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Tories now with a 14pt lead in the polls... Watch

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    True.
    I don't think we can dismiss the influence of money though, which the tories have always had a lot more of. That's not some lefty looney save the world idea, just an observation.

    No question the tories are the 'natural party of government' though.
    But why do they have more money? Labour used to have vast amounts more money than tories...

    For much of the 80s labour had more money but could not turn it into votes.

    And then look at bernie sanders probably doesnt have 10% of the money of clinton but is givng her a good run.
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    (Original post by Reue)
    Perhaps it's not a case of all tory supporters being 'dumb' but instead you being unable or unwilling to appreciate their reasoning?

    Far more likely that the issue lies with yourself rather than a large segment of the population traditionally associated with the better educated and wealthy.
    Oh come on I was messing with you with my original post I was exaggerating my actual position for dramatic effect. I can understand the other point of view I just don't agree with it and naturally it results in a tiff with people who are that way inclined.

    Hahaha that last paragraph. Yeah obviously people want to preserve the wealth they were born into. You do know voting Tory won't give you a free ride on the high society train?
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    (Original post by draculaura)
    David Cameron > cares about the people in Britain

    Jeremy Corbyn > cares about the people outside of Britain (the only thing I remember him doing recently is visit the people in Calais)

    Sure, the Tories - and David Cameron - can make mistakes at times, and propose quite a lot of things I disagree with, but they're a damn sight better than Labour.
    This really, wasn't it Labour who left us in a mess in the first place?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Er, no we haven't. I specifically disputed this in my previous post: the validity of what I say has nothing to do with my party affiliation; it is open to attack and scrutiny on the basis of its content, but it's not open to a 'yeah, but you're a Tory' type dismissal.



    I don't support a British political party at present, but that doesn't mean I haven't made my mind up about this particular poll... I've clearly said that I think that a 'lesser of two evils' mindset is a more probable cause for the Tories' lead than masochism and sadism on the part of the electorate.

    Labour under Corbyn is doing pretty badly in the polls in terms of having the public's trust on major issues. Given the reality of the two-party system, it's perfectly possible for people who don't feel strongly either way to support the Tories at the present time because they're seen to be more competent than Labour -- nothing to do with this 'they're all masochists' guff.



    It's alright to make an assumption of that kind privately, but dismissing an argument that I've made on the basis of such an assumption is to risk looking like a fool.
    Oh calm down. Don't waste your energy.

    Haha I didn't say it was I was just highlighting a potential bias in what you were saying. Is that not what you do in a debate? I wasn't ready to stop if you had said you were a Tory, I expected a response... And would have responded accordingly with more of an understanding of where you're coming from. That is why we have political parties isn't it? So that people can be highlighted as having a particular set of views?

    Okay... So never occurred to you that I might have been being a bit tongue in cheek in bringing in masochism and sadism??? I was dressing up my actual position for dramatic effect. And none of us would be in here slapping each other silly if we didn't love the drama.

    I know it makes you feel good saying 'all that guff' so you can whatever makes you feel good you know?

    I risked looking like a fool when I quickly replied rather than elaborating and it's fun you should try it don't get so bogged down this is not what your parents paid for.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The thing about money though is that I remember during the election you and other lefties saying how the Tories were outspending labour 3:1 and ****, then last month when the figures were actually published it was only about 10% more, I actually really want to see just how massive the Tory war chest is ATM and how much bigger it will be in 5 years.

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    Figures can be manipulated. The tories have massive corporation funding.

    Only a few weeks ago the tories tried to pass an act which effectively would have cut Labour's income by £6 million a year. Why should they place restrictions on union funding to Labour yet not place any on corporation funding to the tories?

    Apparently it's super undemocratic when unions with a democratically elected leader, acting on behalf of the workers lobby, yet when Corporations with unelected leaders lobby it's absolutely fine.

