Why is being a feminist considered to be so bad?
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Original post by joecphillips
No it shows that male domestic abuse is not taken seriously and it is underfunded
No it shows that male domestic abuse is not taken seriously and it is underfunded
exactly, and feminism plays a huge part in demanding better recognition and treatment for male abuse victims.
when a man is raped or assaulted he is often told, usually by anti-feminist men, that he "should have enjoyed it" or he is being a "coward"; as such, male victims can be afraid to speak out about their ordeal.
feminists will be the ones supporting the victims and encouraging more funding and helplines for them.
Original post by under8ed
Well in the western world, women have got equal rights as women, dont give anyone rubbish that women dont. There are few isolated cases but that isn't a reflection of society as a whole. Really there are women in other countries such as Saudi Arabia where womens rights are a joke. If you're gonna publically say you're a 'feminist' then go do something to help them instead of making false statements such as 'equal rights for males and females' because truth is, it already exists.
You have literally just contradicted yourself.
Original post by Zargabaath
The way I see it, feminism is just one of many means to an end. The end itself being gender equality.
I don't agree with the way in which feminists with any political or social power are trying to attain their vision of gender equality. Too often to me it seems that it's more concerned with either petty issues such as man-spreading, or things based off of dodgy/misleading statistics (e.g. 1 in 4/5/6/whatever). In the first world anyway.
On top of that, there's too much tolerance/silent acceptance shown towards radicals in the movement.
THAT SAID, I recognise most people who call themselves feminists are generally people who literally just want equal rights so I'm not going to paint every person who calls themselves a feminist with the same brush. I wont assume that every feminist is a man hater, until they demonstrate to me they are.
I don't agree with the way in which feminists with any political or social power are trying to attain their vision of gender equality. Too often to me it seems that it's more concerned with either petty issues such as man-spreading, or things based off of dodgy/misleading statistics (e.g. 1 in 4/5/6/whatever). In the first world anyway.
On top of that, there's too much tolerance/silent acceptance shown towards radicals in the movement.
THAT SAID, I recognise most people who call themselves feminists are generally people who literally just want equal rights so I'm not going to paint every person who calls themselves a feminist with the same brush. I wont assume that every feminist is a man hater, until they demonstrate to me they are.
The problem is that you're basing this off what you see on the internet. The internet is very good at giving a voice to minority opinions (and of course, people opposed to the idea of feminism are very fond of perpetuating negative stereotypes) and the result is that the representation people get of feminism from the internet is that of the immature, misandrist tumblr feminist, which really is not a particularly accurate representation of the social movement in general. Of course moderate, sensible points of view don't get as much attention because they're not as exciting. It's much easier to mock extremists than to have a sensible debate.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by thermometer
in other words: you are completely, in the most ignorant way possible, GENERALISING.
how would you like it if I saw all men as rapists just because I saw a few men who were guilty of rape? I thought that was the kind of thing you were passionately against...
#notallmen
how would you like it if I saw all men as rapists just because I saw a few men who were guilty of rape? I thought that was the kind of thing you were passionately against...
#notallmen
I haven't said all feminists I am saying that from what I have seen modern feminism has changed and is based on victimhood, I have stated that there are still some true feminists however the noisy other lot have came and stolen the label and that is why the label feminism is bad.
If you go by the dictionary definition then I am not against that but looking at the definition in the real world that is where there are some problems.
Original post by joecphillips
My reason for believing it was correctly decided comes from the fact that there is no actual evidence he did it and the courts operate on innocent until proven guilty as well as the fact that there is absolutely no precedent set saying that allegations can end a contract.
I really do think that tweet about him "spanking" her is evidence - not by itself, no, but it is enough when you add it to the fact that he claimed he "has never raped her OR had sex with her". the tweet I linked you to certainly indicates that they've had sex. that might have been consensual sex, so if it doesn't prove that he's a rapist, it does prove that he's a liar, since he claimed he's never had consensual or non-consensual sex with her.
Original post by cookiemonster15
You have literally just contradicted yourself.
well if you read my first few words, i made it clear that equal rights exists in the western world, which was what i meant. I guess I should have made it clear to ppl like you
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by joecphillips
I haven't said all feminists I am saying that from what I have seen modern feminism has changed and is based on victimhood, I have stated that there are still some true feminists however the noisy other lot have came and stolen the label and that is why the label feminism is bad.
If you go by the dictionary definition then I am not against that but looking at the definition in the real world that is where there are some problems.
If you go by the dictionary definition then I am not against that but looking at the definition in the real world that is where there are some problems.
That I can accept. but if we were to consistently make judgements based on the opinions we see on the internet, it would be pretty dreadful, because the internet is full of trolls
it's to be expected, really. any kind of movement/debate/political issue is going to have its trolls and opponents.
Original post by thermometer
I really do think that tweet about him "spanking" her is evidence - not by itself, no, but it is enough when you add it to the fact that he claimed he "has never raped her OR had sex with her". the tweet I linked you to certainly indicates that they've had sex. that might have been consensual sex, so if it doesn't prove that he's a rapist, it does prove that he's a liar, since he claimed he's never had consensual or non-consensual sex with her.
she has also said that nothing happened between them in a deposition in 2011 and this shows that she is also a LIAR.
