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Why multiculturalism doesn't work Watch

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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    1. Multiculturalism is a catalyst to war and conflict. Lets take this scenario for example; In a chemistry lab, all the different chemicals are stored separately in their own special bottles specifically designed for the chemical that is being stored within. What happens when you decide to pour all those chemicals in one large vat? There's likely going to be an explosion that'd tear the roof off. Different places have different societal values and it's impossible to ask people to just 'respect' that. Some people can and some people can not. For example some cultures accept child marriages and think sex with minors is justifiable but becasue of my own upbringing and personal morals I just can't accept it and I never will. I personally can not even share a room with someone that thinks that that's okay. It's not difficult how to see how that could possibly lead to conflict and tensions between two groups. Which brings me to my next point.
    The problem with your example is that multiculturalism doesn't accept every culture, at least it doesn't in the UK. Not all chemicals will be allowed to mix. For example, we would not allow child marriages or FGM in the UK but we would allow foreign cuisine, religions and languages.

    As another poster said, multiculturalism in the UK is the practice of your cultural values within the confines of the law.


    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    By no means a solution but some advice:
    When deciding to relocate to a new country you must make this decision. Are you going to be able to accept the laws, societal values and culture of the host nation? Are you going to be kind and respectful to locals even if you don't agree with their culture? Will you make an effort to learn the language of the host nation you are moving to? Are you going to try and integrate into the society and not form cliques and seperate communities that refuse to mix with others?
    If the answer to all these is no then I think it's best to stay in your own country.
    Why not?

    If I wanted to move to, say, France I'd probably have to learn the language out of necessity but why wouldn't integrate any further. I wouldn't adopt Catholicism or start eating traditional French dishes.

    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    Tldr: Multiculturalism doesn't work effectively anywhere
    Do you think that the UK wouldn't be a multicultural place without foreign cultures/people?
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    (Original post by thatbrodou)
    Tldr: Multiculturalism doesn't work effectively anywhere


    Conflicting opinions are welcome
    Please state which culture still permits childsex, also humens are not simply chemicals that explode when mixed. You mention the erosion of culture as though it's some form of new threat pretty much all cultures are mixtures of previous cultures, this is evident in the etymology of words within respective languages i.e. the word "pyjamas" has persian origin.
    While, cliques are sometimes formed among first generation migrants they usually disappear with first generation migrants as the children will become integrated via the host nation's education system, the same can be said for language.
    Pretty much all current cultural differences are minor and reconcilable, due to globalism caused by new forms of communication and industry the planet has basically formed a consensus decision on what is and is not permissible.


    I live in a very multicultural area and have friends from a variety ethnic and socail backgrounds, to me diversity is a part of society. Functioning multicultural societies are not a dream but an inevitable future in the making, like it or not migration will take place due to various push and pull factors unique to nations eventually all societies will probably end up multiculturel and nations will find ways to deal with it, it's already happening[/QUOTE]

    No, not all societies will end up multicultural. Take a look at Japan. It is a rich developed society which is almost entirely ethnically Japanese. And that is the way they are going to keep it.

    Very sensible.

    Diversity means a loss of freedom.
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    (Original post by thatbrodou)
    Pretty much all current cultural differences are minor and reconcilable, due to globalism caused by new forms of communication and industry the planet has basically formed a consensus decision on what is and is not permissible.
    this is not really true

    there are quite a few issues on which there are strong divisions :

    -sexual area (child marriages, forced marriages, treatment of adultery, homosexuality, premarital relations, abortion, genital mutilation,
    - classical freedoms : freedom of press, of religion (including apostasy), of speech, of reunion
    -representative democracy and right to political opposition and organisation
    -economic/ rules : freedom of economic initiative, welfare State
    -justice area : physical punishments, death penalty. Legal status of women in marriage, divorce, inheritance etc

    etc etc

    I'm sure that quite a few other points could be added
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    The problem with your example is that multiculturalism doesn't accept every culture, at least it doesn't in the UK. Not all chemicals will be allowed to mix. For example, we would not allow child marriages or FGM in the UK but we would allow foreign cuisine, religions and languages.

