Is there Free Will within Heaven?
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This is how I see the whole religious free will ********. Back in the 18th century and so on, when our lovely whities used to go around Africa to bring slaves in, so that they can pick potatoes for Mrs. Jackson, we were giving them a choice too. It's not like we held their arms with our own and controlled them to rip the vegetables out of the ground; we just said to them, you either pick this up, or you're gonna have **** kicked out of you.
That was a choice. Not free will. Same with God - you either accept the ridiculous for the world we live in demands, or you go to hell. I'm not being religious because it's my will, I'm being religious as a result of an ultimate ultimatum where I don't want to end up burning alive in hell forever, even though, as senseless as it would seem to me, a creation of God, I ironically struggle with the bigger part of his retarded project. But you know, keep praying to him, he might take a daily break from killing African children to reward you with a nice car for going through with his (a.k.a not your) will.
That was a choice. Not free will. Same with God - you either accept the ridiculous for the world we live in demands, or you go to hell. I'm not being religious because it's my will, I'm being religious as a result of an ultimate ultimatum where I don't want to end up burning alive in hell forever, even though, as senseless as it would seem to me, a creation of God, I ironically struggle with the bigger part of his retarded project. But you know, keep praying to him, he might take a daily break from killing African children to reward you with a nice car for going through with his (a.k.a not your) will.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Withengar
Is there free will in Narnia? Oh, wait Narnia doesn't exist. Neither does Heaven. Stop wasting your time with this nonsense.
I understand your viewpoint, but the difference is that people do commit their lives adhering to an ideology in which they will enter this realm, whereas people do not believe that as a reward they will enter Narnia.
Since when was it ok to bash religion? You don't believe in it? Sure. But others do, that shouldn't affect you. We aren't deluded, it's called faith.
To answer OP's question:
We will never know for sure if there is free will or not in Heaven, but I do know that God didn't want mindless robots, which is why he gave us free will in the first place. I also know that evil does not exist in Heaven. So I reckon there is free will in Heaven, but once you enter, any trace of human sin or evil is completely eradicated, which is why everyone is happy to live for eternity praising God.
So basically, there is not evil in Heaven, it's not possible. There is free will in Heaven, but by that time there will be no evil, which is why it's so perfect.
To answer OP's question:
We will never know for sure if there is free will or not in Heaven, but I do know that God didn't want mindless robots, which is why he gave us free will in the first place. I also know that evil does not exist in Heaven. So I reckon there is free will in Heaven, but once you enter, any trace of human sin or evil is completely eradicated, which is why everyone is happy to live for eternity praising God.
So basically, there is not evil in Heaven, it's not possible. There is free will in Heaven, but by that time there will be no evil, which is why it's so perfect.
Original post by Arkasia
Why? If nothing exists after death then there is no sound reason why their actions and faiths here make a difference.
It makes no difference in the long run, but it makes a difference to their everyday ideas and beliefs, I know that many people are only Christians for the safety blanket effect that it offers. And so if that safety blanket is removed then they are believing in what is an ideology that promises lies. That is why it matters, because I want to help people come to terms with the reality of their contradictory beliefs
Original post by anonymousm3
Since when was it ok to bash religion? You don't believe in it? Sure. But others do, that shouldn't affect you. We aren't deluded, it's called faith.
To answer OP's question:
We will never know for sure if there is free will or not in Heaven, but I do know that God didn't want mindless robots, which is why he gave us free will in the first place. I also know that evil does not exist in Heaven. So I reckon there is free will in Heaven, but once you enter, any trace of human sin or evil is completely eradicated, which is why everyone is happy to live for eternity praising God.
So basically, there is not evil in Heaven, it's not possible. There is free will in Heaven, but by that time there will be no evil, which is why it's so perfect.
To answer OP's question:
We will never know for sure if there is free will or not in Heaven, but I do know that God didn't want mindless robots, which is why he gave us free will in the first place. I also know that evil does not exist in Heaven. So I reckon there is free will in Heaven, but once you enter, any trace of human sin or evil is completely eradicated, which is why everyone is happy to live for eternity praising God.
So basically, there is not evil in Heaven, it's not possible. There is free will in Heaven, but by that time there will be no evil, which is why it's so perfect.
To bash religion has been OK since religion has been forced upon you, whether it be through indoctrination as a child or through religious bodies (church) begin exempt from taxation. When religion gets excuses simply by hiding behind its own sanctity that is when it deserves to be bashed.
Regarding the original question, I don't see how you can arrive at the idea of having free will and yet there being no evil, and as you say heaven is a place free from evil, then how did the devil come to be if heaven is free of evil?
Original post by Berrers
To bash religion has been OK since religion has been forced upon you, whether it be through indoctrination as a child or through religious bodies (church) begin exempt from taxation. When religion gets excuses simply by hiding behind its own sanctity that is when it deserves to be bashed.
Regarding the original question, I don't see how you can arrive at the idea of having free will and yet there being no evil, and as you say heaven is a place free from evil, then how did the devil come to be if heaven is free of evil?
