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Why is being a feminist considered to be so bad? Watch

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    (Original post by JackEDeakin)
    The case isn't whether he sexually abused her or not or raped her (while that is an important factor), the case is literally to free her from her contract.
    aye I understood that but I still think that a decision to bind her to the contract is unfair whether or not he raped her. yes a contract is a contract, but I'm struggling to think of what motives she could have for making the whole thing up. but if he is innocent, surely the relationship is now toxic enough that nothing good is going to come from keeping the contract.
    the case was essentially decided in favour of continuing commercial profit, which I feel is more in favour of dr luke than kesha.
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    (Original post by cookiemonster15)
    So basically, you're stereotyping...
    By that logic anything you think about anything is a stereotype am I supposed to speak to every single feminist and if one says something different I can not say that feminist think the way the majority do
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    aye I understood that but I still think that a decision to bind her to the contract is unfair whether or not he raped her. yes a contract is a contract, but I'm struggling to think of what motives she could have for making the whole thing up. but if he is innocent, surely the relationship is now toxic enough that nothing good is going to come from keeping the contract.
    the case was essentially decided in favour of continuing commercial profit, which I feel is more in favour of dr luke than kesha.
    There are a lot of possible motives such as money and to destroy him for some reason.
    And it was a decision based on law not emotion which is what the courts are about.
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    Third wave feminism appears to be built on the assumption of a huge conspiracy led by men to dominate women, an assumption I find to be ridiculous.

    That said, I consider myself to be an egalitarian.
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    I hadn't heard about that but if that is true, then all we have so far is that they have both been dishonest. if so, why would you think it's fair for the case to be decided in favour of him? shouldn't it still be ambiguous?
    Because a court has rules to follow and there is no precedent for throwing out a freely negotiated and signed contract on just allegations
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    I believe in the equality of men and women, yet the problems that women face such as a 'lad culture' should be dealt with whilst they are still at school in PSHE classes and the portrayal of women in the media (as sexual objects). Blaming a certain demographic (white men) is not the answer.

    The gender pay gap is not accurate, and narrows to the point of not existing when all factors are accounted for.Women under the age of 30 earn more than men. In the same sector the statistics used are too vague and general. e.g. Not considering that women may choose to go in to lower paid fields (nursing, paediatrics, etc) and work part time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wom...at-age-30.html

    However, the stance that 'meninists' such as those on this site are judgemental and simply abhorrent, generalising feminists as dirty and such. Yet, some issues raised such as a 3 time higher suicide rate in men than women and the importance of masculinity preventing those with mental health problems such as depression from speaking out.

    Third wave feminism simply has too much of a victimhood complex in my opinion blaming 'patriarchy' and society. Whilst not fixing the issue at hand despite having the resources to do so (Minister for Women and Equalities).




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    (Original post by Darkphilosopher)
    Third wave feminism appears to be built on the assumption of a huge conspiracy led by men to dominate women, an assumption I find to be ridiculous.

    That said, I consider myself to be an egalitarian.
    lol, what? there is no suspicion of some dramatic "conspiracy led by men" to dominate women.
    traditionally men have always been inherently seen as superior to women. very few works of film or literature, whether old or recent, place equal importance on men and women. and in third world countries men still have the upper hand; women aren't even allowed to work or study in many occasions.
    feminism campaigns for more recognition of women's abilities, and that is not to undermine men. we also recognise places where men are treated unfairly, such as lack of support for male abuse victims, and encourage awareness of that too.
    it really doesn't make a lot of sense to be an egalitarian (believing in equal rights) without being a feminist (believing in equal rights).
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    lol, what? there is no suspicion of some dramatic "conspiracy led by men" to dominate women.
    traditionally men have always been inherently seen as superior to women. very few works of film or literature, whether old or recent, place equal importance on men and women. and in third world countries men still have the upper hand; women aren't even allowed to work or study in many occasions.
    feminism campaigns for more recognition of women's abilities, and that is not to undermine men. we also recognise places where men are treated unfairly, such as lack of support for male abuse victims, and encourage awareness of that too.
    it really doesn't make a lot of sense to be an egalitarian (believing in equal rights) without being a feminist (believing in equal rights).
    All the rhetoric about "Rape Culture", "The Patriarchy" and the likes suggest otherwise. There are a lot of feminist groups promoting 'positive' discrimination in favour of women too, which is not egalitarian.
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    Well, being a feminist itself isn't a bad thing, its the the associations that come with feminists and the perception of their beliefs is the bad thing.
    The ones who speak the loudest about feminism are radical feminists and no one can take them seriously with their ridiculous "causes".

