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David Owen points out that EU implicated in Ukraine crisis Watch

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    Owen said on the "Today" programme this moring that EU blundering caused the Ukraine crisis. He says

    "The Eurozone must not be allowed to dominate EU foreign and security policy, in order to avoid blunders such as the Ukraine conflict or competition with NATO"

    This was well known to people who have been following the crisis.

    The EU looks eastwards in foreign policy, to where it borders Russia and the Middle East. The UK looks at the whole world. EU and UK interests do not coincide.

    The EU is also showing the first signs of a desire to exert its "muscle". If we all dance round together in perfect, loving union we will have the power to confront Russia, China etc. and create wars.
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    Indeed. How dare anyone offer a trade deal to another sovereign nation. The sheer audacity of daring to open economic relations with a state Russia viewed as it's own.

    Russia is the responsible party no one else.

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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Indeed. How dare anyone offer a trade deal to another sovereign nation. The sheer audacity of daring to open economic relations with a state Russia viewed as it's own.

    Russia is the responsible party no one else.

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    The way the EU supported the removal of a democratically elected government when they decided to sign a trade deal with Russia instead was shameful, for the simple reason they didnt do what they wanted to do. Russia has the right to trade with with other countries as well you know. It just shows how power hungry the EU is and what they are willing to do to get their own way even if they have to ignore democracy in order to get it.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Indeed. How dare anyone offer a trade deal to another sovereign nation. The sheer audacity of daring to open economic relations with a state Russia viewed as it's own.

    Russia is the responsible party no one else.
    Knowing the Ukraine was split down the middle on relations with the EU the EU was the irresponsible party. It was not just a trade deal, it offered loans with pro-EU terms and reforms to separate the Ukraine from Russian influence. It was designed to bring Ukraine towards the West.

    Parliamentary European Union Committee report: "The EU and Russia: before and beyond the crisis in Ukraine".

    "PHASE II: PRESIDENT YANUKOVYCH SUSPENDSSIGNATURE OF THE ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT—MAIDAN SQUARE PROTESTS

    185. In November 2013, President Yanukovych decidedto suspend the signature of the AA. The domestic economic situationhad become very pressing, partly due to Russia's restrictive trademeasures. EU Member States had committed to facilitating an InternationalMonetary Fund (IMF) loan in the region of $15 billion, but thiswas conditional on reforms which would have been difficult todeliver in the short term. On the other side, Russia offered Ukrainea $15 billion loan, without specific conditions, which was likelyto be accompanied by the lifting of Russian trade restrictionsand a large gas discount.[276]."

    Owen said on the Today programme that the EU had blundered.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Knowing the Ukraine was split down the middle on relations with the EU the EU was the irresponsible party. It was not just a trade deal, it offered loans with pro-EU terms and reforms to separate the Ukraine from Russian influence. It was designed to bring Ukraine towards the West.

    Committee report: "The EU and Russia: before and beyond the crisis in Ukraine".

    "PHASE II: PRESIDENT YANUKOVYCH SUSPENDSSIGNATURE OF THE ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT—MAIDAN SQUARE PROTESTS

    185. In November 2013, President Yanukovych decidedto suspend the signature of the AA. The domestic economic situationhad become very pressing, partly due to Russia's restrictive trademeasures. EU Member States had committed to facilitating an InternationalMonetary Fund (IMF) loan in the region of $15 billion, but thiswas conditional on reforms which would have been difficult todeliver in the short term. On the other side, Russia offered Ukrainea $15 billion loan, without specific conditions, which was likelyto be accompanied by the lifting of Russian trade restrictionsand a large gas discount.[276]."

    Owen said on the Today programme that the EU had blundered.
    And? The EU tries to reform a borderline dictatorship, offers it loans and relations the populace broadly support, yet is responsible for a third county annexing part of its territory and fomenting a civil war in its eastern regions? Do you really hate the EU so much you cannot see russian culpability here? Your argument is ludicrous. The Russian reaction to events was so extreme initial events are almost irrelevant at this point.

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    (Original post by Aj12)
    And? The EU tries to reform a borderline dictatorship, offers it loans and relations the populace broadly support, yet is responsible for a third county annexing part of its territory and fomenting a civil war in its eastern regions? Do you really hate the EU so much you cannot see russian culpability here? Your argument is ludicrous. The Russian reaction to events was so extreme initial events are almost irrelevant at this point.
    The point is not about the EU and Russia per se, it is about the fact that the greatest foreign policy interest for most of the EU lies to the East, to those countries on its borders. The UK has foreign policy interests across the globe. Furthermore the EU obsession with Russia and the Middle East draws us into these conflicts. If the UK were outside the EU it could mediate between the EU and its enemies. Lastly the EU is simply incompetent, it sent Merkel and Hollande to Russia without fully planning the campaign. We are are much safer away from such blundering diplomacy.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    The point is not about the EU and Russia per se, it is about the fact that the greatest foreign policy interest for most of the EU lies to the East, to those countries on its borders. The UK has foreign policy interests across the globe. Furthermore the EU obsession with Russia and the Middle East draws us into these conflicts. If the UK were outside the EU it could mediate between the EU and its enemies. Lastly the EU is simply incompetent, it sent Merkel and Hollande to Russia without fully planning the campaign. We are are much safer away from such blundering diplomacy.
    Our independent foreign policy has been heavily focused on these regions since the EU was little more than a thought in the heads of a few intellectuals. The majority of our defence and security policies are based around these two areas. If you honestly think leaving the EU will somehow change the focus from Russia and the Middle East then I really think you do not know much about British foreign policy. You understand we are a member of NATO yes? A defensive alliance wholly independent of the EU and focused on Russia. You would never see the UK try to mediate between the EU and Russia, because to do so would damage other core alliances and interests.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Our independent foreign policy has been heavily focused on these regions since the EU was little more than a thought in the heads of a few intellectuals. The majority of our defence and security policies are based around these two areas. If you honestly think leaving the EU will somehow change the focus from Russia and the Middle East then I really think you do not know much about British foreign policy. You understand we are a member of NATO yes? A defensive alliance wholly independent of the EU and focused on Russia. You would never see the UK try to mediate between the EU and Russia, because to do so would damage other core alliances and interests.
    You are obviously more expert than David Owen, who accuses the EU of blundering.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    You are obviously more expert than David Owen, who accuses the EU of blundering.
    Or I'd just rather appraise an argument based on its own merits, not some blind appeal to authority. Perhaps you should trust the EU as it is run by highly qualified and educated people, who know more about its workings than you, no?
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Or I'd just rather appraise an argument based on its own merits, not some blind appeal to authority. Perhaps you should trust the EU as it is run by highly qualified and educated people, who know more about its workings than you, no?
    Do you want full political union with the EU?
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Do you want full political union with the EU?
    No, given how each EU member uses the EU to pursue their own national interest it is doubtful to ever happen anyway.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    No, given how each EU member uses the EU to pursue their own national interest it is doubtful to ever happen anyway.
    It sounds like you want full union but despair of it happening.
 
 
 
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