You know when people say "religion is a choice"...

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Rorschach II
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#1
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#1
you know what I mean?
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z33
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#2
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#2
No what are you on about? Are you high? What even is a choice? Go to sleep m9
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uberteknik
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#3
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#3
Don't be mean.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.
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Student403
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#4
??
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Rorschach II
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#5
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#5
(Original post by z33)
No what are you on about? Are you high? What even is a choice? Go to sleep m9
Saying "people choose their religion whilst..." is an awful argument, even if it furthers my own agendas.

I don't think it's either/or; it's not as simple as that.

I'll give you some context, whenever LGBT advocates say people choose their religion whilst people don't choose their sexual orientation.

Or when people say antisemitism is inherently worse than Islamophobia, because people choose their religion.
That's on a faulty premise. There's more choice, but it's still not as simple as "people choose their religion".
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donutellme
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#6
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#6
(Original post by XcitingStuart)
Saying "people choose their religion whilst..." is an awful argument, even if it furthers my own agendas.

I don't think it's either/or; it's not as simple as that.

I'll give you some context, whenever LGBT advocates say people choose their religion whilst people don't choose their sexual orientation.

Or when people say antisemitism is inherently worse than Islamophobia, because people choose their religion.
That's on a faulty premise. There's more choice, but it's still not as simple as "people choose their religion".
It's more like saying people choose to believe in gravity.

Religious people feel their religion is true, just like gravity etc.
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Rorschach II
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#7
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Okay, I'll explain myself.

People don't always choose their religion, or vice versa.

People don't choose the religion, I dare say, they are indoctrinated into.

But there are people who do choose their religion, and there are people who choose to leave a religion.

So saying it's a choice, which comes up time and time again, is just horribly wrong and poorer logic.

It's not either or, and people can choose a middle ground in their arguments.

Even there's more of an element of choice is better than that though.
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Dinasaurus
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#8
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#8
Religion is a choice compared to sexual orientation, it requires a wilful disregard for empiricism to believe in it.


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Plagioclase
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#9
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#9
I am so confused.
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Rorschach II
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#10
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#10
(Original post by Dinasaurus)
Religion is a choice compared to sexual orientation, it requires a wilful disregard for empiricism to believe in it.


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Isn't saying it like that misrepresenting the issue at hand?

Saying it's only as simple as a choice when compared to sexual orientation, when talking about that matter.

Misrepresenting is almost as bad as lying to be honest.
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Asolare
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#11
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#11
It usually is, but I agree a lot of people can be brainwashed and indoctrinated into following such religious values.
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z33
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#12
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#12
(Original post by XcitingStuart)
Saying "people choose their religion whilst..." is an awful argument, even if it furthers my own agendas.

I don't think it's either/or; it's not as simple as that.

I'll give you some context, whenever LGBT advocates say people choose their religion whilst people don't choose their sexual orientation.

Or when people say antisemitism is inherently worse than Islamophobia, because people choose their religion.
That's on a faulty premise. There's more choice, but it's still not as simple as "people choose their religion".
What of course sexual orientation is not a choice!! But religion? Well some people could be forced into religion but whether they believe it or not is still their CHOICE. Example, I could live in a very super strict Muslim household in some Islamic State and I will have no right what so ever and if I dare say I wanted to leave Islam my safety would be threatened. BUT I may just not believe in Islam and just not tell anyone. I could lie to them and say I'm Muslim when the CHOICE that I'VE made is to leave Islam. Because the idea behind religion is that you believe in it - therefore if you don't believe in it, you are not a member of that religion. It is your choice to believe, your choice to think, but as far as expressing said thoughts goes you may not have much of a choice in that.

However if you're talking brainwashing people does not give them a choice - around 100 years ago I'd have said you're right but right now with the Internet at everyone's fingertips there's no way brainwashing would work since information is easily accessible online. Maybe people grow up without access to it so they don't have any other religion or belief to compare their own to but once they leave their home, or are at school, or at work or anywhere where there is Internet access they can research it. Gaining this information enables them to make a choice.
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EastGuava
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#13
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#13
True, religion is not always a choice, but it is supposed to be a choice
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Carpe Diem Jay
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#14
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#14
(Original post by EastGuava)
True, religion is not always a choice, but it is supposed to be a choice
This.
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frankieboy
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#15
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#15
(Original post by donutellme)
It's more like saying people choose to believe in gravity.

