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Asiatic lion vs Bengal tiger Watch

  • View Poll Results: Who would win?
    Asiatic lion
    27.50%
    Bengal tiger
    72.50%

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    This will please thy ancient father and thy father's kith and kin, This will please the righteous people, Bharat knows no guile or sin! Speak thy mandate to thy husband, win thy son a happy fate, Doom him not to Rama's service or his unrelenting hate, Let not Rama in his rancour shed a younger brother's blood, As the lion slays the tiger in the deep and echoing wood!
    https://books.google.com/books?id=y-...0tiger&f=false


    Thapars theorys dont hold a candle in the light of the facts:

    (Copy files and paste into url)

    file:///C:/Users/Computer/Downloads/J-3687_final_pgs_105-107_1_%20(1).pdf

    file:///C:/Users/Computer/Downloads/LionCheetah_corrected_final_ms_1 _%20(1).pdf

    file:///C:/Users/Computer/Downloads/OBRIEN_FINAL_1_%20(1).pdf

    They just found more scientific archaeological lion bones excavated from south india sri lanka, how can you get more conclusive than bones pre-dating as farther back than the 5th century? One of the biggest dam historical monuments in south india is there and it just so happened to have been a lion:
    https://www.behance.net/gallery/1590...te-at-Sigiriya


    Also called the lion entrance:

    Whhhhaaaa? A statue so big with a lion on it for no reason at all? Why not a tiger, or a leopard? I thought they said lions never ranged south of india? Yet we have three conclusive factual evidences..
    .
    - Statues of lions there since the 5th century
    - Bones of lions there farther back
    - And a account witnessed by a hunter and his calvery in the 18th century in bangalore where a lion wounded a tiger in the neck twice?

    What more would you need to be conclusive? Lions pre-dominated india, and there isnt a single account of a wild tiger defeating a wild lion even 1 on 1, let alone 1 against 30 at a time.



    Looks like the Pro side of the voters or data that supports the lion

    @bluemadhatter,
    @JamesN88,
    @theuglyfish
    @Eternalflames,

    Pro:

    - In the wild of india asiatic lions have won 8 times,
    - In Captivity of india lions have won 5 times
    - 4 Historical artifacts that show a lion killing a tiger in india
    - Historical people who backed the indian lion Kailash sankhala, Sanstri, C. Merriam ect
    - Experts who backed the indian lion, Jeong sangjo, Damoo dhotre, Discover channel/animal planet team
    - Predatorial ninch of being gregarious... Hunts the biggest mega faunas
    - Advantages: Taller, stronger at striking, has a protecting mane, heavier on average, more fighting experience

    Supporting the tiger:

    Con:

    - Tigers won none in the wild, killed two lionesses in captivity of india, alleged accounts of oude/baroda.
    - Backed by Kesri singh, Varty, hunts small to medium size animals on average
    - Heavier at max, longer, more agile

    Voters who back the tiger

    @College_Dropout,
    @FaisalNaeem03,
    @fandom-queen,
    @I_Mir,
    @RezzBerry,
    @uhabib

    Yet to have brought forth an argument, Wikipedia (already used) Smithsonian ( already used) BBc, compare and difference ,com...all already used or in other words exploited to be false information, second hand and unreliable accounts. Still awaiting arguments or evidence from the tiger con side, that shows how and why a bengal tiger would beat an asiatic or indian lion.

    Whoa check this out, a lion cub was killed by 3 tigres, and 3 young tigers were killed by lions:http://www.bloodlions.org/shockwildl...breeding-farm/These dont look like no young tigers.The thing with the whole size comparison stuff is, I still havent yet to see even two thousand pound bearswith a neck width as wide as the lions mane:

    Look specifically at the human compared to these animals necks, the neck of the brown bear and polar bear are equal to less of that of a humans body, but the lions width of his maned neck area is that of two to three times that of a humans body...in all respects, bears might be the tallest, tigers the longest, but in upper body size, the lion is the biggest...without a dought.
    http://postimg.org/image/3v8c7aiqb/

    some interesting things:
    http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kw=%E6%96%9...=utf-8&pn=1600
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    Outside Junagarh, slaughter of animals is also prohibited by emperor Ashoka. Lions were welcomed in their territory to scare off boars, deers, and other animals that pester their crops.
    http://www.mb.com.ph/indian-villager...l0KWtuS5Z69.99

    Kotah india: Lion and tiger in the same jungle:



    Both lion and tiger were found in kotahs jungles:




    This painting, dated circa 1820, is from the Kingdom of Kotah in south-east Rajasthan
    This Kotah miniature painting shows Rajput princesses shooting at two lions. Also seen are a pair of black buck, a grey langur monkey, numerous birds and fishes in the waterhole, and wild boar in the bottom left. Out of all these animals only the lion is no longer found in the wildernes around Kotah.