    As another poster said, multiculturalism in the UK is the practice of your cultural values within the confines of the law.




    Why not?

    If I wanted to move to, say, France I'd probably have to learn the language out of necessity but why wouldn't integrate any further. I wouldn't adopt Catholicism or start eating traditional French dishes.



    Do you think that the UK wouldn't be a multicultural place without foreign cultures/people?


    Maybe that's the way you see it but most multicultural ideologies state that all cultures(every aspect of that culture) within a state should remain distinct and must have equal respect and according to another poster in this thread that's the policy in the UK.


    Why wouldn't you? What is the point of moving to another country permanently if you dont plan on integrating into the society? Why don't you just stay in your own country? It's not respectful to the host country.
    Besides I don't remember France being a predominantly Catholic country.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    I agree with this to an extent. I agree multicultralism does fuel racism but there are other factors that fuels racism such as lack of education, upbringing and media. On the contrary, doesn't mean that multicultralism doesn't work, it just means that it will only work if we get rid of the other factors that cause people to be prejudice to a certain culture or group of cultures, only then I think multicultralism will work.

    Furthermore, think members of certain cultures are quite ethnocentric, especially the elderly ones because of what they may have experienced when they migrated to a different country. As soon as you go down the ladder of generations, there it seems that the number of ethnocentric people decrease. Why?

    1. Education, especially here, has been made for this multicultral society to prevent any prejudice and discrimination. The education system teaches us to respect our differences and appreciate our similarities. As we go further in generations, peoples views may be different from previous generations about things such as this topic. If we give it a few years racism will decrease greatly.

    2. The generations upon generations will bring their children up differently from there predecessors because they live in a host country unlike their parents and also links in with education. The education system might be different there and there might not be a lot of educated people in home country.

    Therefore yes, multicultralism doesn't work but that doesn't mean it will never work if we don't do something about the other factors that contribute to lack of intergration.
    All of this depends upon what your definition of multiculturalism is.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
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    My first problem with what you've written is that you're not arguing against multiculturalism, you're arguing against certain examples of multiculturalism that you disagree with. Different cultures can coexist, there are plenty of examples of multiple cultures coexisting perfectly peacefully. If two cultures are unwilling to coexist peacefully or the difference between them is too great then it wouldn't exactly be surprising if tensions arise but that's not something intrinsic to 'multiculturalism'. Of course if you smash two wildly different cultures together with little thought about how to deal with these tensions, you're going to get problems.

    Secondly, whilst I understand why some people find the idea of locking yourself up in your own little country and not getting involved in the world attractive, that's not a particularly sustainable point of view. As human society becomes more advanced and more powerful, there is a very strong incentive for encouraging international homogeneity and cooperation. If there are barriers to multiculturalism (and I'm not going to argue that those barriers don't exist) then it is in our best interest to overcome those barriers.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    My first problem with what you've written is that you're not arguing against multiculturalism, you're arguing against certain examples of multiculturalism that you disagree with. Different cultures can coexist, there are plenty of examples of multiple cultures coexisting perfectly peacefully. If two cultures are unwilling to coexist peacefully or the difference between them is too great then it wouldn't exactly be surprising if tensions arise but that's not something intrinsic to 'multiculturalism'. Of course if you smash two wildly different cultures together with little thought about how to deal with these tensions, you're going to get problems.

    Secondly, whilst I understand why some people find the idea of locking yourself up in your own little country and not getting involved in the world attractive, that's not a particularly sustainable point of view. As human society becomes more advanced and more powerful, there is a very strong incentive for encouraging international homogeneity and cooperation. If there are barriers to multiculturalism (and I'm not going to argue that those barriers don't exist) then it is in our best interest to overcome those barriers.
    You say that there are societies in which people of different cultures co exist completely peacefully. Can I get some examples?

