty of care despite terrible pay and awful conditions. Whether or not I'm a carer (I won't be very soon) I will defend those workers and hold them in high regard because they put up with a lot and they don't let any of it jeopardize patient care by walking out. I've done it for a year - a lot of them have done it for 15+ and they still put patients first. They have worse conditions and pay than doctors could even imagine and they don't walk out.

    The pay and conditions of doctors, yes I know they vary but generally, are cushy compared to that of carers and other health care workers who don't strike. If they can't put patients first on those kinds of salaries with those conditions then I question their suitability for the health care profession.

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    But turnover of care assistants in many areas is incredibly high, so it seems to me that plenty of people are "walking out" from care jobs with crappy conditions. Which is completely fair and understandable, but also probably one of the reasons why conditions are so crappy.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Yes, I considered medicine and physiotherapy as careers - ultimately chose physio because I didn't like a lot of aspects of medicine relating to the working conditions especially at FY1 and FY2 and generally the all consuming aspect of the job - I'll be 29 when I qualify (would have been older if I chose medicine) and want a good work/life balance. I have family and friends in the health care professions and the ones who are junior doctors are worked into the ground. I didn't want that. So I didn't choose that.

    Also, you seem particularly vexed. I'm not on a "high horse" - how could I be? We're the bottom rung of the ladder in health care. My point is - we have arguably the worst pay and working conditions but we also recognise our duty of care.

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    So you agree that junior doctors are worked in the ground, so much so it put you off medicine, but you think junior doctors should just accept a further reduction in working conditions?

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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Wow

    You're more militant than me XD

    I don;t agree with that last sentence though. I don't agree with the logic around how healthcare staff should never go on strike, but I respect any health workers who think that. That doesn't mean they don't have it bad or don't recognize how bad they have it etc.
    I'm just sick of people whinging about their working conditions then in the next breath sitting on unions/striking. That's what they're there for you knob.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Do you currently work in healthcare? Genuine question.

    Because if we (carers) went on strike today there would be people who live in care homes or in their own homes with no family willing or able to care for them who have all manner of life limiting health conditions such a dementia who could not look after themselves.

    I look after elderly people who have had strokes, who have Parkinson's, dementia etc and can't feed themselves, walk (can't take themselves to the bathroom), or stand. I care for people with late stage dementia who sit in a chair all day and if it wasn't for the fact that we spoon feed them and hoist them onto a commode they would be starved and covered in their own faeces all day. If we went on strike those people would not have a drink all day or a visit to the bathroom or a meal or anyone to give them medication and ensure that they don't get pressure sores etc. They wouldn't have anyone to talk to or reassure them.

    Also, it's easier for me because this isn't my permanent job and I don't depend on it financially. But there are people who's mortgages and kids depend on their wages - they aren't in a position to strike, not on 12k a year and not knowing the effect it would have on our patients.

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    Nope but my grandma needed 24 hour care for years due to parkinsons. If she died because people had to strike for better working conditions so be it. Shed have understood. I wished her carers would tbh their working conditions were shite, as they are for 90% of carers.
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    (Original post by Justmoll28)
    if its about the whole pay and striking, i mean, you are still a junior doctor so why dont you just have a career swerve while youre still young? simples
    LOL you are a fool.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I'm just sick of people whinging about their working conditions then in the next breath sitting on unions/striking. That's what they're there for you knob.
    Me?


    (Original post by redferry)
    Nope but my grandma needed 24 hour care for years due to parkinsons. If she died because people had to strike for better working conditions so be it. Shed have understood. I wished her carers would tbh their working conditions were shite, as they are for 90% of carers.

    It's also war logic. Politicians are willing to send men to die if it means reducing net death, like toppling dictators like Saddam Hussein. It's the same for the doctors etc. If you think the policies being enforced are goign to result in more suffering in the long term you can moral justify short term suffering to stop the greater long term effect in my view.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    I know you're being toungue-in-cheek, but I work as a carer doing shift work and I take a better lunch with me than you do and the time of my shift makes no difference as to whether I eat well or not. I prepare sandwiches, fruit, snacks and a drink before I leave for work - pop it all in a cool bag, sorted.

    Working a night shift doesn't mean you have to eat convenience food. I also work long and often times unsociable hours and I'd bet that I do a lot more physical manual handling of patients than you do and I get paid a hell of a lot less. When I hear people talking of ''oh but lives are in doctors hands'' - they're in our hands too , literally when we're hoisting them out of bed, transferring them with stand aids etc and giving out medications (a responsibility for which we get a ONE DAY medication course and then ONE POUND per shift for the extra responsibility). We're more overworked, understaffed and underpaid than junior doctors and we have lives in our hands too - do you see us striking and leaving our patients etc? No.

    I know I just went totally serious on you, but you're trivializing something controversial that a lot of people in the health care industry (like me) have strong opinions about.

    Also, with regard to the bold part - you're pretty sheltered if you think that's not already the case generally.
    Hmm, at night I eat while I'm reading through the notes of a new patient before I go to speak to them / examine them. I don't get designated breaks on a regular basis. So I have to have to eat something snacky.

    Also I don't do things like make sandwiches - I'm too inpatient, unskilled and lazy.
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    (Original post by Little Popcorns)
    No way principles and everything! You're blowing my mind.

    Who did you vote for last general election?
    i dont vote
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Me?





    It's also war logic. Politicians are willing to send men to die if it means reducing net death, like toppling dictators like Saddam Hussein. It's the same for the doctors etc. If you think the policies being enforced are goign to result in more suffering in the long term you can moral justify short term suffering to stop the greater long term effect in my view.
    Not you persinally, just general people moaning then slogging off unions.

    Yeah agreed, and with the caring profession we have seen that already with these horrendous neglect and abuse cases.
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    (Original post by _icecream)
    Pepsi? That's so unhealthy
    At least he's having pepsi max...less sugar!
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    (Original post by muchensmile)
    At least he's having pepsi max...less sugar!
    It's full of fake artificial sweeteners like aspartame
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Nope but my grandma needed 24 hour care for years due to parkinsons. If she died because people had to strike for better working conditions so be it. Shed have understood. I wished her carers would tbh their working conditions were shite, as they are for 90% of carers.
    You can't be for real?

    So she'd have been happy to suffer a slow and painful death on her own so that people could moan about their jobs? Who are you to say what her wishes would have been anyway - I doubt you were her power of attorney.

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    (Original post by Awesome Genius)
    i dont vote
    That's weak
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    (Original post by Awesome Genius)
    Cos we're always on nights. This has been my dinner for the past few nights.

    A can of pepsi max and some M&S Sushi.

    Soon it will be Asda Sushi

    On a serious note though, the new contract will create a situation where only people who are already well off will actually want to do medicine. Terrible really.

    Attachment 503373
    Dear Awesome

    Had you known about the contract changes before you did a medicine degree would you still have done it? If not what would you have done instead?
 
 
 
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