    Tigers being shot in Kotah circa 1800
    http://eyeburfi2.tumblr.com/post/215...o-thePaintings

    still preserved at a museum in Kotah show lion and tiger hunting from a machan. Mr. Blanford ...
    https://books.google.com/books?id=VU...0tiger&f=false

    There is before me a photograph of an Indian lion in captivity, adorned with as fine a mane as any African beast,
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=13....0.0XVF8uol-eU

    Many different rulers shot lions in kotah:
    https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#t...ions.+Kotah%22

    There are reports of large lion populations in Central India in the 1850s and of ten lions being shotin Kotah, Rajasthan, in1866. Then ...
    https://books.google.com/books?id=xu...0tiger&f=false

    The very fact that H.H. the Maharao of Kotah, and the Maharajas of Panna and Baria have shot these lions in comparatively
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...mparatively%22

    hunting sports much more interest in the lion than in the tiger, which last was always more especially the favourite carnivore of the Hindus
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Lq...0tiger&f=false

    The Maharao of Kotah in Rajasthan awarded anyone who killed a lion twenty-five rupees, more than twice what he gave for the head of a tiger. In the North West Provinces, the wolf got its killer a bounty larger than that paid for a panther.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=kZ...0tiger&f=false

    Ohhhhh, so now we see that lions disappeared quicker than tigers, because the main hunts had paid people twice the amount of lions than tigers.

    another lion fighting tiger artifact in india is in a museum there:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Zh...ing%22&f=false

    it happens to be in kolkota
    http://indianmuseumkolkata.org/

    Kailasa temple as it states in the link:

    Four lions = Four noble truths


    http://www.messagetoeagle.com/gigant...ster-builders/


    a giant lion that attacked the tigers and put them to flight."
    http://www.printsofjapan.com/Toyokun...ki_on_Lion.htm


    attacked the tigers and made them turn tail.
    http://writeantiques.com/antique-dog...ou-to-collect/

    Japanese artifact


    Hmmm sounds quite similar to this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcYXLR_QyGE







    :


    It took me a year and a half to get a permit to explore the entire Gir Forest—and no time at all to see why these lions became symbols of royalty and greatness. A tiger will slink through the forest unseen, but a lion stands its ground, curious and unafraid—lionhearted.
    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0106/feature3/
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zmUE8e3wK0

    The super lions marooned on an island:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-island.html

    1 ~THE OKAVANGO






    THE HUNTED





    THE HUNTERS









    THE TSARO PRIDE






    THE HUNT






    PRIDE MALE ASSISTING

    The Jouberts wrote the lionesses were expert hunters.



    And the males too











    THE RISKS




    TOUGH LIFE
















    Another reason was competition from hyenas. This photograph was taken on the day of the hyenas. Some cubs might have perished as a result of starvation or attacks.






    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTTVGpDwG_I

    So whats this crap that lions couldnt contend in tiger country via swampy, marshland, river jungle areas? The lion can dominate on any terrain, could the tiger handle hyena? No, the tiger cant even handle a small pack of wild dogs:
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...0kills%20tiger

    How big is the biggest crocodile a tiger has killed? The narrirator and link says Machli the tigress killed a 14 foot long crocs
    :

    So I'm guessing then, that this must be one of the fabled 18 foot long tigers...since the tigers body alone is already the full length of the crocodile, let alone adding in the length of the tigers tail. Looks like the croc the tigress killed was only about 8 feet long, but a croc that size is still impressive.Doesnt look all that big compared to the crocs lions face, heres a croc with only 1/3rd of its body already just as long as a lioness:

    Even the crocs jaw/muzzled or snout area is almost the length of the lionesses body.



    Salmon (1932) described such an occurrence — the first recorded from Uganda — at Butiaba, where in August 1931 a lion, having killed a large crocodile measuring 11 feet, 7 inches...Pitman (1942) also reports that one afternoon visitors to the Murchison Falls saw alion stalk and kill a crocodile on the opposite bank : the creature was so hungry that it continued to feed even when the launch crossed the river to afford a...According to Thomas & Scott (1949) lions have been known to kill and devour crocodiles on the Lake Albert flats....Stevenson-Hamilton (1954) heard one reliable instance of a crocodile being killed by lions in such an encounter...also states that crocodile killing by lions has been recordedas quite a normal occurrence on the western shore of Lake rudolf...
    https://www.google.com/search?q=in+A....0.R5IHqg3Pv5I

    lions kill croc https://safariguideafrica.wordpress.com/

    lions kill croc http://bush-kat.blogspot.com/2010/06...ness-with.html

    lion kills croc http://www.sunsafaris.com/blog/2014/11/kruger-lion/


    Crocodile Lion battle

    PublishedbyWildcasteron August 14, 2006 in Uncategorized. Tags:africa, blogumentary, conservation, crocodile, crocodile-hunter, endangered-species, malilangwe

    A few weeks ago these game scouts came across this huge 14ft crocodile lying dead on the sand in the Chiredzi River water course. Of course they were very hesitant to approach this huge beast but after some time they realised it was dead.