Regarding the original question, I don't see how you can arrive at the idea of having free will and yet there being no evil, and as you say heaven is a place free from evil, then how did the devil come to be if heaven is free of evil?
I'm being forced to go to school and accept LGBTs but you don't see me bashing anything. I could argue that LGBTs are hiding behind equality. (But I don't). I just accept what people do, even though it's against my religion, and I leave it alone.
As I said, we can never know for sure, it's just my understanding of it. The devil is, unfortunately, quite powerful too... I don't want to start saying the wrong thing but he is very manipulative and I guess he is the creator of evil. If Lucifer hadn't fallen, evil wouldn't exist.
Original post by anonymousm3
I'm being forced to go to school and accept LGBTs but you don't see me bashing anything. I could argue that LGBTs are hiding behind equality. (But I don't). I just accept what people do, even though it's against my religion, and I leave it alone.
As I said, we can never know for sure, it's just my understanding of it. The devil is, unfortunately, quite powerful too... I don't want to start saying the wrong thing but he is very manipulative and I guess he is the creator of evil. If Lucifer hadn't fallen, evil wouldn't exist.
As I said, we can never know for sure, it's just my understanding of it. The devil is, unfortunately, quite powerful too... I don't want to start saying the wrong thing but he is very manipulative and I guess he is the creator of evil. If Lucifer hadn't fallen, evil wouldn't exist.
The difference is that you should be allow to critique the idea of LGBT's and while I disagree with your objection to it, I would still defend your right to express your opinion with my life, this is what this whole thread is about. It is about the ability to express your opinion or view without the fear of consequences that involve violent action.
Many Christians will argue there is no free will in heaven, it's not an uncommon premise.
In fact, it's tied to the popular medieval idea of the beatific vision.
Posted from TSR Mobile
In fact, it's tied to the popular medieval idea of the beatific vision.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Mark 12 has the best repost to this.
24Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d ? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
So as i understand it, as humans we cannot understand heaven just as we dont understand angels.
24Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d ? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
So as i understand it, as humans we cannot understand heaven just as we dont understand angels.
Original post by Berrers
Thanks for the response, I must admit thought that I am not well versed in the Islamic faith so forgive me if I ask any seemingly ignorant questions.
You point about being in a state of Kufr has raised a question, are those who do not know of Gods Laws or his existence destined to not enter Jannah. Are those who do not know God in a state of Kufr?
You point about being in a state of Kufr has raised a question, are those who do not know of Gods Laws or his existence destined to not enter Jannah. Are those who do not know God in a state of Kufr?
I can see why this is a question that often comes up from people with a strong Christian background. If God and Sin cannot co-exist, and if belief in the crucifixion is necessary for sin to be deleted - what about those who have no heard of Christ, and those before Christ and babies who died young? What about "people" on other earths if there were other earths - would God have needed to have his son "murdered" in each and every case?
The foundation of the Islamic faith, which claims to be the one and only timeless and literally universal faith, is that God is One in all senses and that there there is no power or Law except from Him. Kufr is never from ignorance of this belief; that's rather simply called "ignorance". Kufr is active disbelief, rejection and rebellion. It is the "I don't give a damn" attitude towards truth. The upsetting of the scales in which you measure truth. And it is not a black and white issue - there are various levels of kufr and it's opposite iman (or "faith") and some actions could be categorized as being acts of kufr even without putting its actor into kufr.
Those who do not know God, would have nothing to hide or rebel against. Knowledge of God comes easily from knowledge of the self and creation - thats why almost every culture has an idea of a one and true God (not merely to explain natural phenomena, but to explain the sense of inner feelings human have). Kufr is usually the state of rebellion against God and His commandments, which by extension is rebellion against one's own Self.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by earthworm
Mark 12 has the best repost to this.
24Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d ? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
So as i understand it, as humans we cannot understand heaven just as we dont understand angels.
24Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’d ? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
So as i understand it, as humans we cannot understand heaven just as we dont understand angels.
So why spend your life devoted to a religion that will send you for an eternity to a place that you know nothing/very little about. To me it seems to me to be evidence for the idea that the bible is written by man for man, in that answers such as the one provided above are very cleverly written scapegoats. The use of the scapegoat above and other ones like "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth etc.." just seem to show a cop out which Christianity defaults to, to avoid further scrutinisation.
Original post by Sciatic
I can see why this is a question that often comes up from people with a strong Christian background. If God and Sin cannot co-exist, and if belief in the crucifixion is necessary for sin to be deleted - what about those who have no heard of Christ, and those before Christ and babies who died young? What about "people" on other earths if there were other earths - would God have needed to have his son "murdered" in each and every case?
The foundation of the Islamic faith, which claims to be the one and only timeless and literally universal faith, is that God is One in all senses and that there there is no power or Law except from Him. Kufr is never from ignorance of this belief; that's rather simply called "ignorance". Kufr is active disbelief, rejection and rebellion. It is the "I don't give a damn" attitude towards truth. The upsetting of the scales in which you measure truth. And it is not a black and white issue - there are various levels of kufr and it's opposite iman (or "faith"
and some actions could be categorized as being acts of kufr even without putting its actor into kufr.
