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Gove tells a string of fibs in his "why we should leave the EU" statement Watch

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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    Sadly some people do listen to him, even though listening never seemed to be a skill of his whilst he was Secretary of State for Education. Other than Boris, he is the only Tory MP on the Leave side whose views however factually incorrect will be taken much notice of.

    Even though as you point out he is hated by many.
    This is sad but I suppose you are right, there are a few people that like him and will take his word to be true. It's a shame, really.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I've not confused anything. DoriaGrayism's stance has already been clarified and it changes little since I still disagree and the points still stand, but thanks for your completely unwanted snarky input on the matter.
    Wow...

    It does change things actually seeing as you clearly misunderstood and did exactly what you were accusing him of. It's easier to disagree with a made up point. Anyway as I'm "unwanted", I'll retreat and allow you to confuse people all by yourself.

    Cheers,

    Snarky.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    "In that situation a number of jobs would leave the UK."

    That's a reaction to an event, not an action in case of an event

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    Yes and the event is something that could cause damage.

    He didn't say in the event it does cause damage.
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    (Original post by paddy25)
    Wow...

    It does change things actually seeing as you clearly misunderstood and did exactly what you were accusing him of. It's easier to disagree with a made up point. Anyway as I'm "unwanted", I'll retreat and allow you to confuse people all by yourself.

    Cheers,

    Snarky.
    It doesn't change anything, since my original point that they responded to was that leaving the EU will not make co-operating with Europe harder. I still maintain that their posts imply that we rely on the EU to have any form of co-operation with Europe, so no, not a straw-man.
    I have no problem with you having input, this is after all a public discussion forum, merely the fact that your post literally had nothing to offer to the conversation and was simply you seemingly getting involved for the sole purpose of being snarky.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Yes and the event is something that could cause damage.

    He didn't say in the event it does cause damage.
    If we stay in the EU we could join the Euro. In that situation the ECB would be our central bank.

    When would the ECB be our central bank?

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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    It doesn't change anything, since my original point that they responded to was that leaving the EU will not make co-operating with Europe harder. I still maintain that their posts imply that we rely on the EU to have any form of co-operation with Europe, so no, not a straw-man.
    I have no problem with you having input, this is after all a public discussion forum, merely the fact that your post literally had nothing to offer to the conversation and was simply you seemingly getting involved for the sole purpose of being snarky.
    Yeah thats the reason I intervened though, not because I was being "snarky" for the sake of it, but because I thought I'd point out that you've got it wrong and we already have enough misinformation flying around...

    He consistently said:

    "I stated that common institutions make continued cooperation easier. No more. No less."

    And:

    "I didn't say co-operation wouldn't work. I said it would be harder since we would not be part of any common decision making process."

    Note the comparative statements as opposed to your interpretation of them as implying that "we rely on the EU to have any form of cooperation." It's just plain wrong.
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    (Original post by paddy25)
    Yeah thats the reason I intervened though, not because I was being "snarky" for the sake of it, but because I thought I'd point out that you've got it wrong and we already have enough misinformation flying around...

    He consistently said:

    "I stated that common institutions make continued cooperation easier. No more. No less."

    And:

    "I didn't say co-operation wouldn't work. I said it would be harder since we would not be part of any common decision making process."

    Note the comparative statements as opposed to your interpretation of them as implying that "we rely on the EU to have any form of cooperation." It's just plain wrong.
    The quotes you've cherry-picked were towards the end of our exchange, where they're clearly clarifying their position not making one, which I accepted and we moved on. If you're going to wade in atleast make sure you have the whole picture and also that it's relevant.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    The quotes you've cherry-picked were towards the end of our exchange, where they're clearly clarifying their position not making one, which I accepted and we moved on. If you're going to wade in atleast make sure you have the whole picture and also that it's relevant.
    Yeah, I have read it all, and yet that's irrelevant because the quote of yours I provided about taking his comments to mean we need the EU to have any cooperation at all, was made after the whole exchange and thus should have been made by you, with that "whole picture" in mind.

    Sorry, but I'm just trying to make sure people don't get away with arguments that are going to mislead people and turn into yet more fallacies.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If we stay in the EU we could join the Euro. In that situation the ECB would be our central bank.

    When would the ECB be our central bank?

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    If I stay out tonight, I could be attacked. In that situation, I would be forced to go to home.

    When would I go to home?

    Maybe instead of nonsensical irrelevant examples, you should actually address what I write.
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    (Original post by paddy25)
    Yeah, I have read it all, and yet that's irrelevant because the quote of yours I provided about taking his comments to mean we need the EU to have any cooperation at all, was made after the whole exchange and thus should have been made by you, with that "whole picture" in mind.

    Sorry, but I'm just trying to make sure people don't get away with arguments that are going to mislead people and turn into yet more fallacies.
    My responses to those quotes was that I believed they implied differently before. They clarified they didn't. I accepted that and moved on. It's not even a complex train of thought to comprehend. I don't know why you're insistent on trying to call me out over this.
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    (Original post by iEthan)
    This is sad but I suppose you are right, there are a few people that like him and will take his word to be true. It's a shame, really.
    To me it's pretty scary that someone who is so obviously clever and furthermore is fully aware of what the actual facts are, is so willing to blatantly lie about them in public at such an important moment. It reveals an icy cynicism and a Stalinist willingness to distort the truth in pursuit of his goal.