    On closer investigation they found the croc had what looked like bite wounds on its belly and around the neck. Curious as they were they took to reading the scene like we would read a book. Checking out all the signs they could find in tracks in the sand, scrape marks on the tree, flattened grass and reeds they were able to piece together the puzzle.A leopard had killed an impala and dragged it up a tree to get it out the way of hyaenas and lions. Well that’s the idea.The crocodile had either heard the commotion or had smelt the kill and leaving the water tracked down the kill only to find it in a tree. At the same time a pride of lions had arrived on the scene. But now they were doubly puzzled. The kill they were after was in the tree AND there was an enormous crocodile at the base of the tree laying claim to the kill too. All the while the leopard was probably in the tree not daring to leave its place of safety.


    The lions wouldn’t have cared less for the leopard but the 14 ft monster was something to think about. From the tracks in the sand the scouts were able to make out that there was quite a skirmish between the lions and the crocodile. But outnumbered the crocodile got away although it was injured and died about a 100m from the tree where the kill was.


    The lions in the meantime had managed to scale the tree and steal the leopards kill. At this stage the leopard had probably climbed into the very highest branches where being lighter it would be safe from lions blundering around the tree.This would have been quite an event to witness indeed. And just finding the croc there dead on the sand wouldn’t have told the story. But the great tracking skills of the Malilangwe game scouts was able to bring to us this incredible event.Stay tuned for more exciting events as we venture back to the wild dogs tomorrow.
    http://www.wildcast.net/2006/08/14/c...e-lion-battle/



    one case on record where a family of lions managed to kill a crocodile
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22where+ a+family+of+lions+managed+to+kil l+a+crocodile%22 Giant reptiles

    Lions will kill and eat a crocodile and will also eat carrion, especially if it is
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...ly+if+it+is%22

    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...dile+near+a%22

    In some localities hungry lions not infrequently kill, and eat crocodiles, and it is interesting to record that the lion's method of attack is in the first instance to smash the skull.
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...+the+skull.%22

    Lions have been known to kill and eat crocodiles and to crack open tortoise shells. A charging lion can topple over the biggest giraffe. A group of lionscan bring down a full-grown hippopotamus.
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...oise+shells%22

    These were evidently the work of a lion, and the reptile was all but dead." Downey's Africa. * "Lion have also been known to kill and eat crocodiles." Kenya Game 1954.
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...ll+but+dead%22


    There are several instances of lions' killing adult crocodiles; one took place on an African game reserve in full view of a launch loaded with sightseers. In another, a crocodile attempted to steal a lion's kill and was itself slain by the big cats
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22There+ are+several+instances+of+lions%2 7+killing+adult+crocodiles%3B+on e+took+place%22

    The Lions of Tsavo: Exploring the Legacy of Africa's

    In 1977 in northern Kenya, Smithsonian paleobiologist Kay Behrensmeyer witnessed a lion with a newly killed crocodile seven feet long

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kay+Behrensmeyer+wit nessed+a+lion+with+a%22&tbm=bks& tbo=1

    I almost walked into two lions next to a carcass of a large crocodile that they had killed the previous night
    https://books.google.com/books?id=gyzIrGBrcaMC&pg=PA105&d q=%22large+crocodile%22+lion+%22 killed%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6A EwAmoVChMI5aGrn9eVxgIVBmytCh2q6A I8#v=onepage&q=%22large%20crocod ile%22%20lion%20%22killed%22&f=f alse

    Discoveries of a Crocodile Man"

    There are documented cases of large crocodiles being killed by lions"https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22There+ are+documented+cases+of+large+cr ocodiles+being+killed+by+lions%2 2

    Lion kills croc
    https://books.google.com/books?id=dF...odiles&f=false

    I have heard one reliable instance of a crocodile having been killed in such an encounter with lions
    http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbo..._1000120477/93

    From Weil's Files by Robert I. Weil Kenya Jottings We just returned from a two-week safari through Kenya where we observed lions eating crocodiles,
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...codiles%2C%22+

    Evidence of Asiatic lions have killed crocs
    https://books.google.com/books?id=J0...ed=0CBQQ6AEwBw