    If anyone really thought of themselves a believer in equality they would label themselves an egalitarian but that is just my opinion. Also, I don't think first world feminists even know what they're even rooting for anymore. They just hope on anything trendy that involves gender, and claim "its a woman issue!".
    Uh, no its not. I can understand supporting feminism for undeveloped nations but when "we" (females) already have the same opportunities as guys do in a developed nation what's the point of mopping bout feminism here, ya know? Lastly feminists say stuff like its fact but provide no concrete evidence on it.

    I mean, if you're going to support or be part of some cause at least find examples of real oppression instead of claiming that since one some guy or complete stranger said something offensive or inappropriate, all men are like that so we need more feminism to educate that one guy.
    Like what? Feminists need to get their act together.

    Feminism isn't bad nor feminists are bad, it is just the way they conduct themselves and protest over every little thing.
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    (Original post by cookiemonster15)
    That's something that really disgusts me, when people try to turn it around so it looks like it was someone's fault that they were raped. People are allowed to dress the way they want. They could be out completely naked and that is not a sign that they were wanting to be raped...
    Um, hello. Hope ya don't mind commenting on your comment. I totally agree that no woman should be in the wrong or gain blame for rape. However women should take precautions especially if they happen to be in the "bad" part of a town or "nowhere". Of course people should be able to wear whatever but that doesn't mean the people surrounding them will respect them or take signs of that. Dressing "naked" makes that woman vulnerable and open to sexual assault from strangers. I think learning self defense is way more efficient instead of relying on others to respect people's fashion. Rapists do not care about their victim's feelings and that is why they're called rapists.
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    (Original post by ZoëC)
    We do try to fight male oppression too, masculine ideals are one of their biggest threats
    Yeah, only those types of male oppression which can be spun as being the fault of "masculinity". What about when women quite simply use the advantages accorded to them by their sex to manipulate, abuse and push around men?

    Basically men are told that only feminist women are smart and clever enough to know what needs to be done for men. Leave the women to it, they're forward-thinking and enlightened enough to sort it out better than you ever could. They're so smart they make up 60% of university students, don't you know.

    And surprise surprise, after being put through the feminist wringer it turns out all the stuff that sucks for men always turns out to be the fault of men, and to fit seamlessly into the patriarchy/pathological masculinity narrative.
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    (Original post by JackEDeakin)
    There is a rape culture.

    I can't tell you the amount of times I've heard the phrase "she deserves to get raped". When people ask what woman was wearing, that is part of a rape culture. The pay gap is real, women literally earn less per hour and are in less executive positions.
    I don't know anyone who genuinely thinks that women who wear certain clothes deserve to get raped. Not one person. I don't know if you honestly think there are enough people out there that think that to justify saying that we have a rape culture, but I certainly don't.

    About the pay gap, between the ages of 20-40, women on average earn MORE than men. After that point it begins to go in the other direction. You know why? We have a motherhood pay gap. Women get pregnant and begin to work less hours, take a long time off work on maternity leave and so on. Now this is a problem, women often have to choose between career and family whereas men do not and that is unfair but it's hardly sexist. To help fix this I would say we should start having shared maternity leave, so a couple can decide who wants to take time off to look after the child and who wants to work. Giving couples the choice and encouraging a conversation to take place seems to be the best way to enhance the freedom of women who want a career and men who want to stay home.
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    (Original post by thermometer)
    lol, what? there is no suspicion of some dramatic "conspiracy led by men" to dominate women
    OK, good so far...


    traditionally men have always been inherently seen as superior to women.
    Hot damn, you ruined it.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    What are masculine ideals?

