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Gove tells a string of fibs in his "why we should leave the EU" statement watch

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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I'm asking you to elaborate on that, clearly, since to proclaim a £93 billion trade deficit to be meaningless offhand is absurd. .
    I will quote your dumb argument once more. It doesn't require much elaboration. I have already done it twice

    " we buy far more from Europe than we sell to".

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    That's a rather facetious remark to make for someone so pedantic about sticking to the topic. The UK's situation with the EU is unique. In that regards referencing how the EU behaves with nations that are clearly not in any way shape or form in a similar situation as the UK is irrelevant..
    Again, being in a unique position does not explain how the UK will stop companies from shifting to Europe to avoid trade barriers or how they will protect the loss in exports to the EU or through EU negotiated free trade deals.

    As I stated before, IF the UK does negotiate a free trade deal, there would have to be significant concessions. Obviously, this is a point that you will have to ignore.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    How? You want us to stay in bed with people you think would have no qualms screwing us over if we were to leave? Now that's dumb.
    No, I wouldn't be stupid enough to be in that position in the first place. That is your problem.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    The comparison was meant to be absurd to illustrate the stupidity of his example.

    He talked SOLELY about Account deficit. A complete red herring.

    The fact is that we depend more upon them than vice versa so we will be at a disadvantage in any trade talks.
    You have ignored my
    point as to how the EU is run and the fact that Germany has more to lose than we do if there were to be a trade war after Brexit.

    Which there won't be.

    Presumably becaue you are unable to respond to it.

    Do you accept that Germany has a huge trade imbalance with us? Yes or no?
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    You have ignored my
    point as to how the EU is run and the fact that Germany has more to lose than we do if there were to be a trade war after Brexit.
    I ignored it because you mischaracterized what i wrote.

    Your second point is wrong anyway.

    6.4% of German Exports go to the UK - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visual...show/all/2013/
    10% of UK Exports go to the Germany - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profil.../#Destinations.

    So, if there was a trade war and we stopped traded, we would lose 10% of our exports and they would lose 6.4%.

    Therefore, we would lose more.

    That is why looking at account deficit solely, is completely pointless. This is what I tried to explain earlier.

    I hope you now accept that we will worse off in a trade war with the EU/Germany.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I will quote your dumb argument once more. It doesn't require much elaboration. I have already done it twice

    " we buy far more from Europe than we sell to".
    How is that a dumb argument? Do you literally need to be spoon fed concepts to be able to understand them?
    You clearly think you're the smartest man in the room- it shouldn't be that hard for you to work out the logic behind that statement, which I've eve been kind enough to elaborate for you.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Again, being in a unique position does not explain how the UK will stop companies from shifting to Europe to avoid trade barriers or how they will protect the loss in exports to the EU or through EU negotiated free trade deals.

    As I stated before, IF the UK does negotiate a free trade deal, there would have to be significant concessions. Obviously, this is a point that you will have to ignore.
    To quote your standard dismissal, 'you have no evidence of that'. The UK is one of the largest consumer markets in the world. If you can not see any incentives for the EU to try and retain an amicable relationship with the UK then frankly this discussion is over and we'll have to agree to disagree.
    As for companies- red herring blah blah moving the goal posts blah blah. Just kidding, only you do that. The pro-Brexit argument is not that there will be no loss whatsoever in trade and business with Europe. The argument is that those losses will be minimal, and more than made up by pursuing trade and business with the far more lucrative and faster growing world outside of the EU.


    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    No, I wouldn't be stupid enough to be in that position in the first place. That is your problem.
    You're swayed by the pessimism and the possibility of threats that currently don't exist. You're literally a hostage to fear. No, that's your problem not mine.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    OR maybe you should actually answer what I write instead of trying to insult me. You cannot though.
    Well this is getting beyond tedious. I'll be here still ready to actually debate when you're willing to drop this patronising superiority complex attitude you have. I've been more than willing to answer points, even to the extent that I elaborate on them in-depth. That concept however seems to offend your sensibilities. Red herring blah blah moving the goal posts blah blah.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    How is that a dumb argument? Do you literally need to be spoon fed concepts to be able to understand them?
    You clearly think you're the smartest man in the room- it shouldn't be that hard for you to work out the logic behind that statement, which I've eve been kind enough to elaborate for you.
    I have already stated why it is.

    You then proceed to change your argument to include volume of trade.


    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    To quote your standard dismissal, 'you have no evidence of that'. The UK is one of the largest consumer markets in the world. If you can not see any incentives for the EU to try and retain an amicable relationship with the UK t.
    I didn't say there were no incentives.

    I said that the EU would be in a stronger position and would force the UK to give concessions.

    Something that you continue to ignore because it doesn't fit into your narrative.


    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    You're swayed by the pessimism and the possibility of threats that currently don't exist. You're literally a hostage to fear. No, that's your problem not mine.
    Nope. I am simply stating facts.