    Even a fully satiated lion will not readily relinquish its feast an instead drags it inch by inch up the sand, followed by an equally determined crocodile. In the intense heat and with an uncomfortably distended belly, the lion at first merely swats the crocodile’s snout or snaps at a scaly hind leg. The reptile retaliates, provoking hisses and growls, meaner swats and moreferocious snaps. The confrontation quickly escalates into an awe-inspiring spectacle. In the midst ofthe battle it’s difficult to gauge which of Africa’s two top predators will win, but in the end usually thelion gains the upper hand. Not always, though – one Valley resident reported seeing a single lionessswim out to a dead hippo on a sandbank midstream and climb on top of the carcass. She put up aspirited fight to keep her booty from surrounding crocodiles but they eventually chased her back to shore.
    ~ Battleground Luangwa - Global Sojourns

    lion kills croc on the rufuji river
    https://www.google.com/search?q=I+fo....0.KGLr0uXRuNU

    Lion kills large croc at Kirawira http://www.theserenaexperience.com/w...825-WA0001.jpghttp://www.theserenaexperience.com/w...826-WA0000.jpg

    http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_5194911_1.html

    Fresh killed corcodile:
    http://safaritalk.net/topic/6299-sho...ictures/page-2

    Lions kill two crocs file:///C:/Users/Computer/Downloads/753-3357-1-PB.pdf

    Lioness dominates croc:

    The crocodile realising he was fighting a losing battle, eventually gave up on his quest. James concludes, “ I think why this scene unfolded, is because the kill was literally a couple of meters from the bank, and the crocodile laying in the water had probably watched the whole scene take place. Being hungry he decided to try his luck with the cats, but to no avail
    http://www.latestsightings.com/blog/...rey_from_Lions

    Musango’s surroundings are saturated with wildlife and over 400 species of birds. Wendy Edwards told of a recent exhilarating wild sighting near camp. She said, “This croc thought it would try and steal the impala that the lions had killed near camp early one morning. After a lot of noise and a fight, the lions killed the croc and ate it too.” Musango truly is set in one of Zimbabwe’s most untouched spaces where the wilderness rules

    http://www.classicsafaricamps.com/blog/2012/10/an-island-hideaway-safari-at-musango-lake-kariba/

    it became evident that lions had killed both warthog and crocodile:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=dFS_5pG9LQMC&pg=PA336&d q=%22long%22+crocodile+lion+%22d ead%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQt 52ywe_JAhWJuB4KHYIPC9kQ6AEIIjAB# v=onepage&q=%22long%22%20crocodi le%20lion%20%22dead%22&f=false

    in fact, two young lions from the same group are now regularly dining on crocodiles that they've killed, says the luxury resort. In the last two weeks the brothers have "dispatched" three large crocodiles measuring up to four metres.
    http://www.news24.com/Africa/Zimbabw...ariba-20160310

    But the lion also at times kills crocodiles, catching them while they are lying on the shore.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=lf...codile&f=false

    We sat outside by the fire each evening (they had one each night), looking up at the stars, hearing the animals calling out to one another, in the middle of the Serengeti, and felt that we had found paradise.

    Not a care in the world, in a safe, wonderful place that made Jurassic Park seem like South Park.

    In the morning and afternoon, we would go out for game drives. Go a tenth of a mile in any direction and there are lions....and wildebeests....zebras....leopard s....giraffes....rhinos...cape buffalo...., essentially in their back (and front!!) yard.

    One morning we went outside the camp area, and there was a lion eating a crocodile!
    https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUser...nal_Park.html#
    https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUser...onal_Park.html

    As the sun rose over the plains of the Serengetti game park, some of the animals would wake up to a wonderful sunny morning, but sadly enough some would not. And among these the crocodile. It had been taken out by a team of 4 supposedly daring Pride known to take on the toughest in the Jungle. This was a first seen by the rangers. A special sight for the www.lakevictoriaexpedition.com team
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wvVhm0-_nU

    There was one male lion who sat off on its own. It had a large scar on the left side of its face. The guide, Fannuel, whispered to us about how the lion had gotten the scar. The lion he referred to as “Scarface”. This lion had developed a reputation for killing crocodiles; crocodiles measuring over 12 feet in length. It is assumed he had gotten the scar during a battle with one of these large, prehistoric reptiles; a battle witnessed by another guide. Scarface and an enormous crocodile, both reared up on hind legs, and became entangled in a violent struggle. Scarface muscled the crocodile over and delivered a crushing and fatal bite around its throat. Two of Africa’s largest and most powerful gladiators entwined in a battle to the death.
    http://firstlightsafaris.com/2015/11...thieving-lion/
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    The lion that killed three tigers was seen by Capt Frank phillps:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zmUE8e3wK0

    Not only was a lone subadult lion killed two bull giraffes in two weeks time, but other subadult lone male lions killed upto 37 adult giraffes:

    http://lionguardians.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Dolrenry-Stephanie-PhD-2013.pdf

    The size comparison is ridiculous:


    What feats do tigers have that even comes close to this? An adult giraffe can be 2,000 - 4,000 lbs and upto 18 feet tall.
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    Did you find all this information yourself?
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    It took a lot of scrolling to get through the thread. This is the best thread ever, well written and balanced opinion.