    3rd wave feminism isn't based on equality it is based on victim hood they will go on about the dictionary definition of feminism to defend themselves and then create new definitions for words such as:
    Patriarchy
    Actual definition: a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
    feminist definition: an unjust social system that enforces gender roles and is oppressive to both men and women.
    Masculine ideals, such as the supposed impossibility of men being raped, or the idea that you must be the breadwinning, non paternal type. Of course it is self destructive to victimise oneself in the hope of receiving sympathy from those we wish to be 'equal' with. I personally find it to be a way of self oppression, if you believe and state that you are helpless and a 'victim' (in this context), you form a mentality that leaves you and others with the belief that you could never amount to, in this case, men. How can we then expect them to not begin to treat us in the way we claim we are being treated? A big issue with feminism is that there is a constant comparison to men, and that the only way to accept life is to beat the 'patriarchy'.Whilst we need to understand that we are valued in other ways where men may not be, I feel feminists wish to have access to any way of life, rather than being isolated by gender role stereotypes etc.

    The dictionary definition of feminism is arguably outdated, as people have become more open to the fact that gender inequality is not the only issue, the movement has evolved to accommodate that. I can't word this properly, but it is definitely better for every individual to define their own beliefs, hence your egalitarianism, and my feminism, there will be millions of perspectives, because every individual has their own case, I care a lot about all of humanity and the responsibility we all have to support each other, however it is also common for there to be those that will only have been exposed to certain issues, or opinions, hence the 'feminist definition of patriarchy' - they have either interpreted it differently, or have adopted the victim status that to be fair, is the default expectation of women; we are supposed to suggest, not instruct; we are supposed to feel weaker when standing up for ourselves etc.

    Do you have an issue with the feminist definition? I have encountered 'meninists' who would victimise them selves with regard to gender expectations, the justice system etc. surely if a movement is driven by the idea that people need to be oppressed less, with no clear deficit to anyone else, there is no problem?
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    (Original post by ZoëC)
    Masculine ideals, such as the supposed impossibility of men being raped, or the idea that you must be the breadwinning, non paternal type. Of course it is self destructive to victimise oneself in the hope of receiving sympathy from those we wish to be 'equal' with. I personally find it to be a way of self oppression, if you believe and state that you are helpless and a 'victim' (in this context), you form a mentality that leaves you and others with the belief that you could never amount to, in this case, men. How can we then expect them to not begin to treat us in the way we claim we are being treated? A big issue with feminism is that there is a constant comparison to men, and that the only way to accept life is to beat the 'patriarchy'.Whilst we need to understand that we are valued in other ways where men may not be, I feel feminists wish to have access to any way of life, rather than being isolated by gender role stereotypes etc.

    The dictionary definition of feminism is arguably outdated, as people have become more open to the fact that gender inequality is not the only issue, the movement has evolved to accommodate that. I can't word this properly, but it is definitely better for every individual to define their own beliefs, hence your egalitarianism, and my feminism, there will be millions of perspectives, because every individual has their own case, I care a lot about all of humanity and the responsibility we all have to support each other, however it is also common for there to be those that will only have been exposed to certain issues, or opinions, hence the 'feminist definition of patriarchy' - they have either interpreted it differently, or have adopted the victim status that to be fair, is the default expectation of women; we are supposed to suggest, not instruct; we are supposed to feel weaker when standing up for ourselves etc.

    Do you have an issue with the feminist definition? I have encountered 'meninists' who would victimise them selves with regard to gender expectations, the justice system etc. surely if a movement is driven by the idea that people need to be oppressed less, with no clear deficit to anyone else, there is no problem?
    I have no problem with the things you say, and I agree we have to work to make it accepted to talk about issues you have raised and it to be more acceptable for men to stay at home and be a more parental figure.