    50% of our exports go to the EU. 20% of EU exports go to the UK.

    Therefore, we are more dependent on them than vice versa. That isn't fear. That is the reality, you choose to ignore.


    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    Well this is getting beyond tedious. I'll be here still ready to actually debate when you're willing to drop this patronising superiority complex attitude you have. I've been more than willing to answer points, even to the extent that I elaborate on them in-depth. That concept however seems to offend your sensibilities. Red herring blah blah moving the goal posts blah blah.
    It is tedious, when you fail to answer any arguments.

    You fail to answer the fact that the EU will be in a stronger bargaining position in any future negotiations and we will worse affected if trade barriers are put up.

    Instead, you expect that they will keep the status quo and the undermine the entire point of having a Trade Union.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    The pro-Brexit argument is not that there will be no loss whatsoever in trade and business with Europe. The argument is that those losses will be minimal, and more than made up by pursuing trade and business with the far more lucrative and faster growing world outside of the EU.
    Again, you are guessing that trade loss with Europe will be minimal.

    The Chinese don't care about opening their markets up to the UK.

    So, when they dump their steel/solar panels on UK Markets, then the UK will have even less power to stop it being outside of the EU.

    The USA have already said they are not interested in negotiating individual free trade deals.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I have already stated why it is.

    You then proceed to change your argument to include volume of trade.

    You've not. You made a meaningless comparison with Malta, and I pointed out why the comparison was silly. Another use also even pointed out how it was an utterly stupid comparison. I further elaborated on that point by including the volume of trade. You then proceeded into a hissy fit about red herrings and moving the goal posts instead of addressing the issue.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I didn't say there were no incentives.

    I said that the EU would be in a stronger position and would force the UK to give concessions.

    Something that you continue to ignore because it doesn't fit into your narrative.
    You've got no evidence the EU would do that. Isn't that your favourite saying?
    I've not 'ignored' anything. I'm debating it. That's sort of why we're conversing at the moment, to argue the points. I do not believe the UK would be forced to give any concessions. A trade war is not in the EU's interests, especially not for nations like Ireland, Belgium and the Netherlands.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Nope. I am simply stating facts.

    50% of our exports go to the EU. 20% of EU exports go to the UK.

    Therefore, we are more dependent on them than vice versa. That isn't fear. That is the reality, you choose to ignore.
    You fear the EU will retaliate with trade barriers if we leave the organisation, rather than come to an amicable settlement. That's fear. You fear the UK will not be able to make up any losses elsewhere. That's fear.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    It is tedious, when you fail to answer any arguments.

    You fail to answer the fact that the EU will be in a stronger bargaining position in any future negotiations and we will worse affected if trade barriers are put up.

    Instead, you expect that they will keep the status quo and the undermine the entire point of having a Trade Union.
    I've answered every point you've made. The fact you may disagree with my responses doesn't change that.
    Of course we will be worse off if trade barriers are put up. We'd also be worse off in a nuclear war with America. Do you think that means the USA will threaten us with nuclear war in a stand off? Neither the EU nor the UK want a trade standoff. It would still hurt the EU tremendously, even if it hurts the UK more. For that reason, I believe the EU will not want a punitive trade war. That's pretty decisively an answer to your point. If you don't agree, you don't agree. It's that simply. There's no need to try and spin it into an argument about debating decorum.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Again, you are guessing that trade loss with Europe will be minimal.

    The Chinese don't care about opening their markets up to the UK.

    So, when they dump their steel/solar panels on UK Markets, then the UK will have even less power to stop it being outside of the EU.

    The USA have already said they are not interested in negotiating individual free trade deals.
    Yes. I believe the EU will not put up trade tariffs with the UK. What do they benefit out of that?

    Being in the EU is precisely why we are unable to stop China dumping steel on the UK. We have no mechanism of dealing with it on our own, but would as an 'independent' state.

    I'm not surprised the Obama administration has taken that line. There'll be a new president by the end of the year. A Republican president would be more likely to negotiate in that respect.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I ignored it because you mischaracterized what i wrote.

    Your second point is wrong anyway.

    6.4% of German Exports go to the UK - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visual...show/all/2013/
    10% of UK Exports go to the Germany - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profil.../#Destinations.

    So, if there was a trade war and we stopped traded, we would lose 10% of our exports and they would lose 6.4%.

    Therefore, we would lose more.

    That is why looking at account deficit solely, is completely pointless. This is what I tried to explain earlier.