    I vote Tiger.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Did you find all this information yourself?
    No, I had help from a few people who was interested in the subject. Just thought I share it here since hardly anywhere can you get genuine info away from wiki like stuff, which is semi-controlled. If any of these facts were shifted towards wiki that user would have a heart attack, you can see in its editorials, the same two mods erase hundreds of people stuff who post things in favor of the lion. But, if thats how it is, then no biges...

    Since wiki isnt everything. lol

    But much like all the polls all around the web, I think they are influenced by wiki like sites or controlled, bias or cherry picked stuff , even here too, a member on the other page said he didnt even read it before voting and now switched sides. I dont really care for the votes, people have the right to chose whom ever, and these animals are super identical so it really is trivial. But I see that the voting has the members names, so I would atleast like to hear their arguments too, none so far has brought anything...and some facts would be nice for the tiger side, an not this poor assessment of the tiger is bigger, stronger, faster repeated over and over again with no credence to it, some real facts would be cool.

    I think the larger tigers like the bengal, sibreian and caspian (the hycranian tiger is my favorite tiger) were formidable foes, and that the south african and barbary lion hold their own superiority over tigers, but like the title says, this hypothetical is about the asiatic lion, or indian lion against the bengal, which in general most say the asiatic lion is far cry away from the african lion, so it is still debatable... I think the bengal has a good shot at beating a indian lion, but I just dont see all that much records proving it. Its kinda vice versa at the moment, only the asiatic lion is being shown winning in indias historical records. But I am open to being proven wrong...if there are any facts brought forth.

    For instance, many articles and books cover the notion and state tigers always won, they then cite a place, but leave out the details, many cited this very account, and said the King of beast is truley the tiger, but if you read the original source...it states it was a young lion:

    Most dont include the age:


    But if you look through the same account, some do:


    This is repeated on almost every tiger winning source, first numerous later articles dub the tiger the king, states the tiger always won in every instance, cites it, but then the originals dont say or show anything grand of a sort, a young lion is nothing compared to a fully maned one. So far almost every account Ive seen of a tiger winning was against a young lion or lioness via by its original source, nothing on wiki like sites are from their original or root source, just others covering it and twisting it.

    Much like the wiki glasgow one, the person says a tiger would win 100/100 yet when we look at the account again, the lion involved was maneless via either young or female:


    No person who has seen both prime specimens next to each other and fought several times to give either or a 100/100...hence most derive out of an agenda or bias. The problem with wiki like sites is, atleast let the people know two sides of the coin, not just one.
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    tldr
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    What the indian lion looked like when they were more wide spread, had natural selection, and as healthy as their barbary ancestorshttp://www.artnindia.com/product/ind...al-nature-art/

    Another Indian sportsman tells us, that the lion, though not so swift as the tiger, is generally stronger and more courageous.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=mQ...0india&f=false

    The Parbati flows due north for 80 miles, and falls into the Chambal in the extreme north-eastern corner of the territory. It forms the eastern boundary of the State for a considerable portion of its length, separating it from Tonk on the south and from Gwalior on the north. The rivers contain trout and mahsir, besides other fish; crocodiles are numerous, and those in the Chambal are of large size. There are no natural lakes, but numerous small artificial tanks, for irrigation purposes, have been made by throwing masonry embankments across water-courses.

    The wild animals of the State include the 'golden ' lion, the tiger, panther, four species of leopards, two of cheetahs (hunting leopard), hyaena, wolf, bear, jackal, wild dog, etc.; the bison, the sdmbhar, the nflgau, the chital (spotted deer), and antelope. Kotah is celebrated for its parrots; birds of every variety abound.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=14...0tiger&f=false

    Lions And Tigers Killed By The Officers Of The 2nd CenTral India Horse—A party out with Col. Gibbard from the 9th April to the 1st of June bagged twenty-four tigers, three panthers, and one bear. AVe arc given to understand that the officers of the 2nd regiment of Central India Horse for the past two years have bagged from thirty to forty tigers ; last year they killed thirty six, and during the time the regiment has been stationed at Augur and Goona they have shot from 300 to 350 lions
    https://books.google.com/books?id=DG...0india&f=false

    GAYA

    The Chinese pilgrim Fa Hian tells us that in his time (A.D. 4.00) the hills were thickly wooded and were full of lions, tigers, and wolves, so that travellers had to be cautious.
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...e+cautious.%22

    Like an army with an infantry fully armed, Galloping horses, huge elephants and chariots, Or lordly lions killing tigers,
    https://www.google.com/search?sclien....0.wnPqhFKZXXM