    Unless it's people from different ethnic groups that decide to compromise aspects of their culture in order to assimilate into one national identity (which doesn't even always work as certain ethnic groups absolutely refuse to do this) then that can't really be seen as full multiculturalism at least not according to it's most popular definition which is many different people living with every aspect of their cultural heritage even outside the confines of the law of the host state ( The laws of that state having to be changed to appease cultural minorities) And all those cultures must remain distinct and uncompromised.

    When you have the scenario above you get a host of problems like ethnic nepotism.
    This may be interesting:


    Ethologist Frank Salter writes:Relatively homogeneous societies invest more in public goods, indicating a higher level of public altruism. For example, the degree of ethnic homogeneity correlates with the government's share of gross domestic product as well as the average wealth of citizens. Case studies of the United States, Africa and South-East Asia find that multi-ethnic societies are less charitable and less able to cooperate to develop public infrastructure. Moscow beggars receive more gifts from fellow ethnics than from other ethnies. A recent multi-city study of municipal spending on public goods in the United States found that ethnically or racially diverse cities spend a smaller portion of their budgets and less per capita on public services than do the more homogeneous cities.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    You say that there are societies in which people of different cultures co exist completely peacefully. Can I get some examples?

    Unless it's people from different ethnic groups that decide to compromise aspects of their culture in order to assimilate into one national identity (which doesn't even always work as certain ethnic groups absolutely refuse to do this) then that can't really be seen as full multiculturalism at least not according to it's most popular definition which is many different people living with every aspect of their cultural heritage even outside the confines of the law of the host state ( The laws of that state having to be changed to appease cultural minorities) And all those cultures must remain distinct and uncompromised.

    When you have the scenario above you get a host of problems like ethnic nepotism.
    This may be interesting:
    Lots of foriegn people live peacefully in Britain. Hundreds of thousands of Irish, American, EU, Chinese, Austrailas live in Britain with no issues at all.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    You say that there are societies in which people of different cultures co exist completely peacefully. Can I get some examples?

    Unless it's people from different ethnic groups that decide to compromise aspects of their culture in order to assimilate into one national identity (which doesn't even always work as certain ethnic groups absolutely refuse to do this) then that can't really be seen as full multiculturalism at least not according to it's most popular definition which is many different people living with every aspect of their cultural heritage even outside the confines of the law of the host state ( The laws of that state having to be changed to appease cultural minorities) And all those cultures must remain distinct and uncompromised.

    When you have the scenario above you get a host of problems like ethnic nepotism.
    This may be interesting:
    By and large, different cultures in the UK do get along with each other. There are communities from practically every country on earth in the UK; as far as I'm aware, the UK has not fallen into a state of anarchy as a result of this. If you take a look at this list here, I don't think you have a problem with 95% of them. Of course, lots of those communities are from westernised countries (that is still multiculturalism though) but there are plenty of communities from non-western countries that have managed to integrate very successfully whilst maintaining their own traditions.

    So let's make a gross generalisation and talk about the 100,000-strong Chinese community in the UK. Do they maintain their culture and traditions in the UK? Of course. But I don't think I'm going to hear you start complaining about how we need to throw Chinese immigrants out of the country, despite the fact that they maintain their foreign cultural identity. So your problem isn't multiculturalism, your problem is specific cultures.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    By and large, different cultures in the UK do get along with each other. There are communities from practically every country on earth in the UK; as far as I'm aware, the UK has not fallen into a state of anarchy as a result of this. If you take a look at this list here, I don't think you have a problem with 95% of them. Of course, lots of those communities are from westernised countries (that is still multiculturalism though) but there are plenty of communities from non-western countries that have managed to integrate very successfully whilst maintaining their own traditions.

