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The Paris attacks were successful, and it's our fault Watch

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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    What is your view on Al Shabab then?
    A bad bunch but definitely don't have the same goals.

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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    ISIS poses a nonexistent threat to us
    unfortunately, you have no idea what you are talking about

    ISIS will try to attack again and again, until their reservoir of wannabe martyrs is exhausted (or, alternatively, the heavenly reservoir of wide-eyed virgins)
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    unfortunately, you have no idea what you are talking about

    ISIS will try to attack again and again, until their reservoir of wannabe martyrs is exhausted (or, alternatively, the heavenly reservoir of wide-eyed virgins)
    ISIS aren't trying to attack us, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    ISIS are militants fighting a war in Syria to establish a caliphate, and little more.

    The problem is foreign nationals who are inspired by ISIS. The Paris attackers, Sefiddine Rezgui, the Tunisia museum shooters, the San Bernardino shooters, almost all of them were foreign nationals manipulated and radicalised by ISIS to commit attacks in their name.

    In terms of the ISIS militants in Syria, they are yet to actually attack us, and they never will. ISIS will never invade Britain or Europe or anywhere. The problem is lone wolfs who have been inspired by ISIS to kill westerners in their name.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    The problem is foreign nationals who are inspired by ISIS. (...)
    ISIS will never invade Britain
    you are quibbling

    several of the attackers have fought in Syria in ISIS ranks and are (were) part of ISIS, not simply "inspired by ISIS"

    the fact that they are not Syrian by nationality doesn't make much of a difference : lots more like them where they came from

    if you mean that ISIS is not going to organise a D-day landing on British beaches (for the foreseeable future) then of course you are right

    congrats
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    you are quibbling

    several of the attackers have fought in Syria in ISIS ranks and are part of ISIS

    the fact that they are not Syrian by nationality doesn't make much of a difference : lots more like them where they came from

    if you mean that ISIS is not going to organise a D-day landing on British beaches, then of course you are right

    congrats
    Incorrect. The Paris attackers consisted of 5 French nationals, 2 Belgian nationals and 2 Iraqi nationals. That makes a maximum of 2/9 of them ISIS fighters, assuming that they were actually a part of ISIS.

    And looking at the other attacks,

    Sediffine Rezui (Tunisia beach attacker) was a Libyan student, manipulated by propaganda and also probably a cocaine addict due to the fact that he was found to have traces of cocaine on his body, so he was a foreign national manipulated by ISIS, made worse by being a drug addict, not an ISIS fighter

    San Bernardino shooters - two American citizens who pledged allegiance to ISIS, not members of ISIS

    Tunisia museum attackers - two Tunisian citizens

    And if you look at the list of foiled attacks in the UK, the vast majority of them were not actually ISIS militants, just young, weak minded individuals susceptible to radicalisation and manipulation

    The problem is not ISIS militants, the problem is their propaganda and its capability to cause scaremongering and influence people into committing atrocities in their name, thereby making it look like ISIS has invaded Europe and raising Islamophobia, so that more people join ISIS.

    The fact that they are not Syrian tells us that they are foreign nationals who have been manipulated into joining ISIS. The actual ISIS Syrian militants are fighting in Syria because they know that attacking France or the UK will not help them keep hold of cities like al-Raqqah, Mosul, etc...
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    Incorrect. The Paris attackers consisted of 5 French nationals, 2 Belgian nationals and 2 Iraqi nationals. That makes a maximum of 2/9 of them ISIS fighters, assuming that they were actually a part of ISIS.
    You seem to be under the false impression that only Iraqi or Syrian nationals can be bona fide members of IS. Many of the French and Belgians you mention all had experience of fighting for IS in Syria and had been sent back specifically to perpetrate the Paris outrage.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Yes. The good news is that many Moslems have not read the Koran properly or don't understand it. Even better news is that most who have realise that to follow it in the twenty-first century is not a good idea and not morally tight, as we have moved on from the seventh century.

    Unfortunately, some take a literal view of it (and, to be fair, the Koran itself tells them to) and interpret it in a way that leads to much death and suffering.
    Are you trying to imply that over a billion Muslims live peaceful lives and have integrated themselves into modern society, solely for the reason that they don't actually understand the Quran? And that the few "Muslims" that "do" are, conveniently, the ones that are killing people?