    SITAPUR

    On Monday, the 25th, we crossed over the River Mohan into Naipfllese territory, having spent the Sabbath at the villag ._of Lfilttpore, where, as usual, we preached Jesus to crowds of interested people.Passing through forests, jungles, and tall tiger-grass, and not far from the place where elephants, lions and tigers abound, on the 26th we reached Gola Mundy, an important trading post. 80 miles northeast of Sitapur
    https://books.google.com/books?id=2b...0tiger&f=false

    BASTI

    (panther), the Cheeta and the Babbra — 'which is white, has long hair about the head' — a description indicating the existence of lions.
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%28panthe r%29%2C+the+Cheeta+and+the+Babbr a+%E2%80%94+%27which+is+white%2C +has+long+hair+about+the+head%27 +%E2%80%94+a+description+indicat ing+the+existence+of+lions.#hl=e n&tbm=bks&q=+basti+%22Babbra+%E2 %80%94+%27which+is+white%2C+has+ long+hair+about+the+head%27+%E2% 80%94+a+description+indicating+t he+existence+of+lions.%2

    SHARANPURAs

    late as the beginning of the 19th century Hamilton referred to lions existing in vast numbers in the Saharanpur districts, ...https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...r+districts%22

    My question to Valmik thapar would be...what...are...you...talking about...Anyways, heres an interesting follow up this account:


    Heres the follow up:


    Not so swift.


    Hear of lions are horrible. This king of the jungle and its other-family member such as cheetahs, leopards, lions, tigers and the dreaded giant animal. Class Mammalia by biologists are grouped under the cat family. Singh Panthro Leo, the Lion Tiger Panthro, Panthro Tigress Tiger, leopard panthera Pardjs called. All Panther descent are descended. Lions are found only in primitive dimension in India. Indian culture and ancient literature is extensive imagery of the lion or tiger. Lion strong, mighty, powerful, has been considered an energetic animal. According to a verse in Sanskrit undeclared lion is the king of the jungle.

    Apart from elephant nobody has ever challenged the supremacy of the Lion. Lion Goddess Durga is the vehicle of Lord Shiva always wear Bagnbr.An adult lion can weigh 200 to 250 kg. Cheetah is famous for his moves and speed. Instead of seeing the power of the lion at night is day. As night sets out their prey Lion family. All Lions are predatory by nature. The victim grabbed onto opportunity. Far enough can chase prey. Thkakr kill prey. Singh all family members amazing courage, agility, strength occurs.
    https://translate.google.com/transla...5/&prev=search

    SARANDA

    The Saranda, Kolhan and the Porhat divisions of forests formed the major forests of the district. These forests were full of wild and furious animals. Lions, tigers and panthers were found in the forests of this district. At times they ...https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbm=bk...es+they+...%22





    North Indian art


    1590 babbar describes lions hunting guar

    If lions were abundant in the 4th century - 17th century, I'm pretty sure they had their share of indian rhino, asiatic elephants, guar and crocodiles...in other words, what ever the tiger hunted, the indian lion hunted two folds. So the hunting comparison of the two is quite mute.

    It still stands out as one of the most interesting accounts
    :It seems that mostly the tiger supporters say the biggest tigers will beat lions, but then when these type are analyzed, they then say a thousand pound tiger would be obese, so what would be the sweet spot of a bigger tiger, what weight margin is suitable for the tiger to win?

    The lion is a bit bigger because of his mane," says Pat, "but the tiger is almost the same size...the male lion will fight anything, anytime, any where without provocation.~Milwaukee Sentinel - Feb 17, 1958http://www.google.com/search?q=Pat+Anthony,+the+animal +trainer,+has+this+to+say+about+ his+performing+animals:+A+lion+w ill+fight+anything,+anytime,+any +where+without+provocation.&hl=e n&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&ei=LNF2UqXzEI b8igKan4CwDg&sa=N**** clemens: Also did his best to protect his tigers from his lion
    s:
    Five of the lions and the tigers belonged in my regularact. I obtained the other four lions' last Thursday from the Evansville, Ind. Zoo to train into the act for the annaul Christmas show for crippled shildren in Chicago. NATURAL ENEMIES I introduced the new lions, all two-year-olds, to the old lions as usual. The tigers and lions are natural enemies. Then one of my old lions, Tyrone, got jealous of the new lions. He started to fight with a tiger sitting on a seat above him. MAKE FOR CHUTE The new lions got scared and tried to run for the chute, but the man on the chute was late in opening the door. They couldn't get away from the trouble. There I was in the middle, with the new lions on one side and the old lions and two tigers on the other.The new lions couldn't get out. Then all hell broke loose. DROPS GUN I began trying to quiet them, to save what I could. I had a small buggy whip and a blank pistol but I dropped the gun. We get scared the same as everybody else would. The fight was a roaring, snarling blitzkrieg. The animals moved so fast my eyes couldn't follow them. I tried to save the tigers, which don't breed here, and are worth $1,000 each.(PDF Content storyBottom of the page)http://diglib4.princeton.edu/histor...01.2.82&e=-------en-20--1--txt-IN-police----#


    The Buddha has often been described in leonine terms since the lion is the most powerful and noblest of the beasts
    https://www.google.com/webhp?source...the+most+powerful +and+noblest+of+the+beasts."

