Why is being a feminist considered to be so bad?
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Original post by ZoëC
Understood, when I said STEM, it is clear that there is perhaps a gap in terms of the portrayal of these roles by women, because people do not expect women to take up these fields. Do you not believe there may be any extraneous factors here, I mean, by omission, in the sense that we weren't so actively encouraged to even get an education a few centuries ago. With regard to this, do you think there's a chance that by conditioning interests into people, they just wont diverge from that path, I know girls who were brought up as pink princesses, and they now wish to be mums, cooking, and have little ambition job wise. It is of course unfair to slate that lifestyle, but the environments we are brought up in, and the opportunities we are presented with are subconsciously partly gender based - take the experiments on how people treated a baby based on the perceived gender, or the lower expectation of daughters success when faced with a physical challenge.
I find it slightly disturbing that given the clear evidence in society, you would call rape culture a myth. With the common use of 'ting' to refer to women, to the porn industry - "it appeared to be giving young men “permission” to treat women as they see them being treated in porn." This alone is a cause for concern, when there are so many cases of rape in the porn industry, and the fact that there are companies dedicated to producing rape scenarios. Can you really say that there isn't a problem here, when all you have to do is look up a few 'songs' or talk to a few uni lads as they sing their anthems explicitly mentioning taking advantage of women? How many sex workers have to be raped and killed before its an issue?
My sister proves my point even more as she told me her year group had a talk about consent etc. who told these girls that if they say yes once, they can't back out, who told them that they can't be raped by a partner, who told them that backing out of unwanted sex was cowardly, 'frigid', a 'prude?
I find it slightly disturbing that given the clear evidence in society, you would call rape culture a myth. With the common use of 'ting' to refer to women, to the porn industry - "it appeared to be giving young men “permission” to treat women as they see them being treated in porn." This alone is a cause for concern, when there are so many cases of rape in the porn industry, and the fact that there are companies dedicated to producing rape scenarios. Can you really say that there isn't a problem here, when all you have to do is look up a few 'songs' or talk to a few uni lads as they sing their anthems explicitly mentioning taking advantage of women? How many sex workers have to be raped and killed before its an issue?
My sister proves my point even more as she told me her year group had a talk about consent etc. who told these girls that if they say yes once, they can't back out, who told them that they can't be raped by a partner, who told them that backing out of unwanted sex was cowardly, 'frigid', a 'prude?
I certainly don't think that it's entirely down to biology, I totally agree that societal expectations play a role to some degree. But if the major reason for fewer women in STEM fields was the result of gender conditioning, surely we would see less of a gap in interest in more equal countries? For the figure to be the same in Iraq as it is in the US all but confirms that something more fundamental is at play. And if we're talking about experiments on babies, it's also been proven in studies on two week old babies (before any possible conditioning could take place) that girls prefer toys with faces, dolls and the like, whereas boys prefer more physical things like building blocks. What's more, this same trend is seen across not just different societies, but also different species; animals show the exact same divide. Now whilst I'm sure that gender conditioning has some effect, I think there is substantial evidence to say that there is a biological element too.
Let me clarify; there is no rape culture in the West. Some countries in Africa, Asia and the Middle East most definitely do still have a prevalent rape culture, but that is not the case in the west. Without meaning to sound condescending, if you think there is a rape culture in Britain then you're not using the term correctly. Rape culture is defined as 'a setting where rape is pervasive and normalised due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality'. Now, as rape is neither pervasive nor normalised in Britain, any claim of a rape culture is ludicrous. I mean, I personally have no knowledge of the goings on of the porn industry, so couldn't really argue with what you said about it. But to suggest that what happens in the porn industry is representative of what happens across Britain is obviously ridiculous.
With the best will in the world, that sounds like rubbish to me. I cannot believe that anyone who is paid to talk about consent would come out with such utter rubbish, nor that a school would give a platform to someone who said such things. If they did, then clearly they are in the wrong and no well-reasoning person should hold such a view. But one person having a ridiculous view on sexual consent does not a rape culture make.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by JackEDeakin
Then you're a feminist.
No, I'm pro equality just as any decent human would be.