    I hope you now accept that we will worse off in a trade war with the EU/Germany.
    What you fail to grasp is that 10% of UK exports is worth $47 billion and around 1.6% of UK GDP, while 6.4% of German exports is worth $89 billion and 2.5% of Germany's GDP.
    The German economy is more dependent on exports. That's common knowledge. A huge trade deficit is massive leverage for the UK.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    You've not. You made a meaningless comparison with Malta, and I pointed out why the comparison was silly.
    It is was "silly" because it was extension of your "silly" logic.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    You've got no evidence the EU would do that. Isn't that your favourite saying?
    I've not 'ignored' anything. I'm debating it.
    Well, you are ignoring it.

    That is why you won't answer the basic point that the EU will be in a stronger position that the UK in any trade talks.

    Instead you want to pretend that they will give Free Trade without concessions ( IE Free Movement) when it would undermine the entire concept of a trade union.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    You fear the EU will retaliate with trade barriers if we leave the organisation, rather than come to an amicable settlement. That's fear. You fear the UK will not be able to make up any losses elsewhere. That's fear.
    Not really. I don't live in the UK so I have no reason to fear it.

    I am simply stating reality that the UK will be worse affected than the EU.

    Again, another point you fail to address and instead you want to talk about "fear" and ignore the issue.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    I've answered every point you've made. The fact you may disagree with my responses doesn't change that. .
    There are at least two points, that you have failed to answer even though I have brought it up multiple times.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Yes. I believe the EU will not put up trade tariffs with the UK. What do they benefit out of that?
    The EU would benefit in the long term as more companies move into the EU to avoid the tariffs.

    As I stated before, the EU is not going to give a Free Trade agreement without concessions since it would undermine the concept of a Union and they are in an economically stronger position that the UK.


    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Being in the EU is precisely why we are unable to stop China dumping steel on the UK. We have no mechanism of dealing with it on our own, but would as an 'independent' state.
    As an independent state, China would have no issue in banning exports from the UK, which end your idea of FTA with them.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I'm not surprised the Obama administration has taken that line. There'll be a new president by the end of the year. A Republican president would be more likely to negotiate in that respect.
    Again, something else made up without evidence.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    What you fail to grasp is that 10% of UK exports is worth $47 billion and around 1.6% of UK GDP, while 6.4% of German exports is worth $89 billion and 2.5% of Germany's GDP.
    The German economy is more dependent on exports. That's common knowledge. A huge trade deficit is massive leverage for the UK.
    Sure, that is my mistake.

    I doubt it will have massive leverage because the Germans are not going to risk the more valuable Union for UK exports.

    Even ignoring that issue, the rest of the Union would have to agree and I doubt that would happen.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    It is was "silly" because it was extension of your "silly" logic.
    That wasn't my logic. You've literally decided to make up a straw man argument to refute. I've elaborated and clarified my position, but you keep ignoring that instead to keep beating down an argument I'm not making.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, you are ignoring it.

    That is why you won't answer the basic point that the EU will be in a stronger position that the UK in any trade talks.

    Instead you want to pretend that they will give Free Trade without concessions ( IE Free Movement) when it would undermine the entire concept of a trade union.
    I see what you're saying. I'm well aware the UK will likely lose the advantages of the EU economic and political union. That's pretty part and parcel of leaving an organisation. There's no reason however for the EU to be against a simply conventional free trade agreement.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Not really. I don't live in the UK so I have no reason to fear it.
    You clearly fear the concept!

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I am simply stating reality that the UK will be worse affected than the EU.
    Your saying that IF the EU engage in a trade/economic war. That's obvious, like I already admitted. The point is it's highly unlikely they will. Yes the UK will no longer have the 'perks' of the EU that comes with being a member, otherwise there's no point of being a member. But there is little reason to suggest they will put up trade tariffs and barriers and attempt to economically damage the UK.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Again, another point you fail to address and instead you want to talk about "fear" and ignore the issue.
    I'm addressing that point in every single post. 'Fear' is very relevant to the issue. Fearing retaliation is not reason to leave an organisation you don't like.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    There are at least two points, that you have failed to answer even though I have brought it up multiple times.
    Which are?

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    The EU would benefit in the long term as more companies move into the EU to avoid the tariffs.
    The UK will still export and need to import hundreds of billions a year regardless of how many companies choose to relocate headquarters or production. The value of the former is certainly much more than the latter.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    As I stated before, the EU is not going to give a Free Trade agreement without concessions since it would undermine the concept of a Union and they are in an economically stronger position that the UK.
    The EU's economic strength relative to the UK doesn't matter. They can either both suffer with a trade war or both prosper with a free trade deal. All Germany will care about is ensuring it continues rinsing the UK out of a net of tens of billions of pounds a year in trade. The EU is not Putin's Russia. It does not play hardball.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    As an independent state, China would have no issue in banning exports from the UK, which end your idea of FTA with them.
    The UK and China have just agreed a £14 billion trade and investment deal. They're not going to suddenly start banning UK imports. Why exactly do you think all the major nations in the world are going to suddenly turn their backs on the UK?

