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Should Christians ignore all laws within the old testament?
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Matthew 5:17 ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Definitions of fulfill:
1.Carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
2.Achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
Does this verse not mean that Christians should uphold the laws of the Old Testament, some of which are truly detestable?
Definitions of fulfill:
1.Carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
2.Achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
Does this verse not mean that Christians should uphold the laws of the Old Testament, some of which are truly detestable?
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#3
As I understand it, the old testament was law until the Messiah appears. Then whatever he says goes.
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#4
I think its more that he had come to fulfill the prophets so the law was no longer nessesery.
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#5
Pretty grey area from what I think of it. For example would that mean being LGBT is no more considering sinning? That all sins will be forgiven, as they are not considered sins if the law has been abrogated? What commandments if any remains?
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#6
(Original post by Berrers)
Matthew 5:17 ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Definitions of fulfill:
1.Carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
2.Achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
Does this verse not mean that Christians should uphold the laws of the Old Testament, some of which are truly detestable?
Matthew 5:17 ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Definitions of fulfill:
1.Carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
2.Achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
Does this verse not mean that Christians should uphold the laws of the Old Testament, some of which are truly detestable?
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#8
i regularly break the injunction against eating prawns:
Leviticus 11:9-12King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
Leviticus 11:9-12King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
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(Original post by the bear)
i regularly break the injunction against eating prawns:
Leviticus 11:9-12King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
i regularly break the injunction against eating prawns:
Leviticus 11:9-12King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
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(Original post by Gwilym101)
As I understand it, the old testament was law until the Messiah appears. Then whatever he says goes.
As I understand it, the old testament was law until the Messiah appears. Then whatever he says goes.
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#11
(Original post by Berrers)
Would you consider yourself a Christian?
Would you consider yourself a Christian?
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#12
(Original post by Berrers)
What about things that he doesn't address, some laws in the Old Testament are abolished by Jesus e.g. stuff relating to the Sabbath, but what of Old Testament Laws that Jesus does not mention?
What about things that he doesn't address, some laws in the Old Testament are abolished by Jesus e.g. stuff relating to the Sabbath, but what of Old Testament Laws that Jesus does not mention?
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and the second is similar, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' on these hang all the law and the prophets
Also in the woman caught in adultery he says 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'
I interpret this as jesus saying the only laws that are realy important are the ones about being good to each other and the ones that have no obvious perpose like kosher, gay hate, sabbath can go hang.
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(Original post by earthworm)
Jesus stated the greatest comandment is
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and the second is similar, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' on these hang all the law and the prophets
Also in the woman caught in adultery he says 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'
I interpret this as jesus saying the only laws that are realy important are the ones about being good to each other and the ones that have no obvious perpose like kosher, gay hate, sabbath can go hang.
Jesus stated the greatest comandment is
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and the second is similar, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' on these hang all the law and the prophets
Also in the woman caught in adultery he says 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone'
I interpret this as jesus saying the only laws that are realy important are the ones about being good to each other and the ones that have no obvious perpose like kosher, gay hate, sabbath can go hang.
Firstly, theres is doubt as to whether Jesus ever said the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Many scholars believe that it was added to the story at a much later date. I will link you to a website showing this in detail as this is not a key point.
Secondly, the idea of being good to your neighbour means very little to God, it is clear within scripture that God does not care for human deeds and the actions of man as long as man adheres to Gods rule that you stated "Love the lord your God with all your mind... etc". Does this not show how he is a capricious and selfish God? To back up the idea of human deeds meaning nothing I will reference the bible
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:14-18 NIV) Finally, may I ask if you are against Gay Relations/Marriage, are you against adultery and are you against eating something that mixes meat and dairy?
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/.../117-31.0.html
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(Original post by Supersaps)
I really like this thread.
I really like this thread.
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#16
(Original post by Berrers)
Three things;
Firstly, theres is doubt as to whether Jesus ever said the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Many scholars believe that it was added to the story at a much later date. I will link you to a website showing this in detail as this is not a key point.