There's no rape culture because "you've heard some people say some things" and the reason there are less woman in executive positions is because men tend to work more than woman who are more likely to put careers on hold for children. More men kill themselves, more men get depressed more men work undesirable jobs. Where are the feminists campaigning for more inclusion in bin collection, manual labour and sewage work? There aren't any because feminists aren't concerned with the "jobs for men" they're concerned that men tend to progress further in their careers by working more than woman and surely woman should have equal outcomes regardless of the work they put in.
Original post by JackEDeakin
Then you're a feminist.
The term feminism itself is sexist, as it alludes to the idea that we should primarily be focused on womens issues. When in fact the real issues are not with rights of specific genders, but of societal attitudes to those that stray from stereotypical gender behaviors.
In otherwords, the term feminism is exactly one of the kinds of gender biases feminism itself should be fighting against.
Original post by JackEDeakin
I hate to break it to you guys who are saying that feminism is not about equal rights, but if you support gender equality, I'm afraid you are a feminist.
@cookiemonster15 This is one reason why being a feminist is considered a bad thing. And this person is supposed to be a non-radical feminist.
Original post by shreddingfish92
No, I'm pro equality just as any decent human would be.
There's no rape culture because "you've heard some people say some things" and the reason there are less woman in executive positions is because men tend to work more than woman who are more likely to put careers on hold for children. More men kill themselves, more men get depressed more men work undesirable jobs. Where are the feminists campaigning for more inclusion in bin collection, manual labour and sewage work? There aren't any because feminists aren't concerned with the "jobs for men" they're concerned that men tend to progress further in their careers by working more than woman and surely woman should have equal outcomes regardless of the work they put in.
There's no rape culture because "you've heard some people say some things" and the reason there are less woman in executive positions is because men tend to work more than woman who are more likely to put careers on hold for children. More men kill themselves, more men get depressed more men work undesirable jobs. Where are the feminists campaigning for more inclusion in bin collection, manual labour and sewage work? There aren't any because feminists aren't concerned with the "jobs for men" they're concerned that men tend to progress further in their careers by working more than woman and surely woman should have equal outcomes regardless of the work they put in.
Yes, and think why those things happen. Because of sexism.
Feminism is not bias towards any gender, it's called feminism because it came out of women were fought for their rights and that fight is still happening and it has developed to be about gender equality, which is a more broad description.
Original post by JackEDeakin
*someone disagrees with you (god forbid)*
*must be a joke*
lol
ok
good one
*must be a joke*
lol
ok
good one
Many apologies, your post appeared satirical to me. If you'll allow me to respond to the points in turn:
1) If women's lesser interest in STEM fields was purely societal, then why is there no increase in interest in more equal societies? Why is the level of interest essentially the same in Britain as in Afghanistan?
2) I should clarify, I mean in Western societies like Britain. Why is it sexist to say there is no rape culture in Britain? As rape is neither pervasive nor normalised in Britain - and that is the definition of a rape culture - there clearly isn't a rape culture here. And I do love the irony of this term, when the phrase was originally coined to highlight the levels of rape in male prisons!
3) Why can a man not comment on gender politics? I mean, really that is the only sexist thing that has been said! 'You're a man, therefore you cannot possibly know anything about gender politics' is essentially what you're saying.
4) I don't 'get off' on gender politics, I can assure you. More often than not, it's very much a process of banging your head on the proverbial wall. And again, why is it sexist for me to have an opinion on gender politics? Last I checked, we're all allowed to have our own opinions.
Original post by Hydeman
@cookiemonster15 This is one reason why being a feminist is considered a bad thing. And this person is supposed to be a non-radical feminist.
Idgi?
Why aren't you a feminist? (This is one of the provisos.)
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
Many apologies, your post appeared satirical to me. If you'll allow me to respond to the points in turn:
1) If women's lesser interest in STEM fields was purely societal, then why is there no increase in interest in more equal societies? Why is the level of interest essentially the same in Britain as in Afghanistan?
2) I should clarify, I mean in Western societies like Britain. Why is it sexist to say there is no rape culture in Britain? As rape is neither pervasive nor normalised in Britain - and that is the definition of a rape culture - there clearly isn't a rape culture here. And I do love the irony of this term, when the phrase was originally coined to highlight the levels of rape in male prisons!
3) Why can a man not comment on gender politics? I mean, really that is the only sexist thing that has been said! 'You're a man, therefore you cannot possibly know anything about gender politics' is essentially what you're saying.
