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I went to the Calais refugee camp today Watch

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    (Original post by SweetEmily)
    I agree with you!

    But I dont see any shame in been a economic migrant, all that effort just to get a half way decent job, you have to admire them, I know people who moan they cant get a job, as the only work near them is two bus rides away!
    Well, I partly agree with you. If we had something like an Australian-style point system, we could so a lot of good. Not only could we end the discrimination against non-EU migrants, but we could stop criminials entering into the country.

    This would allow us to select the positives of immigration, and not the negatives. You then end up with a very very successful and diverse country.
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    (Original post by jedanselemyia)
    .
    You never answered my questions

    (Original post by LibertyMan)
    So I know you said you didn't get to see the women, but do you have an idea of how many men there were compared to women? 50:50 ? Or was there a bias?

    What kind of jobs and backgrounds did the people you speak to come from?

    How did they get to France? (smuggled by boat, if so where from)

    I am deeply and personally offended by this.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Well, I partly agree with you. If we had something like an Australian-style point system, we could so a lot of good. Not only could we end the discrimination against non-EU migrants, but we could stop criminials entering into the country.

    This would allow us to select the positives of immigration, and not the negatives. You then end up with a very very successful and diverse country.
    True. The Canadian system is also very efficient : a points system, based on the prospective immigrant's qualifications, and Canada's needs (interestingly, Quebec runs a system which gives additional points to French-speakers)

    Requests are collected at Canadian Consulates all over the world, and immigrants who are selected will receive a total assistance package: not only housing and health, but also further professional training, language courses, help in having degrees recognised, in writing CVs and job applications etc etc

    the existence of an official immigration scheme, strictly enforced, aims at discouraging "queue jumpers" : of course, Canada is "protected" by two oceans (and the US) so it does not risk receiving refugees on inflatable boats about to sink...

    But asylum seekers is a different issue from economic migration.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    But asylum seekers is a different issue from economic migration.
    They have become hopelessly conflated.

    The whole system of refugee and asylum seeking classification needs urgent overhaul at an international level. I guess by the United Nations?

    This crisis has highlighted the fatal dysfunction at the heart of one transnational body, the European Union, which continues to fail to adequately deal with it. Does anyone expect the Summit which starts tomorrow in Brussels going anywhere close to starting to get to grips with all this? It will be yet another fudge, pleasing no-one and kicking the can down the road, will it not?

    But the UN needs to step to the plate and modernise refugee classification also.
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    They have become hopelessly conflated.

    The whole system of refugee and asylum seeking classification needs urgent overhaul at an international level. I guess by the United Nations?

    This crisis has highlighted the fatal dysfunction at the heart of one transnational body, the European Union, which continues to fail to adequately deal with it. Does anyone expect the Summit which starts tomorrow in Brussels going anywhere close to starting to get to grips with all this? It will be yet another fudge, pleasing no-one and kicking the can down the road, will it not?

    But the UN needs to step to the plate and modernise refugee classification also.
    international bodies are only as good as their Members want them to be. The European Union is controlled by its Member States, which are following national strategies instead of looking at collective solutions.

    New international conventions about refugees (worked out at UN level) would need strong leadership and common goals. I fail to see how this would prove in any way easier at UN level rather than at EU level, given the respective decision-making structures.

    The distinction between asylum seekers/refugees/economic migrants has been simply swamped by numbers. The 1 million migrants in the EU last year meant that operating the distinction between asylum seekers/refugees and economic migrants has become next to impossible to operate in practical terms, within a reasonable time frame

    Anyone setting foot on EU soil stands, in practice, a good chance of remaining (if he/she so wishes), after a few years of legal harassment. Non-voluntary repatriations are few, and far in-between. Not many repatriation agreements have been concluded, and even fewer are functioning.

    And this is the signal that is sent out to prospective immigrants : if you manage to get here (even by risking your life on inflatable boats) and resist for a couple of years of legal harassment, you will eventually be able to stay indefinitely (if you so wish)

    It is not a surprise that many economic migrants will try their luck
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Wallah we will go together next time inshallah
    Hahaha :laugh:

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    Over.

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    My.

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    Dead.

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    Body.

