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A Question to Muslims Watch

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    (Original post by ControversialLad)
    Both actually.

    Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

    Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
    At least the first of them refers to hypocrites, not to apostates. The Koran makes plenty of unfavourable references to apostasy, but makes does not explicitly recommend the death penalty. That comes from a Hadith, and a Sahih Hadith at that.
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    (Original post by Blondie987)
    surely by that logic you could interpret any religion in whatever way you want, completely disregarding any of it and just basically using the name
    I wouldn't say that it can be pursued to that extreme, but generally speaking, the difference in interpretation is over scripture and meaning and how it should apply.

    For instance, the common defence from apologists is that the IS is un-Islamic because the Koran says that taking one innocent life is the equivalent, at least in the eyes of the Islamic god, of killing all of mankind. This is paraphrased from the actual verse, which refers to killing anybody not guilty of 'corruption done in the land' in the same terms. This corruption includes everything from homosexuality to apostasy (which are excluded from the conservative interpretation of the word 'innocent life' in the paraphrased version).

    The IS simply claim that those Muslims who resist their Caliphate are apostates, and therefore non-innocent and liable to be killed. That's their interpretation, and it's quite contained within what it says in the Koran and Hadith. So, you see, it's not that open to interpretation.
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    (Original post by Blondie987)
    surely by that logic you could interpret any religion in whatever way you want, completely disregarding any of it and just basically using the name
    They interpret the quranic verses differently than the 'moderates', they don't make up random stuff. The 'moderates' disregard more of the quran than ISIS!

    Are you meant just to cherry pick which verses to follow and which to not?
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    (Original post by ControversialLad)
    The 'Moderate' Musims follow most but not all of the commands in the Quran. Killing people for leaving Islam as one such example.

    But, ISIS do follow that command, and all of the commands, more commands than the moderates anyway.

    So, my question is: Don't ISIS follow the Quran/Allah/Prophet Muhammad better than the other Muslims?

    Don't give me the 'if you kill one person, it is as if you've killed the whole of mankind', as that only applied to the children of Arabia at a certain point in time.
    wait are u sincere do u want answers or do u want to bash Islam.
    If u want answers i will explain.

    It seems u dont want answers. U just want to bash i can answer your claims but do u want to debate me or are u sincerely looking for an answer
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I wouldn't say that it can be pursued to that extreme, but generally speaking, the difference in interpretation is over scripture and meaning and how it should apply.

    For instance, the common defence from apologists is that the IS is un-Islamic because the Koran says that taking one innocent life is the equivalent, at least in the eyes of the Islamic god, of killing all of mankind. This is paraphrased from the actual verse, which refers to killing anybody not guilty of 'corruption done in the land' in the same terms. This corruption includes everything from homosexuality to apostasy (which are excluded from the conservative interpretation of the word 'innocent life' in the paraphrased version).

    The IS simply claim that those Muslims who resist their Caliphate are apostates, and therefore non-innocent and liable to be killed. That's their interpretation, and it's quite contained within the scripture. So, you see, it's not as wide as you'd think.
    well, you're entitled to your opinion, but personally I believe that ISIS do not represent Islam and if you were to go by that logic you could certainly criticize almost every other religion in the same way at some point in history
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    (Original post by luminarychild)
    Damn, Daniel
    Danyaal*
    :rofl:
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    At least the first of them refers to hypocrites, not to apostates. The Koran makes plenty of unfavourable references to apostasy, but makes does not explicitly recommend the death penalty. That comes from a Hadith, and a Sahih Hadith at that.
    'slay them wherever you find them' sounds like a death penaltyto me.
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    (Original post by ControversialLad)
    They interpret the quranic verses differently than the 'moderates', they don't make up random stuff. The 'moderates' disregard more of the quran than ISIS!

    Are you meant just to cherry pick which verses to follow and which to not?
    No, you don't take everything at face value. This is why we have scholars, some more extreme in their interpretation than others, whom we listen to to understand what certain ayahs mean. Ayahs that seem really extreme were specific for a certain time and not the universal muslim foreign policy. If you study the context you'll have a better understanding.
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    (Original post by Blondie987)
    well, you're entitled to your opinion, but personally I believe that ISIS do not represent Islam and if you were to go by that logic you could certainly criticize almost every other religion in the same way at some point in history
    I could, and I do. I'm very suspicious of anybody who claims to be the authority on what constitutes 'true' Islam or 'true' Christianity or 'true' anything -- people who claim this usually have an obvious vested interest in doing so, and that has to be taken into account, I think.
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    (Original post by ControversialLad)
    They interpret the quranic verses differently than the 'moderates', they don't make up random stuff. The 'moderates' disregard more of the quran than ISIS!