    So let's make a gross generalisation and talk about the 100,000-strong Chinese community in the UK. Do they maintain their culture and traditions in the UK? Of course. But I don't think I'm going to hear you start complaining about how we need to throw Chinese immigrants out of the country, despite the fact that they maintain their foreign cultural identity. So your problem isn't multiculturalism, your problem is specific cultures.
    Of course. I think that's the honest answer. Some cultures assimilate better than others.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    this is not really true

    there are quite a few issues on which there are strong divisions :

    -sexual area (child marriages, forced marriages, treatment of adultery, homosexuality, premarital relations, abortion, genital mutilation,
    - classical freedoms : freedom of press, of religion (including apostasy), of speech, of reunion
    -representative democracy and right to political opposition and organisation
    -economic/ rules : freedom of economic initiative, welfare State
    -justice area : physical punishments, death penalty. Legal status of women in marriage, divorce, inheritance etc

    etc etc

    I'm sure that quite a few other points could be added
    While its true that many these practices do take place, many of them do so ilegally and only within tribal areas of certain nations i.e. FGM, the same can be said about child sex and forced marige. While othere things such as treatment of adultery or treatment of homosexuality os often a leagle matter as well as one of public opinion it is not as if people have not learnt to accept it the odds of a migrant coming in and attacking other minority groups is low, if they were so of put by it they would not migrate (as is the case with my parents). With refrance to democratic factors this is entirely a government matter, i strongly doubt somone who WANTS and is able to live in a dictatorship would migrate to a democracy. On classical freedoms, things like freedom of religion is the very foundation of a multicultural society, no migrate would object to that.
    In the justice area, dictatorships aside criminal offences are more or less universal aside from sex offences like homosexuality, public displays of affection or pornography the laws are similar and the differences can be reconciled over time especially with the transition of genrations even if first gen migrates find it hard to integrate their children probably won't.
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    I am just happy I will not be around for another 100 years or so ...
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    All of this depends upon what your definition of multiculturalism is.
    Multiculturalism - the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles.

    That is multicultralism by definition. I don't think it should have to depend on how people define multicultralism. If people define it differently, it leads to misunderstanding and errors.
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    (Original post by TeeEm)
    I am just happy I will not be around for another 100 years or so ...
    Where are you going for 100 years or so?
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    No, not all societies will end up multicultural. Take a look at Japan. It is a rich developed society which is almost entirely ethnically Japanese. And that is the way they are going to keep it.

    Very sensible.

    Diversity means a loss of freedom.[/QUOTE]

    Japan may be homogeneous right now but you'll notice they suffer from an ageing population and cosequential service gap, also if you look at cities such as Tokyo and areas like Akihabara you'll notice it is, if very slowly becoming more diverse, it is a necessity if they wish to enter the modern era.
    Also, why is diversity the loss of freedom? That statement makes no sense to me.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    By and large, different cultures in the UK do get along with each other. There are communities from practically every country on earth in the UK; as far as I'm aware, the UK has not fallen into a state of anarchy as a result of this. If you take a look at this list here, I don't think you have a problem with 95% of them. Of course, lots of those communities are from westernised countries (that is still multiculturalism though) but there are plenty of communities from non-western countries that have managed to integrate very successfully whilst maintaining their own traditions.

    So let's make a gross generalisation and talk about the 100,000-strong Chinese community in the UK. Do they maintain their culture and traditions in the UK? Of course. But I don't think I'm going to hear you start complaining about how we need to throw Chinese immigrants out of the country, despite the fact that they maintain their foreign cultural identity. So your problem isn't multiculturalism, your problem is specific cultures.

    I still think you're operating on a different definition of multiculturalism than I am. And I'm sure there's a different name for what you're talking about but I will have to search that later.
    The people you are referring to that live 'peacefully' have in one way or another compromised their full culture in order to fit in to with the culture of the host nation.
    Plus if you read my post you'd see that I specified that keeping some of your culture that could benefit your host nation and trying as much as possible to integrate is a means to stop most of the problems multiculturalism causes in society.
    In the cases you're referring to, these people are all adhering to the general culture of the nation they moved to.


    It's not that specific cultures assimilate better than others. It's that specific people assimilate better. You can have people from any culture at all not willing to integrate. For example on this thread some one said aside from learning some French to get by they refuse to integrate further into French society despite the similarities between the two cultures.