Those who do not know God, would have nothing to hide or rebel against. Knowledge of God comes easily from knowledge of the self and creation - thats why almost every culture has an idea of a one and true God (not merely to explain natural phenomena, but to explain the sense of inner feelings human have). Kufr is usually the state of rebellion against God and His commandments, which by extension is rebellion against one's own Self.
The foundation of the Islamic faith, which claims to be the one and only timeless and literally universal faith, is that God is One in all senses and that there there is no power or Law except from Him. Kufr is never from ignorance of this belief; that's rather simply called "ignorance". Kufr is active disbelief, rejection and rebellion. It is the "I don't give a damn" attitude towards truth. The upsetting of the scales in which you measure truth. And it is not a black and white issue - there are various levels of kufr and it's opposite iman (or "faith"
and some actions could be categorized as being acts of kufr even without putting its actor into kufr.Those who do not know God, would have nothing to hide or rebel against. Knowledge of God comes easily from knowledge of the self and creation - thats why almost every culture has an idea of a one and true God (not merely to explain natural phenomena, but to explain the sense of inner feelings human have). Kufr is usually the state of rebellion against God and His commandments, which by extension is rebellion against one's own Self.
Quite an interesting statement you've made there! So in other words, regardless if you're a muslim, if you believe in Allah(god) you can still enter paradise? <-- if thats the case, @Berrers what do you think of that?
(edited 8 years ago)
people who never heard about islam will have test in afterlife. If passed paradise, if not hellfire is their home
Imam Ahmed Ben Hanbal narrated in his “Musnad” and Al-bayhaqi in his book “Al- I’tiqaad”, and classed as Saheeh by Al-Aswad Ben Saree’ that the prophet (PBUH) said:
“Four types of people will be tested on the day of judgement: a deaf man who cannot hear anything, a mad man, an old aged man and a man who died during fatrah (a period of time when no messenger was sent to people). The deaf man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I cannot hear anything!”. The mad man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while the boys throw animals’ excrement on me!”. The old aged man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I can understand nothing”. And the man who died during a fatrah will say: “Oh Allah, I witnessed no messenger from You”. Then Allah takes a promise from them to obey Him. Then He will command them to enter hell, and who enters it will find it peace and cool, and who disobeys will be dragged to hell” (Sahih Hadith)
Only Good Free Will Exist in islamic paradise. You can swimming,farming or fishing if you want that
Volume 3, Book 39, Number 538 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira (radiallaahu `anhu)
Once the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam) was narrating (a story), while a Bedouin was sitting with him. “One of the inhabitants of Paradise will ask Allah to allow him to cultivate the land. Allah will ask him, ‘Are you not living in the pleasures you like?’ He will say, ‘Yes, but I like to cultivate the land.’ ” The Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam) added, “When the man (will be permitted he) will sow the seeds and the plants will grow up and get ripe, ready for reaping and so on till it will be as huge as mountains within a wink. Allah will then say to him, ‘O son of Adam! Take here you are, gather (the yield); nothing satisfies you.’ ” On that, the bedouin said, “The man must be either from Quraish (i.e. an emigrant) or an Ansari, for they are farmers, whereas we are not farmers.” The Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam) smiled (at this).
Imam Ahmed Ben Hanbal narrated in his “Musnad” and Al-bayhaqi in his book “Al- I’tiqaad”, and classed as Saheeh by Al-Aswad Ben Saree’ that the prophet (PBUH) said:
“Four types of people will be tested on the day of judgement: a deaf man who cannot hear anything, a mad man, an old aged man and a man who died during fatrah (a period of time when no messenger was sent to people). The deaf man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I cannot hear anything!”. The mad man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while the boys throw animals’ excrement on me!”. The old aged man will say: “Oh Allah, Islam came while I can understand nothing”. And the man who died during a fatrah will say: “Oh Allah, I witnessed no messenger from You”. Then Allah takes a promise from them to obey Him. Then He will command them to enter hell, and who enters it will find it peace and cool, and who disobeys will be dragged to hell” (Sahih Hadith)
Only Good Free Will Exist in islamic paradise. You can swimming,farming or fishing if you want that
Volume 3, Book 39, Number 538 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira (radiallaahu `anhu)
Once the Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam) was narrating (a story), while a Bedouin was sitting with him. “One of the inhabitants of Paradise will ask Allah to allow him to cultivate the land. Allah will ask him, ‘Are you not living in the pleasures you like?’ He will say, ‘Yes, but I like to cultivate the land.’ ” The Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam) added, “When the man (will be permitted he) will sow the seeds and the plants will grow up and get ripe, ready for reaping and so on till it will be as huge as mountains within a wink. Allah will then say to him, ‘O son of Adam! Take here you are, gather (the yield); nothing satisfies you.’ ” On that, the bedouin said, “The man must be either from Quraish (i.e. an emigrant) or an Ansari, for they are farmers, whereas we are not farmers.” The Prophet (sallallaahu `alayhi wasallam) smiled (at this).
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