Original post by thermometer
That I can accept. but if we were to consistently make judgements based on the opinions we see on the internet, it would be pretty dreadful, because the internet is full of trolls
it's to be expected, really. any kind of movement/debate/political issue is going to have its trolls and opponents.
it's to be expected, really. any kind of movement/debate/political issue is going to have its trolls and opponents.
I can only judge a group on what I see, I have experienced this type of feminism in person not just online and they operated in exactly the same way.
Original post by under8ed
well if you read my first few words, i made it clear that equal rights exists in the western world, which was what i meant. I guess I should have made it clear to ppl like you
Yes, but then you went onto say that I should scrap my views as a feminist as equal rights already exists. So, what you're saying is I should stop wanting equal rights for the mere reason that you think it already exists in the western world? Just because I am feminist does not mean I only want equal rights in the area I am currently living in. As long as there are places in which women do not have equal rights as men, I will remain a feminist/
"people like you?" Could you not resort to sounding so patronising and assuming you know me just because you do not agree with my opinion.
Original post by joecphillips
she has also said that nothing happened between them in a deposition in 2011 and this shows that she is also a LIAR.
But why can't he just end the contract anyway lol
clearly she is extremely unhappy and people like you supporting him are only enforcing the contract she doesn't want to be a part of.
Whether he raped her or not, he is evidently extremely sexist and that tweet IS sexual harassment.
The definition of feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes". In first world, developed countries, feminism with its current definition is not needed, as women are legally treated the same or better than men. In this point in time in developed countries, Women have their privileges as do men, so right now Egalitarianism is a better thing for these countries. For third world countries feminism is sorely needed as women are treated like dirt in a lot of them, and so they definitely need more legal rights.
The bad image that feminists get is mostly because of stupid claims like the gender pay gap and rape culture. There is no rape culture in first world countries because rapists are imprisoned. The gender pay gap isn't the fault of businesses or the government but because of women's own choices. Other things like Freethenipple are just so insignificant and laughable, in one part of the world women are treated like dirt, but some feminists would rather freethenipple than help make changes for those who really need it.
I, personally would have respect towards anyone who calls them self a feminist that accepts that feminism is needed in underdeveloped/backwards countries rather than the USA and the UK.
The bad image that feminists get is mostly because of stupid claims like the gender pay gap and rape culture. There is no rape culture in first world countries because rapists are imprisoned. The gender pay gap isn't the fault of businesses or the government but because of women's own choices. Other things like Freethenipple are just so insignificant and laughable, in one part of the world women are treated like dirt, but some feminists would rather freethenipple than help make changes for those who really need it.
I, personally would have respect towards anyone who calls them self a feminist that accepts that feminism is needed in underdeveloped/backwards countries rather than the USA and the UK.
Original post by joecphillips
I can only judge a group on what I see, I have experienced this type of feminism in person not just online and they operated in exactly the same way.
So basically, you're stereotyping...
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
1) This is how "patriarchy" works, is it not? Forgive me; as I have noted, it is very loosely defined.
2) Then what, precisely, is it, and how is it demonstrated in such spheres? Victim blaming happens, but I don't see how it is systemic. And from what I have seen on social media, in cases of rape accusations, the predominate "culture" is one of immediately believing the woman and not victim-blaming at all. Immediate distrust/accusations of lying are obviously not a good alternative, but I happen to believe that people should reserve judgement when not given concrete evidence.
3) I don't believe in white male privilege. Make me believe in it, by giving me objective evidence. I have a very open mind.
4) Well how about the fact that white working class males are the worst performing group in education in the UK, and the most disliked/distrusted by the general public (this from a survey if I recall correctly, I could try to dig it up if needs be..) ? And that males have the highest rates of suicide? I just dislike this "oppression olympics" as people call it. Yes, black people suffer, but how do you know they suffer worse than white people (in the West, that is)? (I would not argue that people in the first world aren't privileged relative to those in the 3rd world...for me "privilege" can only come from greater social class, and the quality of life where you happen to live - and this makes sense given that these things give objective benefits).
2) Then what, precisely, is it, and how is it demonstrated in such spheres? Victim blaming happens, but I don't see how it is systemic. And from what I have seen on social media, in cases of rape accusations, the predominate "culture" is one of immediately believing the woman and not victim-blaming at all. Immediate distrust/accusations of lying are obviously not a good alternative, but I happen to believe that people should reserve judgement when not given concrete evidence.
3) I don't believe in white male privilege. Make me believe in it, by giving me objective evidence. I have a very open mind.