4) I don't 'get off' on gender politics, I can assure you. More often than not, it's very much a process of banging your head on the proverbial wall. And again, why is it sexist for me to have an opinion on gender politics? Last I checked, we're all allowed to have our own opinions.
1) If women's lesser interest in STEM fields was purely societal, then why is there no increase in interest in more equal societies? Why is the level of interest essentially the same in Britain as in Afghanistan?
2) I should clarify, I mean in Western societies like Britain. Why is it sexist to say there is no rape culture in Britain? As rape is neither pervasive nor normalised in Britain - and that is the definition of a rape culture - there clearly isn't a rape culture here. And I do love the irony of this term, when the phrase was originally coined to highlight the levels of rape in male prisons!
3) Why can a man not comment on gender politics? I mean, really that is the only sexist thing that has been said! 'You're a man, therefore you cannot possibly know anything about gender politics' is essentially what you're saying.
4) I don't 'get off' on gender politics, I can assure you. More often than not, it's very much a process of banging your head on the proverbial wall. And again, why is it sexist for me to have an opinion on gender politics? Last I checked, we're all allowed to have our own opinions.
1. It isn't? It just isn't?
2. No, the phase was originally coined by feminists. Rape is normalised, I have literally heard people SO many times in my own circles say that women deserve to be raped, that some women are just begging to be raped - I hear it ALL the time here in the UK. The sexual harassment and abuse of women in the streets is also normalised by men and "lads".
3. Never said you couldn't comment.
4. Never said you couldn't have an opinion.
Original post by JackEDeakin
Yes, and think why those things happen. Because of sexism.
More women tend to put their careers on hold to have children because of sexism? How silly of me clearly it has nothing to do with them having vaginas and being able to give birth.
Original post by shreddingfish92
More women tend to put their careers on hold to have children because of sexism? How silly of me clearly it has nothing to do with them having vaginas and being able to give birth.
How ridiculous of you.
Original post by asexual slug
Idgi?
Why aren't you a feminist? (This is one of the provisos.)
Why aren't you a feminist? (This is one of the provisos.)
Are you asking me to explain my comment or explain more seriously why I don't call myself a feminist?
If the former, then it's to do with the arrogant attitude that, if you think gender equality is a goal worth pursuing, then you're not allowed to hold this view without associating yourself with a larger movement that claims to have the same goal.
If the latter: mainly because I quite like gender roles and don't agree with the views of many feminists on what constitutes rape. Most of all, I've no wish to be associated with people who buy into nonsense like the supposed gender pay gap and the idea of 'gender-balanced' boardrooms, parliaments, cabinets, etc.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Hydeman
Are you asking me to explain my comment or explain more seriously why I don't call myself a feminist?
If the former, then it's to do with the arrogant attitude that, if you think gender equality is a goal worth pursuing, then you're not allowed to hold this view without associating yourself with a larger movement that claims to have the same goal.
If the latter: mainly because I quite like gender roles and don't agree with the views of many feminists on what constitutes rape. Most of all, I've no wish to be associated with people who buy into nonsense like the supposed gender pay gap and the idea of 'gender-balanced' boardrooms, parliaments, cabinets, etc.
If the former, then it's to do with the arrogant attitude that, if you think gender equality is a goal worth pursuing, then you're not allowed to hold this view without associating yourself with a larger movement that claims to have the same goal.
If the latter: mainly because I quite like gender roles and don't agree with the views of many feminists on what constitutes rape. Most of all, I've no wish to be associated with people who buy into nonsense like the supposed gender pay gap and the idea of 'gender-balanced' boardrooms, parliaments, cabinets, etc.
What is wrong with a gender balance? Surely that's ideal?
Can you elaborate on your disagreement with many feminists on what constitutes rape? Rape is rape, I don't understand?
Original post by Hydeman
If the latter: mainly because I quite like gender roles
If the latter: mainly because I quite like gender roles
Such as? Why?
and don't agree with the views of many feminists on what constitutes rape.
Are you happy with the statutory definition of rape under S.1 SOA 2003?
Most of all, I've no wish to be associated with people who buy into nonsense like the supposed gender pay gap and the idea of 'gender-balanced' boardrooms, parliaments, cabinets, etc.
Just because they all claim to be 'feminists' does this mean you cannot be a feminist with differing views?