    Makes perfect sense.

    Also on an interesting note, it seems that the Bible seems to contain some pretty violent content. The Bible suggests that the following actions be punishable by death: Murder, Adultery, Sodomy, Bestiality, Rape, Having sex before marriage(only for women), Cursing a parent and even disobeying a parent.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You seem to be under the false impression that only Iraqi or Syrian nationals can be bona fide members of IS. Many of the French and Belgians you mention all had experience of fighting for IS in Syria and had been sent back specifically to perpetrate the Paris outrage.
    Yes they had experience fighting, but most people are under the impression that ISIS soldiers are penetrating the EU migrant system or the American one, they should be able to differentiate between the Syrian ISIS fighters and the foreign nationals who commit terror attacks.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    Yes they had experience fighting, but most people are under the impression that ISIS soldiers are penetrating the EU migrant system or the American one, they should be able to differentiate between the Syrian ISIS fighters and the foreign nationals who commit terror attacks.
    How would they do that if they use clandestine entry routes or false passports?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    How would they do that if they use clandestine entry routes or false passports?
    I'm talking about the people in the House of Commons and anyone who has influence in this scenario, they should realise that no matter how small ISIS becomes, there will always be a supply of foreign radical Muslims who they can recruit. So bombing them 'to defend their nation' isn't going to do much, given that training camps can be put almost anywhere and will be put at increasingly remote locations if they start receiving pressure. Bombing ISIS in Syria will not in any way stop a 'Paris-style attack' because the two issues are separate. Bombing ISIS is the right thing to do, but terrorism has existed for decades already and will continue to exist in adapted forms no matter how many bombs you throw at the militants in Syria.
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    (Original post by Qasim_100)
    Are you trying to imply that over a billion Muslims live peaceful lives and have integrated themselves into modern society, solely for the reason that they don't actually understand the Quran? And that the few "Muslims" that "do" are, conveniently, the ones that are killing people?
    That is true of many. Many others are not integrated into modern society, though. Many western-resident Moslems are not integrated into the country they live in, and the Arabian and Asian-based Moslems are most definitely not part of modern society.

    (Original post by Qasim_100)
    Also on an interesting note, it seems that the Bible seems to contain some pretty violent content. The Bible suggests that the following actions be punishable by death: Murder, Adultery, Sodomy, Bestiality, Rape, Having sex before marriage(only for women), Cursing a parent and even disobeying a parent.
    I agree. Religions can be very nasty, can't they? Fortunately, nearly all Christians have benefited from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, and been educated. They know that ancient laws and superstitions do not trump science and modern morality, so choose to ignore the nasty bits.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    This issue is very easily explained, and it has been happening for some time before the Paris attacks.

    Since the rise of Islamism, global jihad, etc, and the associated attacks, people have naturally been asking questions about the ideology that inspires groups like AQ, ISIS, BH, AS, etc. What they have been finding is implicit, and occasionally explicit, justification for their action in the Quran and sunnah. On top of this, they have been finding permission for other socially unacceptable practices and beliefs. When you add the fact that the Quran must be accepted by Muslims as the literal word of god in its entirety, as fully applicable today as it was 1400 years ago and Muhammad is regarded as the ultimate and perfect model for behaviour, people realise that they are not actually dealing with something like modern Christianity (which is what many people, including myself, assumed). Those who take the time to discuss these issues with Muslims are often shocked by how far they will go to defend and justify some of the medieval practices and beliefs.

    So yes, people are becoming less prepared to simply accept the ubiquitous "But Islam is the Religion of Peace. These people are not Muslims" trope, when the evidence suggests something different.
    The actions of the few don't represent the intentions of a whole group. Many other religions are also burdened with extremist groups.KKK, Anti-Balaka(who have forced Muslims into converting to Christianity as well as cannibalizing whole groups of Muslims), NLFT, NSCN, Assam, Army of God, CSA....I could go on. The "evidence" here also suggests something and using your logic, the actions and intentions of these groups must be shared the whole of Christianity.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    That is true of many. Many others are not integrated into modern society, though. Many western-resident Moslems are not integrated into the country they live in, and the Arabian and Asian-based Moslems are most definitely not part of modern society.
    That is mainly due to cultural factors, due to many Muslims moving to the west from countries where the structure of the society is completely different. Most Muslims in western countries, that are the 2nd or 3rd generation to be born in the country are integrated into society just fine. It is mostly newly immigrated families that struggle to adjust, due to the vast amounts of cultural changes from.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    Incorrect. The Paris attackers consisted of 5 French nationals, 2 Belgian nationals and 2 Iraqi nationals. That makes a maximum of 2/9 of them ISIS fighters, assuming that they were actually a part of ISIS
    the attack was organised by ringleader Abauud (member of ISIS - returned from fighting in Syria in ISIS ranks), who was then killed in Saint Denis in the shootout with police