    (Original post by Profesh)
    the term 'freeloaders' as a pejorative epithet to describe people who have been uprooted from their ancestral homeland
    Just as the mainstream media have done/are 'encouraging' (brainwashing?) the general public to do, you've conflated all Calais migrants with the sub-group, of the sub-group 'refugees', who are forced to leave their homelands

    it is exactly this kind of pervasive, obfuscating and mendacious lack of intellectual honesty which largely accounts for why I haven't bothered debating anything of real-world significance outside H&R since 2006
    Heck, at least you're honest about your disingenuous commentary :yy:
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    As someone whose parents travel between Kent and northern France on a regular basis I'm angry that you have contributed to the problem with your naivety, attitude and actions. Putting aside the fact they are migrants, not refugees (they have had ample opportunity to seek safety/shelter/asylum in a number of developed, 'rich' countries but have chosen not to do so. They are there with the only intention to get in to the UK by illegal means), in practical terms they intimidate drivers, attempt to open car doors and harass people heading to/from the ferries. They have destroyed the area around Calais and forced the French authorities to spend scant resources clearing up after them. I have personally seen them running across motorways in Kent, forcing cars to taken sudden, dangerous, evasive action. They damage lorries and fences and show absolutely no respect for wherever they are.

    While I do have sympathy for genuine refugees and their plight I would be delighted if the Calais camps were bulldozed tomorrow. Closing Sangatte helped the situation but it seems the French are doing little to discourage those near Calais to keep trying to get to the UK. Please don't encourage them further.
    Funny how jedanselemyia didn't respond to this post.
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Hahaha :laugh:

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    My.

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    Body.

    Just as the mainstream media have done/are 'encouraging' (brainwashing?) the general public to do, you've conflated all Calais migrants with the sub-group, of the sub-group 'refugees', who are forced to leave their homelands
    In choosing to dismiss the entire Calais diaspora as "freeloaders" dozyrosie makes no concession to those legitimately fleeing the privations of internecine conflict as distinct from the—relatively small—contingent of dishonest would-be émigrés parlaying a volatile situation to their economic advantage, so must answer either to the charge of hypocritically denigrating the former category from her position of serendipitous luxury (which I personally find hilarious), or else cynically generalising the latter as representative of any but a marginal subset within the overarching demographic of "displaced personae non gratae currently subsisting in penury on the fringes of a culturally, linguistically and geographically alien society which regards them with extreme prejudice".

    Of course, if you mean to contend (quite implausibly, it must be said) that 'freeloaders'—whose existence I at no point denied, contrary to your typically glib mischaracterisation—actually account for the majority stakeholder of this nefarious beggars' banquet, then I don't envy you that burden of proof, although I must exhort you to present your findings lest my appalling mainstream ignorance continue unchecked. Otherwise, the "conflation" is entirely hers.

    Heck, at least you're honest about your disingenuous commentary :yy:
    Don't be illiterate.
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    (Original post by Profesh)
    In choosing to dismiss the entire Calais diaspora as "freeloaders" dozyrosie makes no concession to those legitimately fleeing the privations of internecine conflict as distinct from the—relatively small—contingent of dishonest would-be émigrés parlaying a volatile situation to their economic advantage, so must answer either to the charge of hypocritically denigrating the former category from her position of serendipitous luxury (which I personally find hilarious), or else cynically generalising the latter as representative of any but a marginal subset within the overarching demographic of "displaced personae non gratae currently subsisting in penury on the fringes of a culturally, linguistically and geographically alien society which regards them with extreme prejudice".

    Of course, if you mean to contend (quite implausibly, it must be said) that 'freeloaders'—whose existence I at no point denied, contrary to your typically glib mischaracterisation—actually account for the majority stakeholder of this nefarious beggars' banquet, then I don't envy you that burden of proof, although I must exhort you to present your findings lest my appalling mainstream ignorance continue unchecked. Otherwise, the "conflation" is entirely hers.


    Don't be illiterate.
    You are going to have to get it through your head, as hard as that may be, these freeloaders had every opportunity to register their situation, these particular freeloaders just want to enter Britain, other freeloaders use the same tactics to get to other countries of their choice.
    They should be rounded up and shipped back to Asia or Africa, then maybe the next time they decide to make a European run they will register when they arrive in Europe.
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    (Original post by Profesh)
    the entire Calais diaspora
    the overarching demographic of displaced..
    Don't be illiterate
    Bit rich?

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    Not all Calais migrants (the broad subject of her comments) are diaspora/displaced people

    dozyrosie makes no concession to those legitimately fleeing the privations of internecine conflict
    Had this been your original contention you'd look a lot less of a sprout

    the relatively small contingent of dishonest would-be émigrés parlaying a volatile situation to their economic advantage
    a marginal subset
    "Relatively small contingent" and “a marginal subset” in percentage terms please? :holmes:

    currently subsisting in penury on the fringes of a culturally, linguistically and geographically alien society which regards them with extreme prejudice
    Hit the nail on the head. Most such people should not be in Europe, they do not belong/fit in here, and in many cases their presence is unsustainable

    Otherwise, the "conflation" is entirely hers
    Would you like me to draw you a Venn diagram?