    The sad truth is that the core anti-EU headbangers on the right are so bloody obsessed that to them only the lies matter any more and they don't really care if they are right or wrong about Brexit. It's a religious matter, not a real-world one.
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    (Original post by Arsenal96)
    Only an idiot would think the banks would leave. Pathetic. They have big banks in small developing countries yet you people think the 5th (soon to be 4th) largest economy in the world will lose everyone
    HSBC was seriously considering leaving for emerging markets. Not full capital flight perhaps, but downsizing, lack of fresh investment, and stagnation are all possibilities.
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    Guys hes right. Hes the best education secretary ever! I think exams should be made 10 times harder. Universities should be charging double really tbh.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    My responses to those quotes was that I believed they implied differently before. They clarified they didn't. I accepted that and moved on. It's not even a complex train of thought to comprehend. I don't know why you're insistent on trying to call me out over this.
    I'm not letting go because I don't think it's right to spread a false interpretation of someone's argument in order to 'win'/mislead. Fair enough, you've just said you accepted they didn't mean that, but literally just before that you said "I still maintain that their posts imply that we rely on the EU to have any form of co-operation with Europe."
    So sorry if I'm having trouble "comprehending" your incoherent arguments.

    Anyway, I appreciate this side track isn't really helping anyone, so whatever, go ahead and continue to bash the EU with reasonably ill-informed rantings
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    (Original post by paddy25)
    I'm not letting go because I don't think it's right to spread a false interpretation of someone's argument in order to 'win'/mislead. Fair enough, you've just said you accepted they didn't mean that, but literally just before that you said "I still maintain that their posts imply that we rely on the EU to have any form of co-operation with Europe."
    So sorry if I'm having trouble "comprehending" your incoherent arguments.

    Anyway, I appreciate this side track isn't really helping anyone, so whatever, go ahead and continue to bash the EU with reasonably ill-informed rantings
    This is getting beyond tedious.
    I maintain their earlier posts imply that.
    You keep quoting things out of context to prove what exactly? My position is that the UK doesn't need the EU to co-operate with European nations. Even if I was purposely misrepresenting the other users argument as you claim that still wouldn't be bashing the EU, since it would be a statement we both agree on, simply one they never intended to make in the first place.
    You're literally trying to make a point over nothing.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I'm sure our bureaucrats will earn their paydays. They've been quite effective thus so far in ensuring that the UK remains internationally influential in so many fields.
    And that is partly because we are part of those EU institutions.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    What areas do you believe the UK will suffer in if it was to leave the EU?
    The economy.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Excellent article about Gove's statement on leaving the EU - basically Gove plays the old tabloid game of ****ging off the EU with collections of random factoids, most of which are wrong.
    http://infacts.org/gove-anti-eu-argu...ury-than-fact/

    In some of them, he confuses EU policies for UK government policies and in others, he critiques things his own government have put into effect by blaming them on the EU.

    It's desperate stuff.
    Nice to see that you are lining up alongside Cameron, Osborne, the Civil Service, most of Parliament, big business, the BBC, the General Staff of the armed forces ya de ya.

    Basically the entire Establishment.

    You "progressives" are really free thinkers, independent in thought, aren't you?
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    Nice to see that you are lining up alongside Cameron, Osborne, the Civil Service, most of Parliament, big business, the BBC, the General Staff of the armed forces ya de ya.

    Basically the entire Establishment.

    You "progressives" are really free thinkers, independent in thought, aren't you?
    Pretty sure this is a massive logical fallacy right there. Half of the 'Out' brigade are Establishment too, if you haven't noticed, and even if they weren't, you're committing at the very least an ad hominem.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Pretty sure this is a massive logical fallacy right there. Half of the 'Out' brigade are Establishment too, if you haven't noticed, and even if they weren't, you're committing at the very least an ad hominem.
    George Galloway, Frank Field, Nigel Farage, Kate Hoey, (and in the last generation Tony Benn and Michael Foot) are the Establishment?? Someone ought to tell them!

    He is right, the great and the good are in favour of the capitalist/imperialist European Union and the left have become establishment lickspittles.

    On the side of Cameron and the city bankers and the Eurocrats. And against the people of Greece living under EU dictated austerity / misery and the refugees treated like criminals by the EU.

    Doesn't the way big business is lining up to trash the possibility of Brexit offer a clue as which interests the EU really represents?

    Ask the steel workers whose jobs have been lost because state support is against EU rules if it supports the poor and downtrodden and dispossessed or the powerful elite.

    They might give you an answer.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    George Galloway, Frank Field, Nigel Farage, Kate Hoey, (and in the last generation Tony Benn and Michael Foot) are the Establishment?? Someone ought to tell them!
    Highly selective in your examples there. Jeremy Corbyn is 'Establishment' by your reckoning but is personally eurosceptic. Boris Johnson and Cameron went to the same school. Lord Pearson of Rannoch is the former UKIP leader. And Farage is at Establishment as they come - he's just not an MP, so somehow that arbitrarily discounts him.

    He is right, the great and the good are in favour of the capitalist/imperialist European Union and the left have become establishment lickspittles.

    On the side of Cameron and the city bankers and the Eurocrats. And against the people of Greece living under EU dictated austerity / misery and the refugees treated like criminals by the EU.
    Another logical fallacy that doesn't attract enough respect to be replied to.

    Doesn't the way big business is lining up to trash the possibility of Brexit offer a clue as which interests the EU really represents?

    Ask the steel workers whose jobs have been lost because state support is against EU rules if it supports the poor and downtrodden and dispossessed or the powerful elite.

    They might give you an answer.
    The article linked in the OP explains why the EU doesn't permit market distortion. It's something the UK Government freedly signed up to adopt. The thing with rules, you ought to stick with them until you agree a change.

    I've little confidence a non-EU UK would have lifted a finger to help the industry, either. Certainly not under the Tories.
 
 
 
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