Original post by JackEDeakin
1. It isn't? It just isn't?
2. No, the phase was originally coined by feminists. Rape is normalised, I have literally heard people SO many times in my own circles say that women deserve to be raped, that some women are just begging to be raped - I hear it ALL the time here in the UK. The sexual harassment and abuse of women in the streets is also normalised by men and "lads".
3. Never said you couldn't comment.
4. Never said you couldn't have an opinion.
2. No, the phase was originally coined by feminists. Rape is normalised, I have literally heard people SO many times in my own circles say that women deserve to be raped, that some women are just begging to be raped - I hear it ALL the time here in the UK. The sexual harassment and abuse of women in the streets is also normalised by men and "lads".
3. Never said you couldn't comment.
4. Never said you couldn't have an opinion.
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTOFXLl7eh4
That's a link to a documentary where (at about 10 minutes) the study is discussed. It was across 53 countries, and if found the same level of interest in STEM subjects across them all. I wasn't just pulling it out of my backside, it was an actual scientific study, so I'm afraid 'It just isn't' doesn't really cut it as a rebuttal.
2) Actually, the first real use of the term was a documentary called 'Rape Culture' in the 70s about rape of both men and women. And here is a link to some stats about an actual rape culture:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8107039.stm
Just take a look at the figures, that's what a rape culture is. The fact that you hang out with bellends who say things like that is empirical, and you have no reason to suppose that is representative of the British population.
Any evidence (not empirical) of the normalisation of street harassment/abuse? And also, define street harassment/abuse, cause that's pretty ambiguous. I mean, if you're saying Britain has a rape culture cause some people catcall, then you're talking rubbish.
3) 'As a man, you can't decide what isn't offensive/damaging towards women' is clearly suggesting I shouldn't be able to comment on what isn't offensive or damaging for women.
4)' I don't understand how you get off thinking that you can decide what isn't damaging to women' is clearly suggesting I don't have the right to an opinion on what is damaging for women.
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTOFXLl7eh4
That's a link to a documentary where (at about 10 minutes) the study is discussed. It was across 53 countries, and if found the same level of interest in STEM subjects across them all. I wasn't just pulling it out of my backside, it was an actual scientific study, so I'm afraid 'It just isn't' doesn't really cut it as a rebuttal.
2) Actually, the first real use of the term was a documentary called 'Rape Culture' in the 70s about rape of both men and women. And here is a link to some stats about an actual rape culture:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8107039.stm
Just take a look at the figures, that's what a rape culture is. The fact that you hang out with bellends who say things like that is empirical, and you have no reason to suppose that is representative of the British population.
Any evidence (not empirical) of the normalisation of street harassment/abuse? And also, define street harassment/abuse, cause that's pretty ambiguous. I mean, if you're saying Britain has a rape culture cause some people catcall, then you're talking rubbish.
3) 'As a man, you can't decide what isn't offensive/damaging towards women' is clearly suggesting I shouldn't be able to comment on what isn't offensive or damaging for women.
4)' I don't understand how you get off thinking that you can decide what isn't damaging to women' is clearly suggesting I don't have the right to an opinion on what is damaging for women.
That's a link to a documentary where (at about 10 minutes) the study is discussed. It was across 53 countries, and if found the same level of interest in STEM subjects across them all. I wasn't just pulling it out of my backside, it was an actual scientific study, so I'm afraid 'It just isn't' doesn't really cut it as a rebuttal.
2) Actually, the first real use of the term was a documentary called 'Rape Culture' in the 70s about rape of both men and women. And here is a link to some stats about an actual rape culture:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8107039.stm
Just take a look at the figures, that's what a rape culture is. The fact that you hang out with bellends who say things like that is empirical, and you have no reason to suppose that is representative of the British population.
Any evidence (not empirical) of the normalisation of street harassment/abuse? And also, define street harassment/abuse, cause that's pretty ambiguous. I mean, if you're saying Britain has a rape culture cause some people catcall, then you're talking rubbish.
3) 'As a man, you can't decide what isn't offensive/damaging towards women' is clearly suggesting I shouldn't be able to comment on what isn't offensive or damaging for women.
4)' I don't understand how you get off thinking that you can decide what isn't damaging to women' is clearly suggesting I don't have the right to an opinion on what is damaging for women.
1. Science is theory, it isn't true, especially when you look at younger generations of women.
2. Rape cultures have extremes, but there is a rape culture in Britain and an idea that sexual harassment is ok, catcalling is one example that perpetuates the idea that sexual harassment is ok.