    I think a definition on feminism is hard as there are different factions within it and it depends on what one you use.
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    (Original post by hoafanuk)
    I completely agree! I am a guy and I am a feminist, in that I support total and complete equality for both sexes. I feel like feminists are grossly misrepresented by the 'feminazis' who give the moderate, reasonable feminists a bad name and make the general population think that feminism is all about 'plus women and minus men' which is completely inaccurate. Feminism is not a zero-sum game. Women and men can achieve equality without men being diminished.
    THIS
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    (Original post by cookiemonster15)
    Ok, so I know that there are an extreme group of females (radical feminists) who want to overpower men and all that stuff but that does not necessarily mean all feminists are like that!

    I am a feminist myself and pride myself in being one. I would class myself as being under the dictionary meaning of a feminist 'someone who want equal rights for both sexes'

    No I do not want to see the elimination of all males. I am not anti-male and I doubt many of the feminists are.

    However all I see on here is people blaming feminists for everything. I can barely even utter the fact that I am a feminist without people cowering away from me. It seems to be especially bad on this site where I see irrelevant things being blamed on feminists or seeing crap how the first thing a guy looks for is a girl who is not a feminist and has to 'make them a sandwich whenever they feel like it'

    Well, sorry, I'm not going to sit here and make you a sandwich for the pure reason that you demanded one.

    So why is it overblowing and made to be seen as if it is the worst thing anyone could be? What is so bad about wanting to have equal rights for males and females?

    People are just being so blinded by the media lately and I really don't see why something so small needs to be blown up into such proportion that people end up disliking feminists altogether.

    Any Thoughts?
    At a guess, I'd say that there're three main reasons. Firstly, the 'mainstream' form of feminism has steadily been becoming more radical, especially over the past decade. I mean, you just need to look at the most commonly espoused view of feminist groups to see this. They have palpably shifted from trying to advance women's rights to not-so-subtly bashing men for x, y and z. It certainly seems to have shifted from its original remit.

    Secondly, feminism comes across as targeting increasingly irrelevant 'issues'. I mean, a hundred years ago feminists were fighting for the vote. Fifty years ago, they were fighting for workplace rights. Thirty years ago they were fighting for equal pay. Today, they're fighting to take down billboards that suggest a certain physique is most attractive. It comes across as out of touch; even more so when most of these people tend to fall on the left of the political spectrum, so are also firm advocates for immigration from regions like the middle east and north africa. Considering how women are treated in these regions, it seems ridiculous for the people saying we're all closet sexists to demand we let those kind of people in.

    The third reason (and the one that personally annoys me) is the sheer amount of bull pedalled by essentially every feminist group under the sun. I mean, the gender pay gap is a prime example. It's utterly made up, it's been proven to be utterly made up, and yet we're still constantly told that women are paid 80% of what men are. And for me, it makes me doubt that there are any real issues left to solve. I mean, if there were still real issues that could be proven to exist in the west, why would they need to construct these ridiculous figures?

    That's my view on it anyways.
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    To answer the OP:

    1) People are either genuinely sexist and oppose the notion of gender equality, or
    2) They disagree with the policies (positive discrimination, lowering of the standards of admission in sexual assault-related trials, censoring or banning (violent) pornography, etc) that are advocated by various subsets of feminism.

    Most of the people I personally know fall into the second category, often without knowing it, which is perfectly fine in my opinion, as long as their criticism is rational and constructive, instead of the classic "omfg woman make me a sandwich and stop talking politics".
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    (Original post by cookiemonster15)
    Ok, so I know that there are an extreme group of females (radical feminists) who want to overpower men and all that stuff but that does not necessarily mean all feminists are like that!

    I am a feminist myself and pride myself in being one. I would class myself as being under the dictionary meaning of a feminist 'someone who want equal rights for both sexes'

    No I do not want to see the elimination of all males. I am not anti-male and I doubt many of the feminists are.