Secondly, the idea of being good to your neighbour means very little to God, it is clear within scripture that God does not care for human deeds and the actions of man as long as man adheres to Gods rule that you stated "Love the lord your God with all your mind... etc". Does this not show how he is a capricious and selfish God? To back up the idea of human deeds meaning nothing I will reference the bible
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:14-18 NIV) Finally, may I ask if you are against Gay Relations/Marriage, are you against adultery and are you against eating something that mixes meat and dairy?
Three things;
Firstly, theres is doubt as to whether Jesus ever said the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Many scholars believe that it was added to the story at a much later date. I will link you to a website showing this in detail as this is not a key point.
Secondly, the idea of being good to your neighbour means very little to God, it is clear within scripture that God does not care for human deeds and the actions of man as long as man adheres to Gods rule that you stated "Love the lord your God with all your mind... etc". Does this not show how he is a capricious and selfish God? To back up the idea of human deeds meaning nothing I will reference the bible
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:14-18 NIV) Finally, may I ask if you are against Gay Relations/Marriage, are you against adultery and are you against eating something that mixes meat and dairy?
To your second point Jesus talks in many places about being good to each other being akin to being good to him
Eg matthew 25
40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Matthew 12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
And the apostles noted;
Galatians 5
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
As for your question on kosher, i feel that peters vision in acts 10 suggests i can eat my sausages.
Peter got hungry and started thinking about lunch. While lunch was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw the skies open up. Something that looked like a huge blanket lowered by ropes at its four corners settled on the ground. Every kind of animal and reptile and bird you could think of was on it. Then a voice came: “Go to it, Peter—kill and eat.”
Re homosexuality my feelings are that if there is no abomonation on eachother there is no real abomonation to god. Also its not realy any of my buisness where othere men put their willys. And if it is a sin (which i dont think it is) they will be judged by god.
If we go by the old testement all the time my baby daughter could be sold into slavery.
Exodus 21.
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are
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#17
(Original post by Berrers)
Matthew 5:17 ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Definitions of fulfill:
1.Carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
2.Achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
Does this verse not mean that Christians should uphold the laws of the Old Testament, some of which are truly detestable?
Matthew 5:17 ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Definitions of fulfill:
1.Carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
2.Achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
Does this verse not mean that Christians should uphold the laws of the Old Testament, some of which are truly detestable?
The Law was a method of salvation for Israel in the time before the Word became flesh. Given to the Israelites after the Fall, it directed them towards God. Humans distanced themselves from God in the Fall, so humans must work to get back to God, rather than the other way around. However, because we are imperfect and sinful, we require God's grace to start a kind of theosis - the process of becoming more like God.
Because humans had to work to get back to God, and only God could reconcile humans with Godself, the only possible solution is a divine and human person. St Gregory of Nazianzus wrote, "what is not assumed is not saved" - i.e. if Jesus weren't human, Christian salvation theology wouldn't work, because a human had to reconcile humanity with God, but also if Jesus weren't God, then his death would have no significance because humans are unable to do that perfect sacrifice, whereas because God is goodness, beauty, and sinlessness (among other things) himself, God can.
If you read some of St Paul's letters in the New Testament, he talks about how Christians are under grace through faith in Christ (justification by faith), and not therefore under the Law. See particularly Galatians 2:15-end of the letter.
Hope this helps
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#18
(Original post by Mazzini)
No, it doesn't.
The Law was a method of salvation for Israel in the time before the Word became flesh. Given to the Israelites after the Fall, it directed them towards God. Humans distanced themselves from God in the Fall, so humans must work to get back to God, rather than the other way around. However, because we are imperfect and sinful, we require God's grace to start a kind of theosis - the process of becoming more like God.
Because humans had to work to get back to God, and only God could reconcile humans with Godself, the only possible solution is a divine and human person. St Gregory of Nazianzus wrote, "what is not assumed is not saved" - i.e. if Jesus weren't human, Christian salvation theology wouldn't work, because a human had to reconcile humanity with God, but also if Jesus weren't God, then his death would have no significance because humans are unable to do that perfect sacrifice, whereas because God is goodness, beauty, and sinlessness (among other things) himself, God can.
If you read some of St Paul's letters in the New Testament, he talks about how Christians are under grace through faith in Christ (justification by faith), and not therefore under the Law. See particularly Galatians 2:15-end of the letter.