3. No it doesn't, it just means that you have no right to decide what isn't offensive or damaging towards women as a cis Male
4. No it isn't, same as 3.
Original post by JackEDeakin
What is wrong with a gender balance? Surely that's ideal?
No, a meritocracy is ideal, with some exceptions. I don't support the idea of group rights which, as far as I can see, is the basis for any demand that group X should be proportionally represented in anything at all, whether it be cabinets or boardrooms.
Somebody made a thread a few months ago about Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's decision to appoint a 'gender-balanced' cabinet and the arguments presented for it by those who supported that move were unimpressive, to put it kindly.
Can you elaborate on your disagreement with many feminists on what constitutes rape? Rape is rape, I don't understand?
Original post by asexual slug
Are you happy with the statutory definition of rape under S.1 SOA 2003?
It depends on the interpretation of 'intentionally' in that definition. For instance, I don't think that sex had while both parties are drunk should count as rape.
Original post by asexual slug
Such as? Why?
It's a personal preference. Call me old-fashioned, if you like.
Just because they all claim to be 'feminists' does this mean you cannot be a feminist with differing views?
Like I said, even supposedly non-radical feminism demands nonsense like the elimination of gender roles, the elimination of a fantasy pay gap and 'gender-balanced' cabinets and boardrooms. That alone would be enough reason for me not to call myself a feminist -- add to that the smug arrogance and self-righteousness, and it becomes a no-brainer.
Original post by JackEDeakin
1. Science is theory, it isn't true, especially when you look at younger generations of women.
2. Rape cultures have extremes, but there is a rape culture in Britain and an idea that sexual harassment is ok, catcalling is one example that perpetuates the idea that sexual harassment is ok.
3. No it doesn't, it just means that you have no right to decide what isn't offensive or damaging towards women as a cis Male
4. No it isn't, same as 3.
2. Rape cultures have extremes, but there is a rape culture in Britain and an idea that sexual harassment is ok, catcalling is one example that perpetuates the idea that sexual harassment is ok.
3. No it doesn't, it just means that you have no right to decide what isn't offensive or damaging towards women as a cis Male
4. No it isn't, same as 3.
1) You're using the defence 'Science isn't true'?! What does that even mean?! That people lied on the survey to fool us? I don't even know what you're getting at with that statement to be honest.
Interesting that you hold an opinion on gender politics, and that any scientific evidence prevented that runs contrary to it it discarded without consideration. That's exactly the ideological thinking that a religion uses.
2) So you're saying there's a rape culture in Britain, but not an extreme one? And any evidence at all that there is a widely held belief that sexual harassment is okay? Incidentally, I consider collating things like catcalling with far more serious issues like rape to be pretty awful. Suggesting that they are equatable is frankly degrading to people who have been through the horrendous experience of a sexual assault.
3) I absolutely have the right to believe what I want to, about what is offensive or damaging to women. At no point have I tried to force my view onto someone else, merely presented my opinion and the evidence supporting it.
4) See above.
The fact that you are quite simply ignoring any evidence presented that runs contrary to your belief means any further discussion is utterly pointless. You have faith, and whilst you're entitled to it, it makes debating the issue as futile as trying to debate someone out of their religion. Further, the suggestion that catcalling is in any way on the same level of seriousness as sexual assault and rape is abhorrent, I find it absolutely disgusting. So I shall end my part in this discussion henceforth. Have a good night.
Original post by JackEDeakin
1. Science is theory, it isn't true
You're very close to sounding like an anti-evolutionist right now.
Original post by Hydeman
It depends on the interpretation of 'intentionally' in that definition. For instance, I don't think that sex had while both parties are drunk should count as rape.
It depends on the interpretation of 'intentionally' in that definition. For instance, I don't think that sex had while both parties are drunk should count as rape.
What if the female was extremely intoxicated and the male only barely so?
If both parties were severely intoxicated?
Like I said, even supposedly non-radical feminism demands nonsense like the elimination of gender roles, the elimination of a fantasy pay gap and 'gender-balanced' cabinets and boardrooms.
Depends what you mean by 'elimination of gender roles'. I do not subscribe to such notions, but I also do not subscribe to the notion of a pay gap or the need for a 'gender-balance' (inevitably) at the expense of a meritocratic process.
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