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    Do you believe that there is a crime that is worth eternal punishment?
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    no
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    Being a Burnley fan. Punishable by a lifetime of being a Burnley fan.

    Justice done.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Being a Burnley fan. Punishable by a lifetime of being a Burnley fan.

    Justice done.
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    (Original post by Berrers)
    Do you believe that there is a crime that is worth eternal punishment?
    As a human I should imagine we can all think of people throughout history and even today who shouldn't have an eternity in heaven but we do not know the mind of God, only his nature which is that he loves us all and he desires all of us to come into the knowledge of his amazing saving grace,

    There are a few verses in the bible that mention blaspheming against the Holy Spirit as being an unforgivable sin.

    "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven" (Luke 12:10)

    As I understand it this verse refers to those who refuse Christ having heard the gospel, being convicted of their sin and the need to repent but refuse to do so, a deliberate act, in arrogance and rebellion.

    We read that Paul was a blasphemer but was forgiven as he did it out of ignorance, as soon as he understood the grace of God and the love of Jesus he repented and was forgiven.

    1 Timothy 1:13-15 “Although I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

    There are a number of schools of thought on it though.


    What about you?
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    I hope so.
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    Although personaly I dont belive in hell rather an absence of God
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    Personally I do not believe so. For punishment to be just it must also be finite - one of the problems I have with common non-universalistic arguments is the seperation of justice and love, that while God *is* love, his sense of justice overrides come judgement. That while he loves us so that he would have us all saved, his sense of justice will not allow for it.

    Universalism, even though I can't quite say I fully endorse it in its entirety, tries to reconcile the characteristics as one. If divine justice is eternal punishment for finite crimes then humans start to appear more capable of love than God, in a realm where love is not capable of fulfilling the Law. What we are then left with then is two incomplete, competing categories of God, neither creating a holistic entity.

    If however we assent to the notion that they appear hand in hand, that moraland divine justice is that which is loving, then 'deserves' becomes an obsolete concept. The law of God becomes not a lex talens method of punishment (where punishment is the method of satisfaction from God's wraith) but instead an extension of the process of grace where punishment has a correcting purpose towards sanctification.

    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Being a Burnley fan. Punishable by a lifetime of being a Burnley fan.

    Justice done.
    In which case, the Stockport County fan waves hello from the lowest rung of hell :I
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    (Original post by Racoon)
    As a human I should imagine we can all think of people throughout history and even today who shouldn't have an eternity in heaven but we do not know the mind of God, only his nature which is that he loves us all and he desires all of us to come into the knowledge of his amazing saving grace,

    There are a few verses in the bible that mention blaspheming against the Holy Spirit as being an unforgivable sin.

    "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven" (Luke 12:10)

    As I understand it this verse refers to those who refuse Christ having heard the gospel, being convicted of their sin and the need to repent but refuse to do so, a deliberate act, in arrogance and rebellion.

    We read that Paul was a blasphemer but was forgiven as he did it out of ignorance, as soon as he understood the grace of God and the love of Jesus he repented and was forgiven.

    1 Timothy 1:13-15 “Although I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

    There are a number of schools of thought on it though.


    What about you?
    Personally I feel that there is no crime worth eternal punishment, and this is where I find an issue with the Christain faith. If we are to look at what is stated in the Bible regarding the mechanics of hell we are told that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and the Messiah then they will enter hell. Within which they will suffer for eternity in the "lakes of fire" with the "weeping and gnashing of teeth". This is immensely distrubing to me as this is an eternal punishment for simply believing something on no evidence but solely faith. This seems to me to be the traits of an unjust God, someone who punishes someone for simply having alternate thoughts to me can only be seen to be a totalitarian tyrant. Similar to Mao Zedong during the 100 flowers campaign, within which those who did not agree with the CCP(Chinese Communist Party) were sent to "Thought Reformation Camps" in which they were forced into believing in the CCP. I would call this an unfair and unjust regime, and yet is this not the exact same thing we see within heaven and hell?
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    (Original post by earthworm)
    Although personaly I dont belive in hell rather an absence of God
    How can you draw an absence of God from the biblical descriptions of "lake of fire and brimstone" - Rev 20:10 and also "The weeping and gnashing of teeth" -Luke 13:28, and there are many other verses like this, so other than the idea of physical torment and punishment I cannot see any alternate descriptions here. I am very interested to see how you arrived at the idea of it just being an absence of a God as my dad holds the same view. Many Thanks
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    (Original post by Berrers)
    How can you draw an absence of God from the biblical descriptions of "lake of fire and brimstone" - Rev 20:10 and also "The weeping and gnashing of teeth" -Luke 13:28, and there are many other verses like this, so other than the idea of physical torment and punishment I cannot see any alternate descriptions here. I am very interested to see how you arrived at the idea of it just being an absence of a God as my dad holds the same view. Many Thanks
    Sin is anything that separates man from God.
    God is Life so as soon as Adam & Eve sinned they became mortal ... "the soul that sins, it shall die". The weeping & gnashing of teeth is bitterness & regret because "the books are opened", people are faced with their own rejection of God and what he offered ... God does everything he can to save people but sadly many condemn themselves because they choose their own ways. The fire is the destruction, rather than force people to writhe in torment for ever ... that would achieve nothing.
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    (Original post by earthworm)
    Although personaly I dont belive in hell rather an absence of God
    That is what hell's described as. Hell is being away from God's presence

    Psalm 16:11 You make known to me the path of life;in your presence there is fullness of joy;at your right hand are pleasures forevermore

    Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
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    (Original post by Berrers)
    Personally I feel that there is no crime worth eternal punishment, and this is where I find an issue with the Christain faith. If we are to look at what is stated in the Bible regarding the mechanics of hell we are told that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and the Messiah then they will enter hell. Within which they will suffer for eternity in the "lakes of fire" with the "weeping and gnashing of teeth". This is immensely distrubing to me as this is an eternal punishment for simply believing something on no evidence but solely faith. This seems to me to be the traits of an unjust God, someone who punishes someone for simply having alternate thoughts to me can only be seen to be a totalitarian tyrant. Similar to Mao Zedong during the 100 flowers campaign, within which those who did not agree with the CCP(Chinese Communist Party) were sent to "Thought Reformation Camps" in which they were forced into believing in the CCP. I would call this an unfair and unjust regime, and yet is this not the exact same thing we see within heaven and hell?
    Are you suggesting there's no evidence for the resurrection? Are you suggesting there's no evidence of God? Are you suggesting atheism is the most rational standpoint given the life we experience day to day?
 
 
 
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