    This isn't some anti immigration tirade, as I'm a soon to be immigrant myself. I'm not advocating for people of different cultures to be kicked out of the west. I'm talking about generally all over the world, expecting people of different cultures to live together without any aspect of their culture being compromised is just asking for trouble.
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    Does anyone think people and goblins can live peacefully alongside each other?
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    I still think you're operating on a different definition of multiculturalism than I am. And I'm sure there's a different name for what you're talking about but I will have to search that later.
    The people you are referring to that live 'peacefully' have in one way or another compromised their full culture in order to fit in to with the culture of the host nation.
    Plus if you read my post you'd see that I specified that keeping some of your culture that could benefit your host nation and trying as much as possible to integrate is a means to stop most of the problems multiculturalism causes in society.
    In the cases you're referring to, these people are all adhering to the general culture of the nation they moved to.


    It's not that specific cultures assimilate better than others. It's that specific people assimilate better. You can have people from any culture at all not willing to integrate. For example on this thread some one said aside from learning some French to get by they refuse to integrate further into French society despite the similarities between the two cultures.

    This isn't some anti immigration tirade, as I'm a soon to be immigrant myself. I'm not advocating for people of different cultures to be kicked out of the west. I'm talking about generally all over the world, expecting people of different cultures to live together without any aspect of their culture being compromised is just asking for trouble.
    Wikipedia says: "Multiculturalism describes the existence, acceptance or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction". There's nothing there that specifies that these incoming cultures have to behave as personified overseas territories of their country of origin, it simply means that they are maintaining cultural traditions. Multiculturalism and integration are not mutually exclusive. If your definition of multiculturalism is literally that people expect to be able to behave in precisely the same way as they would in their homeland then sure, that's a problem, but that's fairly self-evident and it's not the definition that most people use.

    It's completely true that the ease of integration will depend on individuals as well as cultural differences. However, once again, the fact that 15% of the British population was born abroad yet we still operate within a civilised, law-abiding society proves that different cultures are completely capable of coexisting. It is not asking for trouble. And in an increasingly globalised world where the incentive for international cooperation is very strong, there's a really powerful incentive for cultural mixing.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    Maybe that's the way you see it but most multicultural ideologies state that all cultures(every aspect of that culture) within a state should remain distinct and must have equal respect and according to another poster in this thread that's the policy in the UK.

    Why wouldn't you? What is the point of moving to another country permanently if you dont plan on integrating into the society? Why don't you just stay in your own country? It's not respectful to the host country.
    Besides I don't remember France being a predominantly Catholic country.
    I've always known multiculturalism as coexistence. So, people from different backgrounds and different cultures working and living in the same communities and at peace.

    I could move there for many reasons. I could have found a job there, or may have had relatives in the country. I could move there for the climate too if I were retired and such. Just because I move to a country doesn't necessarily mean I care or should care about the culture, provided I live within the law. And yes, France is quite Catholic.
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    (Original post by MrMackyTv)
    Multiculturalism - the co-existence of diverse cultures, where culture includes racial, religious, or cultural groups and is manifested in customary behaviours, cultural assumptions and values, patterns of thinking, and communicative styles.

    That is multicultralism by definition. I don't think it should have to depend on how people define multicultralism. If people define it differently, it leads to misunderstanding and errors.

    That definition you stated doesn't seem to be what anyone who has opposed the OP is referring to though. Everyone is referring to a 'multiculturalism' where people actually integrate into the culture of the host nation which isn't what is implied by the definition you've given. This definition implies that all aspects of the an ethnic group's culture are kept intact.


    If someone could actually give an example of exactly where multiculturalism by the definition you've given (that is without these diverse cultures being compromised at all) with zero problems and complete harmony then I'd revise my stance.


    But that's exactly the case! People are defining it differently (mostly to support their argument) and that is what is causing misunderstandings.
 
 
 
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