    However all I see on here is people blaming feminists for everything. I can barely even utter the fact that I am a feminist without people cowering away from me. It seems to be especially bad on this site where I see irrelevant things being blamed on feminists or seeing crap how the first thing a guy looks for is a girl who is not a feminist and has to 'make them a sandwich whenever they feel like it'

    Well, sorry, I'm not going to sit here and make you a sandwich for the pure reason that you demanded one.

    So why is it overblowing and made to be seen as if it is the worst thing anyone could be? What is so bad about wanting to have equal rights for males and females?

    People are just being so blinded by the media lately and I really don't see why something so small needs to be blown up into such proportion that people end up disliking feminists altogether.

    Any Thoughts?
    I disagree with feminism and oppose all feminists. Instead I believe in equal rights
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Yeah, only those types of male oppression which can be spun as being the fault of "masculinity". What about when women quite simply use the advantages accorded to them by their sex to manipulate, abuse and push around men?

    Basically men are told that only feminist women are smart and clever enough to know what needs to be done for men. Leave the women to it, they're forward-thinking and enlightened enough to sort it out better than you ever could. They're so smart they make up 60% of university students, don't you know.

    And surprise surprise, after being put through the feminist wringer it turns out all the stuff that sucks for men always turns out to be the fault of men, and to fit seamlessly into the patriarchy/pathological masculinity narrative.

    I'm sure there are many aspects of masculinity that you don't conform to, or wish you didn't have to, hence the gender spectrum - feminine ideals state that I should care ridiculously about my appearance, seek male companionship, be a 'domestic goddess', I find these to be fairly stupid, I mean, play sports, to like things I'm not supposed to, masculinity and femininity are very restricting.

    There will always be people taking advantage of any favoured feature of their identity, rich people use their money, smart people (hopefully) use their brains. Attractive people use their looks - we need to remember that if that's all people value them for, of course they'll express it further. Women have been sexualised by society to the point that they now have decided to manipulate this and throw it back in the faces of the people who sexualise them. It is also important to note that men are capable of this too. This is not the case for everyone, and we cannot put a gender/sex on abuse, dominance, or seduction, because in the case of heterosexuals, there is an attraction, which can be manipulated either to simply 'help a relationship' or indeed to abuse someone's trust.

    You have just explained why we need more male feminists. Just like a government, if you want to be represented, make it happen, just like women have by creating feminism. I have never met a man who feels he has no power over his own life simply because women now have a louder voice in society, and I'm sorry to hear that your experience is so disempowering to men.

    There are more women than men in western society (compared to the world average) where you are most likely to find more people in higher education. Women have been identified as less advantaged in education and the workplace, so the government has chosen to use university to tackle this. This is slightly unfair, as it works on the premise that male students are more likely to be successful regardless of their education which is very presumptuous, the main aim was to encourage female representation in STEM subjects, because we have been pushed out of them, more so in historical settings. Status plays a large role in this too, higher status people are more likely to gain employment through connections, so university has become more middle class, and then the other issue is our school system, where male students as I know from experience, are profiled far more, and so ate tolerated less, and so schools do fail them, to the point where many also fail to even get into university. It is important to take into account the factors that influence statistics too.


    "And surprise surprise, after being put through the feminist wringer it turns out all the stuff that sucks for men always turns out to be the fault of men, and to fit seamlessly into the patriarchy/pathological masculinity narrative."

    I understand how you feel this way, and women suffer the same fate. Society is best kept when people are too busy with superficial competition over who looks best etc. If we take gender ideals as an example, men/women do contribute to their own suffering, by reinforcing these ideals, which they were unfortunate enough to have drilled into them, at no fault of their own. What needs to happen, is for people to question these ideals because why should we conform to them when they make us hate ourselves? the other issue, is a lack of communication between us all - if a man/woman is told that the group they desire sexually, as well as their peers, likes, or believes is acceptable, of course we will feel pressured to please them, no matter how little we actually care about them - its a game of conformity.


    (sorry this is so long :s)
 
 
 
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