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    1) the concept that we need to be in a political union (a confederation, more accurately) to trade freely with europe is berserk. mexico freely trades with the EU, but they're not members of the EU - how is this possible when the stay side are implying that we need the EU for our trade? scaremongering. the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU; we're the biggest exporters to them. less than half of our trade is with them. we will thrive outside of the political union. we will finally have the autonomy to make trade deals not in the "european" interest, but rather "our" national interest. that seems very fair. I won't claim that the EU creates 75% of our laws like perhaps some like daniel hannan and nigel farage may do, but it is still a numbers game. it is something like 50% - but both the labour party and conservative party leaders have stated this. this involves both laws, statutory instruments, delegated legislation, case law, etc. so that's half of our laws being made by us (or our representatives) and another half made by those that have almost nothing to do with us.

    2) immigration, within the EU, and regarding EU countries, is uncontrolled. we have no european borders. regardless of our interests regarding employment, housing, wages, local school and hospital places, we can't stop people coming in regardless of the space or other vital considerations. the most important, or at least the second (behind "the economy"], issue in UK politics right now and has been for about a decade "immigration" because the EU has made chaos of our immigration figures. leaving the EU will bring stability and control regarding this very important issue. we are one of the most densely populated nations in the entire world - technically we're the *2nd* most densely populated western nation after belgium. it is time we *finally* sort out this immigration mess. it's not about who's coming (usually) - it's about how many of them are coming in. we want GOOD and SKILLED immigrants, but because of the EU, we can't discriminate between good and bad/unskilled immigrants.

    3) if you believe in democracy, you will see significance in the issue of how we are under a proxy policy of control from the unelected european commission. for example, when do you remember having a say on the election of "lord hill", or "baroness cathy ashton"? the line of power is *incredibly* remote; the UK elects MPs; MPs elect the PM; the PM appoints the commissioner and the commissioners elect the head of the commission. that's not democratic, that's *bureaucratic*. and before I'm told "the EU parliament is elected": 1) the EU parliament is relatively powerless; it has no power to introduce or amend legislation, and has no powers to propose appointees to positions/offices. it can simply say "yes" or "no" which is, for its role, an uncritical rubber stamp position, and 2) the UK makes up something like a tenth of representatives - we get a 10% say, currently, in this rubber stamp chamber. if we left the EU, the UK parliament would give us 100% say on the issues we've given away to the EU. 100%>10%. more democracy is better than less. more localism is better than remote rulership. the ECJ is also, under the EECA1972 sovereign over our own "supreme" court. the UK people ought to be as close as possible to the laws that are allocated to them. there should be legal representation along with legal responsibility. what's worse is that I am fairly sure that we have the WEAKEST parliament in the world concerning "democracies" (the EU parliament, I mean). what parliament other than the EU parliament has no power to propose or amend legislation? they could have made the EU parliament democratic from day one and they STILL haven't.

    4) the EU is a stagnating trade union. it is the only trade bloc in the world that is. the EU is holding us back. if we make free trade deals with all the countries that the EU doesn't., we will do better economically. also, it costs £40 million a day to stay in this declining trade union too. and we get practically nothing in return, materially. because we are a rich country of the union - the money is going to the poorer countries. this is what the idea of union is all about. why should we give away our money (and our world power, on another note) to these countries? why should we be held down into these trade deals which impose illiberal tariffs onto other countries when we could free-trade and gain from it (basic economics!)? I wish I could merely call it a "trade union" like it was in 1972 but it's not. it's a supranational confederate (semi-federal) political union with a flag, an anthem, a currency (for most) and its own leaders.

    5) the idea that we ought to stay in the EU for world power and prestige is either cosmetic or downright imperial. number one - in order to have more power in the EU, the EU would need to have some kind of collective foreign policy. number two - regarding sanctions, the UK can already impose sanctions. if we want to impose sanctions at the same rate as the EU, we can freely do that. number three - who cares about active world power? what is this, the cold war? are we *looking* for another war? it's funny because the people who seem to want power from the EU are usually, hypocritically, those that seem to oppose war. besdies, we already have the UNSC (of which we have a veto power) *and* NATO, *and* the WTO (especially post-EU). sme even say, in realtion to this, that the EU "stops wars" - where is the evidence for this? if anything, the institutional frictions that the EU has generated between major european countries has more likely made things *worse*. if you want to stop wars, then free trade is a brilliant way to do it, but we're not talking about a mere free trade concept any more. we can freely trade via treaties, not political unions. end of story.

    6) the european court of human rights isn't the same thing as the european court of justice. the latter is a body of the EU and the former is a body that was established in 1948. people who think we would be automatically leaving the ECtHR via leaving the EU are either lying or are completely ignorant.