Religious people feel their religion is true, just like gravity etc.
The great thing about gravity is that it exists whether you choose to believe it or not. It is demonstratable, measurable, and quantifiable.

Making it very different from choosing to believe in religion, which has no substance, cannot be demonstrated, has no scientific basis, and is self-contradictory.

I'd say they are at opposite ends of the scale personally.

As far as "Choosing a religion" is concerned - I think a lot of people are coerced subliminally into "believing" a certain religion due to fear, ignorance or downright peer pressure. Edit - and a large bowlful of good old fashioned superstition.
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frankieboy
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#16
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#16
(Original post by z33)
What of course sexual orientation is not a choice!! But religion? Well some people could be forced into religion but whether they believe it or not is still their CHOICE. Example, I could live in a very super strict Muslim household in some Islamic State and I will have no right what so ever and if I dare say I wanted to leave Islam my safety would be threatened. BUT I may just not believe in Islam and just not tell anyone. I could lie to them and say I'm Muslim when the CHOICE that I'VE made is to leave Islam. Because the idea behind religion is that you believe in it - therefore if you don't believe in it, you are not a member of that religion. It is your choice to believe, your choice to think, but as far as expressing said thoughts goes you may not have much of a choice in that.

However if you're talking brainwashing people does not give them a choice - around 100 years ago I'd have said you're right but right now with the Internet at everyone's fingertips there's no way brainwashing would work since information is easily accessible online. Maybe people grow up without access to it so they don't have any other religion or belief to compare their own to but once they leave their home, or are at school, or at work or anywhere where there is Internet access they can research it. Gaining this information enables them to make a choice.
Yeah I know what you mean. I agree. No excuse for it in today's enlightened environment.
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_Bright Eyes
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#17
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#17
(Original post by XcitingStuart)
Okay, I'll explain myself.

People don't always choose their religion, or vice versa.

People don't choose the religion, I dare say, they are indoctrinated into.

But there are people who do choose their religion, and there are people who choose to leave a religion.

So saying it's a choice, which comes up time and time again, is just horribly wrong and poorer logic.

It's not either or, and people can choose a middle ground in their arguments.

Even there's more of an element of choice is better than that though.
Sexual orientation usually isn't a choice, it has a large biological component (as well as a large environmental component, i.e. experience), though I suspect if one had the willpower they could at least alter their preferences somewhat.

Believing in a religion is more of a choice than sexual preference is. There is no biological component compelling someone to subscribe to a religion, but no biological component doesn't necessary mean that it's less of a choice, as we as humans can be brainwashed, or forced to believe in something.

So, a choice doesn't mean the person is always fully free to decide for themselves without any outside influences, this is impossible, as almost every decision we make is influenced by our experiences and/or biology. The question with religion is: how much coercion exists for people believing in a religion?

When I started to type this post I immediately thought, "religion is definitely a choice", and while I would still say that this is usually the case, I would argue that actually, quite a lot of coercion/persuasion/brainwashing goes on. Children are drilled when they are very young to believe that they will go to a unimaginably terrible place where they will be tortured for all of eternity if they do not believe, and will go to the most wonderful place imaginable if they do believe. To a child, who is at a stage where they believe everything that their parents say, this is incredibly strong indoctrination and something that will stay with the person for life. This makes religion less of a choice than it first seems.

So, is religion a choice? Probably yes, but it depends on your definition of choice. It's not black and white, choice is a sliding scale, some things can be more of a choice than other things, depending on the circumstances.
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BWV1007
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#18
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#18
That's like saying the Nazis didn't choose to exterminate Jews because they were indoctrinated.
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donutellme
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#19
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#19
(Original post by frankieboy)
The great thing about gravity is that it exists whether you choose to believe it or not. It is demonstratable, measurable, and quantifiable.

Making it very different from choosing to believe in religion, which has no substance, cannot be demonstrated, has no scientific basis, and is self-contradictory.

I'd say they are at opposite ends of the scale personally.

As far as "Choosing a religion" is concerned - I think a lot of people are coerced subliminally into "believing" a certain religion due to fear, ignorance or downright peer pressure. Edit - and a large bowlful of good old fashioned superstition.
I think I phrrased my view incorrectly. I agree with you mostly.
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frankieboy
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#20
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#20
Re: Sexual orientation - I don't think that's a choice, per se.

How could you "choose" to be gay if you were actually straight? Imagine it. It's not feasible, or possible. You're going to "choose" to start fancying the other sex? I don't think so.
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