    It was Aesop who first crowned the lion king of the beasts...Within the span of historic record, the lion inhabited most of Africa, India, and the Middle East, as well as Greece. ... century B.C. they had disappeared from Greece, and during the past two millennia they have vanished from the Middle East, North Africa, and the ...

    Big Cats - Page 41Barbara Radcliffe Rogers

    -The Indian lion has long been celebrated as the Lord of Beasts, and it became a symbol for human power and sovereignty

    Lions: King of Beasts - Page 11

    As known to us, the lion is one of the strongest animals on earth and the eagle in the sky, both represent power and authority

    Purātattva - Issue 36 - Page 265

    Several other feline species infest the Indian jungle, but the lion, largest of all and in the popular fancy regarded as even more powerful than the tiger, has almost ceased to exist on the mainland since the beginning of the present century.
    https://www.google.com/webhp?source...garded+as+even+mo re+powerful+than+the+tiger,"
    and People in the Malay World, ...Most observers agree that the tiger usually attacks from behind...Though ferocious, they are cowardly
    https://books.google.com/books?id=pIysL_AsCM0C&pg=PA26&dq =%22attacks+from+behind%22+tiger &hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAGoVChM IiZvkzoeTxgIVhDGsCh22GwB8#v=onep age&q=%22attacks%20from%20behind %22%20tiger&f=false

    Forest of Tigers: People, Politics and Environment in theThe masks were given on the assumption that, as the tiger normally attacks from behind,
    https://books.google.com/books?id=XIW3AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA14&dq =%22attacks+from+behind%22+tiger &hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAWoVChM IvPfD2IuTxgIVSXetCh357wB1#v=onep age&q=%22attacks%20from%20behind %22%20tiger&f=false

    We were the less apprehensive of any personal danger, knowing that the tiger isa very cowardly animal, and seldom makes an open attack
    https://books.google.com/books?id=IstAAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA43&dq =tiger+%22cowardly+animal%22&hl= en&sa=X&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAGoVChMI_tD z3o2TxgIVQS6sCh24wgB3#v=onepage& q=tiger%20%22cowardly%20animal%2 2&f=false

    The New Monthly MagazineIf he becomes restless, as he is apt to do when not gorged with food, a shout isgenerally sufficient to prevent his breaking cover ; for, with all his ferocity, the tigeris a cowardly animal,Nature Contained: Environmental Histories of SingaporeThe natives say that the tiger almost always attacks from behind,
    https://books.google.com/books?id=idt1BgAAQBAJ&pg=PA53&dq =%22attacks+from+behind%22+tiger &hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAmoVChM IvPfD2IuTxgIVSXetCh357wB1#v=onep age&q=%22attacks%20from%20behind %22%20tiger&f=false

    TO THE MOUNTAIN TOPS: A Sojourn Among The Lahu of Asia

    No one will trail a wounded tiger, for unlike other animals, it usually allows thetrailing party to pass, then attacks from behind,It seems the tiger is a sneaky beast who waits until its victim turns his back andthen attacks from behind
    https://books.google.com/books?id=XuwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA46&dq =%22attacks+from+behind%22+tiger &hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCGoVChM IvPfD2IuTxgIVSXetCh357wB1#v=onep age&q=%22attacks%20from%20behind %22%20tiger&f=false

    The tiger, incapable of tolerating a stare, always attacks from behindhttps://books.google.com/books?id=_OfbTrxhRBYC&pg=PA77&dq =%22attacks+from+behind%22+tiger &hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBgQ6AEwATgKahU KEwi_8KvsjJPGAhVGN6wKHfMBAH0#v=o nepage&q=%22attacks%20from%20beh ind%22%20tiger&f=false

    The World Heritage Sites of UNESCO.: Nature sanctuar

    This is the only 'defense' they have against the ferocious Bengal tiger, which, it issaid, only attacks from behind

    Around the World with General Grant: A Narrative of the

    The tiger, who is really a cowardly animal, retreats before thenoiseThey are loners. In fact, after mating, a male tiger will abandon its mate and actually kill its male offspring later on if encountered in its territory
    https://books.google.com/books?id=lVC3Zn7pc2oC&pg=PA228&d q=%22male+tigers+abandons&hl=en& sa=X&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAWoVChMIq5rr45 GTxgIVCRSsCh1yKgB6#v=onepage&q=% 22male%20tigers%20abandons&f=fal se