    Are you meant just to cherry pick which verses to follow and which to not?
    But that is what I was talking about regarding the religion itself evolving to suit societal changes and personally, I believe that such religious texts are much more a guide to be scrutinized rather than directly followed, also I doubt very much that these texts have not been at least tampered with at some point in history
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I could, and I do. I'm very suspicious of anybody who claims to be the authority on what constitutes 'true' Islam or 'true' Christianity or 'true' anything -- people who claim this usually have an obvious vested interest in doing so.
    well fair enough, personally I'm agnostic anyway and do believe that every belief should be studied, questioned and criticized and not followed blindly but I'm sure the vast majority of Muslims believe this as well
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    (Original post by muzi123)
    wait are u sincere do u want answers or do u want to bash Islam.
    If u want answers i will explain.

    It seems u dont want answers. U just want to bash i can answer your claims but do u want to debate me or are u sincerely looking for an answer
    Answers please
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    (Original post by ControversialLad)
    'slay them wherever you find them' sounds like a death penaltyto me.
    Yes, but with no explicit reference to apostates. That requires the context of Hadith.
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    (Original post by ControversialLad)
    'slay them wherever you find them' sounds like a death penaltyto me.
    This ayah is in reference to a time of battle. The Muslims had retaken Makkah after being forced out. On that day the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) forgave all his enemies, including the man who killed his daughter. Later, a Quranic ayah was sent forth, giving the non-muslims a four month grace period. If they decided to become Muslims, they could stay, if not they were to leave. THIS IS NOT A UNIVERSAL ISLAMIC FOREIGN POLICY. It was SPECIFIC to this situation.

    I'm not a scholar or anything - I could have made some mistakes, but contextual information can help. At least that's my understanding of the ayah.
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    (Original post by muzi123)
    do u want to debate me or are u sincerely looking for an answer
    Why should the two be mutually exclusive?
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    (Original post by Blondie987)
    surely by that logic you could interpret any religion in whatever way you want, completely disregarding any of it and just basically using the name
    Isn't that what the sects within most religions do? Just take their own interpretation and follow it like its the sole truth?
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    (Original post by BristolFresher15)
    Isn't that what the sects within most religions do? Just take their own interpretation and follow it like its the sole truth?
    I'm sure many do but there is only so much you can interpret form a religion before it takes on a completely new meaning altogether and, imo, Islam today is far removed from the belief that murder is justified
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    (Original post by Blondie987)
    I'm sure many do but there is only so much you can interpret form a religion before it takes on a completely new meaning altogether and, imo, Islam today is far removed from the belief that murder is justified
    That may as well be true. But my main point is that considering all this room for interpretation, no one sect can be accurately claimed to be the sole truth. And considering the violence, both stated and hinted at in the Qur'an, it can be said that ISIS' interpretation isn't that far of a stretch, even if it is quite horrible and definitely not popular thought in the general Muslim community.

    Edit: I'm assuming you've had contact with Muslim people mainly in Western or European settings. You may alter your viewpoint slightly if you visited a much more strictly Muslim society; like rural Pakistan. (Its a place where culture is mixed in with Islam and where a lot of terrorism stems from.)
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    (Original post by ControversialLad)
    The 'Moderate' Musims follow most but not all of the commands in the Quran. Killing people for leaving Islam as one such example.

    But, ISIS do follow that command, and all of the commands, more commands than the moderates anyway.

    So, my question is: Don't ISIS follow the Quran/Allah/Prophet Muhammad better than the other Muslims?

    Don't give me the 'if you kill one person, it is as if you've killed the whole of mankind', as that only applied to the children of Arabia at a certain point in time.
    Your definition of moderate Muslim is so incorrect. You should be called 'StupidLad' instead of 'ControversialLad' considering its hard to take you serious. /thread
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    ISIS kill kurds, fellow muslims who follow islam differently.
    ISIS kill shias, fellow muslims who follow islam differently.
    ISIS kill mulsim children who refuse to fight for them.
    ISIS blow up mosques.
    ISIS burn muslims alive, a practise never performed during the time of the prophet.
    ISIS kill anyone who refuses to follow THEIR teachings be they muslim or not. Muslims are the biggest victims of ISIS brutality. So you tell me OP, are ISIS following Islam and the Quran better than moderate muslims? ex muslim atheist btw who objects to bigotry as much as irationality.
 
 
 
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