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Again, something else made up without evidence.
    First of all, I don't know why you keep playing this 'evidence' card. It's not applicable to the vast majority of our conversation. You make numerous sweeping statements without 'evidence', which I've been game enough to debate at face value.
    It's not an unreasonable statement to make that the Obama administration has been rather un-cooperative with the UK in numerous diplomatic matters, nor is it to suggest that a Republican president and a UK conservative government may get on better.

    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Sure, that is my mistake.

    I doubt it will have massive leverage because the Germans are not going to risk the more valuable Union for UK exports.

    Even ignoring that issue, the rest of the Union would have to agree and I doubt that would happen.
    Do you not subscribe to the theory/belief that Germany essentially calls the shots? I can see France being the main obstacle politically, but I think Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Poland and Czech Republic will also favour an amicable settlement with the UK.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    That wasn't my logic. You've literally decided to make up a straw man argument to refute. I've elaborated and clarified my position, but you keep ignoring that instead to keep beating down an argument I'm not making.
    [email protected] You changed your argument.

    I didn't ignore anything. I simply copied and pasted your argument. I didn't even change the wording.


    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I see what you're saying. I'm well aware the UK will likely lose the advantages of the EU economic and political union. That's pretty part and parcel of leaving an organisation. There's no reason however for the EU to be against a simply conventional free trade agreement.
    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Yes the UK will no longer have the 'perks' of the EU that comes with being a member, otherwise there's no point of being a member. But there is little reason to suggest they will put up trade tariffs and barriers and attempt to economically damage the UK.
    As I have stated, they are not going to give a Full Free trade Agreement without concessions such as Free Movement to another European Country. They have never done it with another country because it fundamentally undermines the point of being in a trade union .





    (Original post by pol pot noodles)


    Which are?
    We can start with one, that the UK will not have a Free Trade agreement without concessions.



    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    The UK will still export and need to import hundreds of billions a year regardless of how many companies choose to relocate headquarters or production. The value of the former is certainly much more than the latter.
    Well, Imports and Exports would decrease if Companies choose to relocate. Jobs and tax revenue would also be lost. So I don't really see your point.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    The EU's economic strength relative to the UK doesn't matter. They can either both suffer with a trade war or both prosper with a free trade deal. All Germany will care about is ensuring it continues rinsing the UK out of a net of tens of billions of pounds a year in trade. The EU is not Putin's Russia. It does not play hardball..
    Well, obviously, it doesn't matter to you because it shows that the UK will suffer worse in any trade war.

    As I have stated before, the UK is not going to have the same Free Trade deal as it has now without concessions.



    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    The UK and China have just agreed a £14 billion trade and investment deal. They're not going to suddenly start banning UK imports. Why exactly do you think all the major nations in the world are going to suddenly turn their backs on the UK?.
    No, I didn't say that. I said that was specifically in response to a UK Ban on Chinese Goods in illegal Chinese dumping. They will retaliate by banning UK goods which will end your idea of an FTA. They have already done this before, so I don't know why you are surprised.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    First of all, I don't know why you keep playing this 'evidence' card..
    Because it is without evidence.(IE Non EU Trade deals will make up for the EU) On the other hand, I say things that are with evidence. For example, the UK will not have a FTA without concessions which is based on EU negotiations with other European countries.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)

    Do you not subscribe to the theory/belief that Germany essentially calls the shots? I can see France being the main obstacle politically, but I think Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Poland and Czech Republic will also favour an amicable settlement with the UK.
    All the countries have the agree. Even the Germans are not short sighted enough to realize that giving a Free Trade deal without concessions to country that leaves the Union is a dumb idea.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I ignored it because you mischaracterized what i wrote.

    Your second point is wrong anyway.

    6.4% of German Exports go to the UK - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visual...show/all/2013/
    10% of UK Exports go to the Germany - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profil.../#Destinations.

    So, if there was a trade war and we stopped traded, we would lose 10% of our exports and they would lose 6.4%.

    Therefore, we would lose more.

    That is why looking at account deficit solely, is completely pointless. This is what I tried to explain earlier.

    I hope you now accept that we will worse off in a trade war with the EU/Germany.
    Nope my second point was right and YOU were wrong. Germany has a huge trade deficit with us and will definitely ensure a deal is done. They may be spiteful, but they aren't going to cut off their own nose to spite their face.

    As a demonstrably ignorant poster you clearly don't realise either that Switzerland and Norway have SURPLUSES with the EU and still have a total free market. We run a huge deficit and won't get one? Yeah right.

    Anyway since you don't even live in the country and have a predilection for talking it down forgive us or not giving a flying [email protected] about your ill informed views on the matter.

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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    Nope my second point was right and YOU were wrong. Germany has a hug.............us or not giving a flying [email protected] about your ill informed views on the matter.

    5 days later....I don't give a flying **** either about anything you say either.
 
 
 
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