Hope this helps
No, it doesn't.
The Law was a method of salvation for Israel in the time before the Word became flesh. Given to the Israelites after the Fall, it directed them towards God. Humans distanced themselves from God in the Fall, so humans must work to get back to God, rather than the other way around. However, because we are imperfect and sinful, we require God's grace to start a kind of theosis - the process of becoming more like God.
Because humans had to work to get back to God, and only God could reconcile humans with Godself, the only possible solution is a divine and human person. St Gregory of Nazianzus wrote, "what is not assumed is not saved" - i.e. if Jesus weren't human, Christian salvation theology wouldn't work, because a human had to reconcile humanity with God, but also if Jesus weren't God, then his death would have no significance because humans are unable to do that perfect sacrifice, whereas because God is goodness, beauty, and sinlessness (among other things) himself, God can.
If you read some of St Paul's letters in the New Testament, he talks about how Christians are under grace through faith in Christ (justification by faith), and not therefore under the Law. See particularly Galatians 2:15-end of the letter.
Hope this helps
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#19
Been thinking about this issue quite a bit recently, since it's become a hot topic with a lot of issues. I think the Old Testament Law, while definitely not holding Christians in bondage as Mazzini rightly says in pointing to Galatians. However, it's clear that there is still things clearly called to be sins, in Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
So I guess I'd say that whilst the Old Testament law is no longer a master to us, it educates us as to what pleases God and what displeases God. Obviously taking the Laws in the context of a theocracy and a nation moving into a land that God wanted to preserve, but that's another issue. The key thing is not to take the law in the two extremes - the view that says we need to obey word-for-word all that the Law commands to please God and the view which says the law is done away with and no longer has any purpose for Christians.
Thought this is a fab video on aspects of the subject (Superb channel as well) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BGO9Mmd_cU
So I guess I'd say that whilst the Old Testament law is no longer a master to us, it educates us as to what pleases God and what displeases God. Obviously taking the Laws in the context of a theocracy and a nation moving into a land that God wanted to preserve, but that's another issue. The key thing is not to take the law in the two extremes - the view that says we need to obey word-for-word all that the Law commands to please God and the view which says the law is done away with and no longer has any purpose for Christians.
Thought this is a fab video on aspects of the subject (Superb channel as well) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BGO9Mmd_cU
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#20
(Original post by hogree)
Been thinking about this issue quite a bit recently, since it's become a hot topic with a lot of issues. I think the Old Testament Law, while definitely not holding Christians in bondage as Mazzini rightly says in pointing to Galatians. However, it's clear that there is still things clearly called to be sins, in Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
So I guess I'd say that whilst the Old Testament law is no longer a master to us, it educates us as to what pleases God and what displeases God. Obviously taking the Laws in the context of a theocracy and a nation moving into a land that God wanted to preserve, but that's another issue. The key thing is not to take the law in the two extremes - the view that says we need to obey word-for-word all that the Law commands to please God and the view which says the law is done away with and no longer has any purpose for Christians.
Thought this is a fab video on aspects of the subject (Superb channel as well) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BGO9Mmd_cU
Been thinking about this issue quite a bit recently, since it's become a hot topic with a lot of issues. I think the Old Testament Law, while definitely not holding Christians in bondage as Mazzini rightly says in pointing to Galatians. However, it's clear that there is still things clearly called to be sins, in Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
So I guess I'd say that whilst the Old Testament law is no longer a master to us, it educates us as to what pleases God and what displeases God. Obviously taking the Laws in the context of a theocracy and a nation moving into a land that God wanted to preserve, but that's another issue. The key thing is not to take the law in the two extremes - the view that says we need to obey word-for-word all that the Law commands to please God and the view which says the law is done away with and no longer has any purpose for Christians.
Thought this is a fab video on aspects of the subject (Superb channel as well) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BGO9Mmd_cU
"3 ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 ‘Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
5 ‘Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
6 ‘Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
7 ‘Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.
8 ‘Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
9 ‘Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
10 ‘Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 ‘Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely[b] on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
They're less culturally-bound, and also come from Jesus (albeit via oral tradition and the gospel's writer).
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