    When Unions threaten to strike in protest of their members facing a pay cut that's 'holding the country to ransom', yet when Corporations threaten to move offshore and take thousands of jobs with them if we make them pay their taxes, that's absolutely fine.

    The double standards are astonishing.
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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    But why do they have more money? Labour used to have vast amounts more money than tories...

    For much of the 80s labour had more money but could not turn it into votes.

    And then look at bernie sanders probably doesnt have 10% of the money of clinton but is givng her a good run.
    Well largely because tory policies favour wealthy corporations and people, that's just a fact, so they contribute. Whereas Labour policies (at least in theory) favour poorer people.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Figures can be manipulated. The tories have massive corporation funding.

    Only a few weeks ago the tories tried to pass an act which effectively would have cut Labour's income by £6 million a year. Why should they place restrictions on union funding to Labour yet not place any on corporation funding to the tories?

    Apparently it's super undemocratic when unions with a democratically elected leader, acting on behalf of the workers lobby, yet when Corporations with unelected leaders lobby it's absolutely fine.

    When Unions threaten to strike in protest of their members facing a pay cut that's 'holding the country to ransom', yet when Corporations threaten to move offshore and take thousands of jobs with them if we make them pay their taxes, that's absolutely fine.

    The double standards are astonishing.
    I'll trot out the standard answer on the unions. There are if memory serves me well 15 affiliated unions, only 3 of them state that by default they are funds labour and none make clear that members can opt out, let alone how. Naturally, of it becomes an opt in system the unions will be shouting from the rafters about how you can and making oot in really clear. Is it not a massive deception to effectively force members in, and more democratic to make members who wish to back the party to opt in rather than making people opt out and make it awkward to do so?

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Figures can be manipulated. The tories have massive corporation funding.

    Only a few weeks ago the tories tried to pass an act which effectively would have cut Labour's income by £6 million a year. Why should they place restrictions on union funding to Labour yet not place any on corporation funding to the tories?

    Apparently it's super undemocratic when unions with a democratically elected leader, acting on behalf of the workers lobby, yet when Corporations with unelected leaders lobby it's absolutely fine.

    When Unions threaten to strike in protest of their members facing a pay cut that's 'holding the country to ransom', yet when Corporations threaten to move offshore and take thousands of jobs with them if we make them pay their taxes, that's absolutely fine.

    The double standards are astonishing.


    I think there been s few allegations of overspending: most recently in my native Rochester: http://www.kentonline.co.uk/medway/n...erspend-90627/


    I can say they really did throw the kitchen sink at that one, forevery leaflet labour or ukip sent out they sent out four.
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    (Original post by Little Popcorns)
    Oh calm down. Don't waste your energy.
    I am calm.

    Haha I didn't say it was I was just highlighting a potential bias in what you were saying. Is that not what you do in a debate? I wasn't ready to stop if you had said you were a Tory, I expected a response... And would have responded accordingly with more of an understanding of where you're coming from. That is why we have political parties isn't it? So that people can be highlighted as having a particular set of views?
    I'm not a huge fan of political parties and, even if I was a fan and a member of one, I wouldn't hesitate to criticise stupidity in my own camp. Some people can be biased in that way, but I think I have a good track record of being aware of the shortcomings of people whom I agree with or admire.

    Okay... So never occurred to you that I might have been being a bit tongue in cheek in bringing in masochism and sadism??? I was dressing up my actual position for dramatic effect. And none of us would be in here slapping each other silly if we didn't love the drama.
    Not really, no. Even with the limitations on expression placed by a text-based platform, there was nothing in your post that suggested you were being humorous and, given my previous encounters with you, it wasn't really possible to give you the benefit of the doubt there.

    I know it makes you feel good saying 'all that guff' so you can whatever makes you feel good you know?
    I actually don't know what you mean here. Let's discuss the substance rather than the word choices, shall we? :beard:

    I risked looking like a fool when I quickly replied rather than elaborating and it's fun you should try it don't get so bogged down this is not what your parents paid for.
    What's that supposed to mean? I went to a state comprehensive. :erm:
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Please delete this post.