4) Well how about the fact that white working class males are the worst performing group in education in the UK, and the most disliked/distrusted by the general public (this from a survey if I recall correctly, I could try to dig it up if needs be..) ? And that males have the highest rates of suicide? I just dislike this "oppression olympics" as people call it. Yes, black people suffer, but how do you know they suffer worse than white people (in the West, that is)? (I would not argue that people in the first world aren't privileged relative to those in the 3rd world...for me "privilege" can only come from greater social class, and the quality of life where you happen to live - and this makes sense given that these things give objective benefits).
the idea of patriarchy isn't to say that every single woman is oppressed by every single man lmao, that's just extremist and over-exaggerated. I'm on-the-fence about patriarchy tbh, I suppose it is loosely defined.
I have to disagree with your argument that we tend to immediately believe the woman. in the Kesha case, yes I would say that feminists sided with her. Adam Johnson though? the poor girl got called a liar, attention seeker, slag etc for ages. and Kesha is called those things too tbh. many other less-high-profile victims, whether male or female, are also constantly shamed and blamed. I think that, without evidence, you should not immediately believe the accusor OR the accused.
I understand why you'd think that privilege only comes if you have more money and a better quality of life, but it is so much wider than that. many companies are either openly or secretly less likely to hire a muslim woman or a disabled man than an able-bodied white man.
you do not have to be rich to be privileged. privilege comes with being born into a certain race or environment. you could, for example, be an able-bodied straight white male who started off fine but got addicted to drugs, gambled off all your money, got robbed, or became poor through some other means. you will therefore have a poorer quality of life, but you are still more likely to get back on your feet/re-employed than someone who doesn't have said privilege.
of course white males would not be so privileged in a country where white is a minority, but I'm talking about the west really.
Original post by JackEDeakin
But why can't he just end the contract anyway lol
clearly she is extremely unhappy and people like you supporting him are only enforcing the contract she doesn't want to be a part of.
Whether he raped her or not, he is evidently extremely sexist and that tweet IS sexual harassment.
clearly she is extremely unhappy and people like you supporting him are only enforcing the contract she doesn't want to be a part of.
Whether he raped her or not, he is evidently extremely sexist and that tweet IS sexual harassment.
Because a contract is a legally binding document if this contract was ended it would set a really dangerous precedent which would destroy a lot of contract law making contracts virtually worthless.
She had the chance to negotiate the contract before signing it and she had the freedom to reject it she was willing to take what she was owed so she has to be willing to pay what she owes, I want out of my phone contract should I be let out of it for free?
Original post by joecphillips
Because a contract is a legally binding document if this contract was ended it would set a really dangerous precedent which would destroy a lot of contract law making contracts virtually worthless.
She had the chance to negotiate the contract before signing it and she had the freedom to reject it she was willing to take what she was owed so she has to be willing to pay what she owes, I want out of my phone contract should I be let out of it for free?
She had the chance to negotiate the contract before signing it and she had the freedom to reject it she was willing to take what she was owed so she has to be willing to pay what she owes, I want out of my phone contract should I be let out of it for free?
Does your phone company sexually abuse you and harass you in public? I think someone's mental and emotional health/stability comes first over a legally binding contract, which, he can break if he wishes.
Original post by joecphillips
she has also said that nothing happened between them in a deposition in 2011 and this shows that she is also a LIAR.
I hadn't heard about that but if that is true, then all we have so far is that they have both been dishonest. if so, why would you think it's fair for the case to be decided in favour of him? shouldn't it still be ambiguous?
Original post by cookiemonster15
Yes, but then you went onto say that I should scrap my views as a feminist as equal rights already exists. So, what you're saying is I should stop wanting equal rights for the mere reason that you think it already exists in the western world? Just because I am feminist does not mean I only want equal rights in the area I am currently living in. As long as there are places in which women do not have equal rights as men, I will remain a feminist/
"people like you?" Could you not resort to sounding so patronising and assuming you know me just because you do not agree with my opinion.
"people like you?" Could you not resort to sounding so patronising and assuming you know me just because you do not agree with my opinion.
I said 'people like you' because instead of replying to my point in a civilised manner, you resorted to picking out errors in what I said.
You're question was generically addressing feminists and why they are, and very few feminists fight for the rights of women in the whole world. I'm fully in support of feminists who do do this, but in general those who identify themselves as feminists dont.
Please dont try to make me look like a bad guy, its not my problem you immediately assume that i am trying to be patronizing.
Original post by thermometer
I hadn't heard about that but if that is true, then all we have so far is that they have both been dishonest. if so, why would you think it's fair for the case to be decided in favour of him? shouldn't it still be ambiguous?
The case isn't whether he sexually abused her or not or raped her (while that is an important factor), the case is literally to free her from her contract.
Original post by JackEDeakin
Does your phone company sexually abuse you and harass you in public? I think someone's mental and emotional health/stability comes first over a legally binding contract, which, he can break if he wishes.
In a court of law the law comes first if it didn't then murderers couldn't be jailed as it would upset them.
If kesha and her lawyer thought that tweet would end the contract that is what they would have used.
Sony could break the contract if they wished and they would lose a lot of potential money, if Sony wanted to end it and kesha didn't depending on how well kesha negotiated the contract she would be entitled to a lot, just like kesha could breach the contract however she would have to pay for ignoring her legal responsibilities.
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