    TSR, this is not a left/right question. more (or less, otherwise) democracy is not a partisan question. opposing "uncontrolled" immigration is *not* racism. supporting a declining trade bloc is not "pro-business".
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    Most likely, people will still vote into the EU because they will just go on what other people say, and they won't research into it thoroughly. I will be voting out of the EU and when is polling day?
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    I usually strongly disagree with many of your views but not this one. Bravo!
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    (Original post by Numero Uno)
    Most likely, people will still vote into the EU because they will just go on what other people say, and they won't research into it thoroughly. I will be voting out of the EU and when is polling day?
    June 23
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    (Original post by Numero Uno)
    Most likely, people will still vote into the EU because they will just go on what other people say, and they won't research into it thoroughly. I will be voting out of the EU and when is polling day?
    Ironic, considering that OP hasn't provided a single fact or statistic. Speculation, misinformation, lies and propaganda. Anyone who's actually looked into the situation wouldn't be voting to leave. Unfortunately people would rather find a nice scapegoat and pretend we'll leave the EU and be a ****ing utopia in 10 years.
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    (Original post by Numero Uno)
    Most likely, people will still vote into the EU because they will just go on what other people say, and they won't research into it thoroughly. I will be voting out of the EU and when is polling day?
    it's june 23rd
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    (Original post by LordMallard)
    June 23
    Thank you tsr bro
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    Well said.
    We will NEVER have another opportunity to come out. Make it count, people!
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    we are overcrowded as it is and with the conservative government at the helm, we the public can only change things for the better!!
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Ironic, considering that OP hasn't provided a single fact or statistic. Speculation, misinformation, lies and propaganda. Anyone who's actually looked into the situation wouldn't be voting to leave. Unfortunately people would rather find a nice scapegoat and pretend we'll leave the EU and be a ****ing utopia in 10 years.
    The only lies, speculation and propaganda prevalent is with the IN crowd. Give it a rest.
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    (Original post by Numero Uno)
    we the public can only change things for the better!!
    You're going to prove yourself very wrong.
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    (Original post by Joel 96)
    Well said.
    We will NEVER have another opportunity to come out. Make it count, people!
    That's what the said about the Scottish Independence Referendum... Now look at what's happening. Immediately after the result was declared they were talking about another.
    There will be plenty of opportunities to make a change you don't need to go so drastic and all out at the first opportunity


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    (Original post by midnightice)
    The only lies, speculation and propaganda prevalent is with the IN crowd. Give it a rest.
    What lies and speculation? I've given facts and studies to back up everything I've said, and been met with Daily Mail commenter-type drivel in response.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Ironic, considering that OP hasn't provided a single fact or statistic. Speculation, misinformation, lies and propaganda. Anyone who's actually looked into the situation wouldn't be voting to leave.
    https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li...lation_density
    ^UK 2nd most densely populated nation state (discounting places like jersey, san marino, etc) after belgium

    https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-w...influenced-eu/
    ^including the law-types I stated, "up to 53%"

    http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/about-us/faqs.html
    http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps.html
    751 MEPs; 73 UK MEPs; roughly 10%

    http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-br...u#.VsizZvmLTIU
    45% of our exports go the EU

    you were saying?
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    (Original post by Numero Uno)
    we are overcrowded as it is and with the conservative government at the helm, we the public can only change things for the better!!
    I don't understand your optimism with the conservatives seeing as they've had 6 years to sort out immigration and have either failed or made things worse...not to be implying that labour/lib dems are better - they're still worse.
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    I agree with the majority of aforementioned points, however immigration from within the EU is actually pretty good for our economy as statistically speaking, EU migrants tend to contribute towards our economy, whereas migrants from outside the EU cost us quite a lot. So, leaving EU will not solve this particular problem.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...20bn-ucl-study
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li...lation_density
    ^UK 2nd most densely populated nation state (discounting places like jersey, san marino, etc) after belgium
    What the **** is this? Yes, the UK is the second most densely populated, if you discount 52 other countries. You can't discount everything that doesn't fit with what you want to believe.

    ...How is this an argument for LEAVING the EU?

    You've still given absolutely nothing to back up your statements on immigration.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    What lies and speculation? I've given facts and studies to back up everything I've said, and been met with Daily Mail commenter-type drivel in response.
    1) I used to hear people saying that "half our exports go to the EU" - it's not half. it's less than half. 45% at the most. therefore, that's a "lie".
    2) "we'll lose jobs if we leave the EU" - if we have more prosperous trade, how on earth can that be true? the jobs we'll lose will either be jobs that never deserved to exist (e.g. the ones that ould be failing without uncompetitive EU subsidies - farming being a prime example all over the EU) or the ones that are the EU bureaucratic offices!
    3) "only 10% of our laws are made by the EU" - I've already answered that lie.
    4) "EU uncontrolled immigration is fine" - in what possible sense?
    5) "the EU parliament is democratic" - fat lie. already explained how.
    6) "we need the EU for power" - we are one of the most powerful countries in the whole world. the EU is like a ball and chain around us if they make us *share* that power. they're even wanting us to give up our UNSC seats too, along with france.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    What the **** is this? Yes, the UK is the second most densely populated, if you discount 52 other countries. You can't discount everything that doesn't fit with what you want to believe.



    ...How is this an argument for LEAVING the EU?

    You've still given absolutely nothing to back up your statements on immigration.
    in the OP I said "the 2nd most densely populated WESTERN nation" - I thought you had seen that. but either way, excuse the fact that I had forgotten to insert that word.

    and regarding that 45%, it is an indication that the EU needs us more than we need them. if it was over 50% I'd be saying something different, though. what are resources without a market?
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    (Original post by 0123456543210)
    I agree with the majority of aforementioned points, however immigration from within the EU is actually pretty good for our economy as statistically speaking, EU migrants tend to contribute towards our economy, whereas migrants from outside the EU cost us quite a lot. So, leaving EU will not solve this particular problem.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...20bn-ucl-study
    which is why I mention factors like employment (more EU immigrants = more local unemployment), housing space (more EU immigrants = less housing space), school and hospital spaces, etc - I wasn't talking about the EU. I could tell you that getting rid of the welfare state, or the minimum wage (etc) would be technically good for the economy regarding simple GDP mathematics (like you are for immigration) but nobody's use *that* logic there like they are here.

    and oh wow, quoting the guardian to prove a guardian-esque view.
 
 
 
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