    I was avoiding the match until i could watch MOTD tonight. At least others won't have the result spoilered if you delete it now.
    Arsenal won, Man city lost 2-1, liverpool won 6-0 - did i miss anyone guys?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I am calm.

    I'm not a huge fan of political parties and, even if I was a fan and a member of one, I wouldn't hesitate to criticise stupidity in my own camp. Some people can be biased in that way, but I think I have a good track record of being aware of the shortcomings of people whom I agree with or admire.

    Not really, no. Even with the limitations on expression placed by a text-based platform, there was nothing in your post that suggested you were being humorous and, given my previous encounters with you, it wasn't really possible to give you the benefit of the doubt there.

    I actually don't know what you mean here. Let's discuss the substance rather than the word choices, shall we? :beard:

    What's that supposed to mean? I went to a state comprehensive. :erm:
    That's good there's a lot of politicians who do that. Sometimes to their benefit sometimes to their detriment. Still having political parties as identifiers does make things a bit 'easier' for everyone involved. I'm not saying you need to slot yourself into one though if you're so undecided.

    Internet for you.

    Yes we should because I was going to start talking about sadism and masochism and you don't really like that do you

    That's good I like that about you.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Well largely because tory policies favour wealthy corporations and people, that's just a fact, so they contribute. Whereas Labour policies (at least in theory) favour poorer people.
    But these wealthy corporations gave money to Blair even though they may have been better off under the tories. At the end of the day people back winners. If they thought labour were credible and could win they would get the money.
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    (Original post by Little Popcorns)
    You do know voting Tory won't give you a free ride on the high society train?
    Indeed, hard work and personal progression will give me that.
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    (Original post by Reue)
    Indeed, hard work and personal progression will give me that.
    Right
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I'm not a fan of online polls myself which is why i never opened the thread however even if we take ICM, Ipsos and Comres for the Mail (they are employed by multiple papers and use telephone polling for their polls for the Mail) then we still see an average lead of 6.3% in Jan in polls which the polling council concluded were underestimating the Tory vote due to incorrect samples. Indeed its notable that the ICM boss actually issued a statement with the poll which essentially said that it was highly likely that they had Labour too high and the Tories too low.

    Right now the Tories are looking at gains compared to their general election position in reality and this time in the last parliament Miliband was tied if not ahead.

    One thing to note is that since Jan 25th we've not had a single poll with less than a 9% lead, This may be an anomaly but it's possible that this Europe deal has done the Tories some favors (perhaps the electorate sees that they really are getting a referendum).
    off topic ...
    who is the the face in your avatar?
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    (Original post by TeeEm)
    off topic ...
    who is the the face in your avatar?
    Annakin - Episode 3.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Annakin - Episode 3.
    thanks
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    I'd vote Labour.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    True.
    I don't think we can dismiss the influence of money though, which the tories have always had a lot more of. That's not some lefty looney save the world idea, just an observation.

    No question the tories are the 'natural party of government' though.
    I did some research to try and contest your point. Figures from 2010 ( could't find anything for 2015) Tories spent £16,682,874, Labour £8,009,483. Ouch.
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    (Original post by skeptical_john)
    Last week there was a doctors' strike, supported by a majority of the public. Here's how Labour have capitalised:

    CON: 41% (+1)
    LAB: 27% (-2)
    UKIP: 15% (-1)
    LDEM: 9% (+2)
    GRN: 3% (-)
    (via ComRes online)


    Labour now closer to UKIP than Conservatives
    Funny that because they Sadiq Khan is beating Zac Goldsmith in the polls in the London Mayoral Race and Labour is likely to keep power in Wales. Moreover, Labour has a good ground game in the Bristol Mayoral Election. And to be honest with you after the 2015 General Election Polls I dont think we should be relying on opinion polls for a while.
 
 
 
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