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    Showing refugees who have been forced (e.g. physically propelled, or else fled so as to avoid a clear, present, and immediate danger re: death/persecution) to leave their homeland (e.g. regions of Africa/The Middle East) vs. the population of the Calais ‘jungle’

    (Original post by dozyrosie)
    They should be rounded up and shipped back to Asia or Africa, then maybe the next time they decide to make a European run they will register when they arrive in Europe
    Agreed, although the vulnerable in their midst should have asylum applications processed should they wish to claim it in the relevant state or else the ‘first safe country’ (that they originally entered/passed through on the long road to a better life in Northern Europe)
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    (Original post by fr0sr_)
    Funny how jedanselemyia didn't respond to this post.
    I know. It's as if she thinks taking a day-trip to go visit the area, for less than an hour, with a bunch of fellow students with no discernible relevant skills, where she didn't speak directly to anyone there, didn't speak to any of the local French business owners whose livelihoods have suffered, didn't speak to French members of the public who have had to put up with the slum and trashed countryside for 17 years, didn't speak to French public officials who have to divert resources meant for their own people, didn't speak to British lorry drivers who get fined when someone sneaks though in their lorry, or didn't speak to British holiday-makers terrified that someone walking alongside their car will suddenly run at it and try to get in - will make her think she's saving the world and doing a good thing. By her actions she is part of the problem.
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    (Original post by Duncan2012)
    Please don't encourage them further.
    unfortunately, this is the whole point. The reservoir of people from Middlle East/Africa/Eastern Europe who wish to move to Northern Europe for economic reasons is potentially huge

    the better migrants are treated, the better chances they have to succeed in entering the UK, Sweden, Germany etc, the more people will start moving

    unfortunately, the harsh living conditions in places such as Calais, the dangers of the Mediterranean crossings and the difficulty of the long trek through the Balkans are the main deterrents holding them back : not a good strategy, but it seems to be the only one which we are capable to work out

    and no, I have no other real solution to the problem
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    the better migrants are treated, the better chances they have to succeed in entering the UK, Sweden, Germany etc, the more people will start moving
    PRECISELY SO

    All these utter imbeciles seem to love to be seen as the "better person" by patting these economic migrant scum on the back for entering Europe illegally and camping out like the scummy ****ers they are.

    Whereas in the reality they're merely encouraging more of the c**ts to arrive and force their way into Europe.
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    (Original post by fr0sr_)
    PRECISELY SO

    All these utter imbeciles seem to love to be seen as the "better person" by patting these economic migrant scum on the back for entering Europe illegally and camping out like the scummy ****ers they are.

    Whereas in the reality they're merely encouraging more of the c**ts to arrive and force their way into Europe.
    You are quite literally an awful human being.
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    (Original post by fr0sr_)
    PRECISELY SO

    All these utter imbeciles seem to love to be seen as the "better person" by patting these economic migrant scum on the back for entering Europe illegally and camping out like the scummy ****ers they are.

    Whereas in the reality they're merely encouraging more of the c**ts to arrive and force their way into Europe.
    wanting to live under better economic conditions hardly makes them "scum" - it is a legitimate desire

    however, pursued by illegal means : and, we are sending mixed signals, so they have a reasonable hope that they will ultimately succeed
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    (Original post by jedanselemyia)
    The living conditions are horrible and the people quite admirable.
    Calais feels very guarded, double rows of electric fences and French CRS police vans everywhere.
    Was it like butlins? Or better?
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    wanting to live under better economic conditions hardly makes them "scum" - it is a legitimate desire

    however, pursued by illegal means : and, we are sending mixed signals, so they have a reasonable hope that they will ultimately succeed
    The fact that they've had the chance to live under better economic conditions hundreds/thousands of miles away from the UK, and have merely taken this further FAR longer journey for our hand-outs and benefits renders them as "scum".

    In reality we should destroy "The Jungle" and forcibly deport all citizens back to outside the Syrian border, thus to allow them to follow the legal process of registering as a refugee at the first safe country they arrive at.

    Now THAT is something I'd be willing to invest my taxpaying income on.
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    (Original post by iEthan)
    You are quite literally an awful human being.
    Thanks.
    I'd rather not see this country destroyed by those criminals though - if it's all the same to you.
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    (Original post by fr0sr_)
    Thanks.
    I'd rather not see this country destroyed by those criminals though - if it's all the same to you.
    No, it's not the same to me. With respect, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It'd do the world some good if you gained some perspective before making such comments.
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    (Original post by iEthan)
    No, it's not the same to me. With respect, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It'd do the world some good if you gained some perspective before making such comments.
    So, if you had your way; would you accept all of these economic migrants into the country?
    I'm genuinely curious of what you would do as a solution to this problem.
 
 
 
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