    as to the attackers :
    Bilal Hadfi, Mohammed-Aggad, Samy Amimour, Chakib Akrouh have been to Syria,http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34832512 and probably also Mostefai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novemb...s#Perpetrators

    but, most likely, they went there for tourism
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    You're wrong. ISIS are extremely organised, well trained and motivated which is why eventually we're going to have to sit down, talk to them and make some concussions.
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    (Original post by Qasim_100)
    . Most Muslims in western countries, that are the 2nd or 3rd generation to be born in the country are integrated into society just fine. It is mostly newly immigrated families that struggle to adjust, due to the vast amounts of cultural changes from.
    I don't have your confidence in that. Many of the rapists in Cologne turned out not to be recent arrivals but non-integrated Moslems whose parents were immigrants, and we seem to have a lot of problems with those that try to control how their children behave, or who they want to marry.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    the attack was organised by ringleader Abauud (member of ISIS - returned from fighting in Syria in ISIS ranks), who was then killed in Saint Denis in the shootout with police

    as to the attackers :
    Bilal Hadfi, Mohammed-Aggad, Samy Amimour, Chakib Akrouh have been to Syria,http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34832512 and probably also Mostefai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novemb...s#Perpetrators

    but, most likely, they went there for tourism
    He was a Belgian national who went to Syria and joined ISIS.

    This is a separate threat from those fighting against Assad, the Kurds and the opposition rebels in Syria.



    The people who are manipulated by ISIS propaganda and join them and then carry out an attack in their name are the ones I am talking about.

    These people are not fighting against Assad, the Kurds and opposition rebels.


    Two separate groups of people, two separate, distinct threats.
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    (Original post by intelligent con)
    You're wrong. ISIS are extremely organised, well trained and motivated which is why eventually we're going to have to sit down, talk to them and make some concussions.
    ISIS are well organised, but compared to other terrorist groups, the only two revolutionary things they offer are a) tax collecting, so very rich, and b) profound ability to radicalise foreign nationals.

    Apart from that, ISIS is on par with Boko Haram, Al-Shabab, Al-Qaeda.

    I'm surprised everyone was so shocked about the beheading videos by Emwazi when beheading hostages has been around for decades.

    In my opinion, the media is responsible, because they can't resist an ISIS vs the USA-style conflict to spread on their headlines, when in reality, worse things are done daily by terrorists who have already existed.

    And you can't actually make the argument that people are living in bad conditions in ISIS-controlled territory, when in North Korea, people are sent to concentration camps and tortured, forced to work, etc.

    So it sickens me that the government is discussing whether or not to bomb ISIS, when in fact they should be aiming to get a long-term peace treaty in Syria, focus on removing Assad, and thereby preventing the influx of immigrants from the region increasing.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    The people who are manipulated by ISIS propaganda and join them and then carry out an attack in their name are the ones I am talking about..
    in other words, ISIS is a very dangerous threat and is organising new attacks in Western European countries, mainly (but not only) by sending back returning "foreign fighters". All European security forces and secret services know this.

    So, we should keep our alert levels high, so as not to be caught off guard again: the danger is quite real, and absolutely not just an artificial creation by our Governments.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    in other words, ISIS is a very dangerous threat and is organising new attacks in Western European countries, mainly (but not only) by sending back returning "foreign fighters". All European security forces and secret services know this.

    So, we should keep our alert levels high, so as not to be caught off guard again: the danger is quite real, and absolutely not just an artificial creation by our Governments.
    ISIS isn't the threat, the threat is these foreign nationals joining. So when anyone talks about bombing ISIS to prevent Paris-style attacks, they are doing no favours. Most of the planning for the Paris attacks took place IN BELGIUM.
 
 
 
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