    "The question whether or not a lion is the superior of a tiger in battle was recently settled during the course of a circus performance at Turin. The scene occurred while tamer Kose was putting Four lions and four tigers through their daily dozen in the middle ring high-spirited Bengal tiger suddenly attacked the lion and the gang having sounded tamer Kose became referee pluckily standing his ground while he attempted to seperate the struggling beasts...Round 1 went to the tiger but the second, tan than gave his assailant blow had Signor Carnera been present would have made him look sick. With one stroke the lion had almost torn off one of the Bengal's hind legs meantime the other tigers and lions who were attentive ringsiders the bout began to show...making the tamer-referees position all the more critical Firemen were summoned with earnest pleas to bring along the hose and finally the combatants were subdued by means of violent jets of water Circus vets took care of the wounded tiger and the crowd lustily cheered, the courageous tamer Klose told the local police that he was not going to part with the lion whose Intellirence was well any element of personal risk he him self might be taking.
    "http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/d...CIRCUS%20FIGHT



    lions usually finished off tigers. But not even the ferocious charge of the rhinoceros could penetrate the thick hide of the elephant. The afternoon brought more variety~U.S. News & World Report, Volume 130
    http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks...lephant.&btnG=

    (Annual Editions: Western Civilization, Volume 1, 13/e, Volume 1
    )

    Western Civilization

    (Facts and Details)
    Decapitating ostriches with crescent-headed arrows was a favorite trick at gladiator battles. The crowds cheered and roared with laughter as the ostrich continued to run around after its head was cut off. Bears usually defeated bulls. Packs of hounds easily dispatched deers. [Lions usually defeated tigers.] Not even a rhino could penetrate the hide of an elephant.
    ANCIENT ROMAN SPORT AND GLADIATOR CONTESTS | Facts and Details


    (Edward Beecher)

    Occupation :TheologianTheology (from Greek ɶÉ?fiV meaning "God" ,logy, meaning "study of" is the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and its influences and of the nature of religious truths, or the learned profession acquired by completing specialized training in religious studies, usually at a university or school of divinity or seminary.[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theologyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_BeecherAnd slew before their wond'ring sight, A wild beast conquered in the fight. A tiger who confronting stood And from this lion sought for blood ; But in this sanguinary strife The tiger sacrificed his life. While with flesh torn from slaughtered prey, ...http://books.google.com/books?id=Vwz...ed=0CCkQ6AEwAQ

    Artifact from rome:

    (Cicero)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero

    Cicero mentions a single lion that won 200 Bestariis (This is a Besta
    rii)
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Un9...ed=0CDIQ6AEwAg


    "I have seen no fiercer beast than yon lion, even in the amphitheatre of Rome,
    "http://books.google.com/books?id=DOw...ed=0CCMQ6AEwBA

    Athenian heroes fought with Spartan there,For ocean's empire, and both reap'd despair So, while two tigers struggle for a prey,The mightier lion bears the spoil away.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=zP0...ed=0CB0Q6AEwBQ
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    Two lionesses kill adult elephant
    https://lionprides.wordpress.com/200...-safari-lodge/

    The lion is now more rare in India that the same tiger. We once met a lot of lions in the wilds of Pewal, but now the race of the king of beasts is almost extinct in these parts; as to ensure the destruction of these formidable animals, the government granted a bonus for each head qu'abattraient Indians.According to the saying of the most intrepid hunters, no hunting is not comparable to that of the lion, and nothing can provide more noble hobby.The lion attack his enemy with more frankness and fearlessness as the tiger, probably because of its natural and noble pride, or because the places where it occurs are less favorable to retirement than the rivers and lakes frequented ic tiger.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=LlkWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA136&d q=le+lion+de+l%27Inde+tigre&hl=e n&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDtoCkgv7LAhVB WmMKHW4kBmMQ6AEIQTAG#v=onepage&q =le%20lion%20de%20l'Inde%20tigre &f=false

    Even at first glance, it is easy to anticipate the superiority of the strength of a lion. He has, as they say in horse language, the forehand more widely developed as tiger, bulkier front limbs, head and neck much stronger. Los lion habits also show an undoubted superiority. The lion does not flee before the enemy; it is human and charitable, when hunger will not close behind.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=oM0aAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA226&dq=le+lion+de+l%27Inde+tig re&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ6fO0g _7LAhUU1GMKHYUIAa84FBDoAQg-MAU#v=onepage&q=le%20lion%20de%2 0l'Inde%20tigre&f=false

    The lion is the king of beasts. He is the bravest and most magnanimous, and even attack the elephant and rhinoceros, which are bigger than him. He's proud gait, terrible voice and confident look. His body seems to be the model of strength and agility. The largest were four to five feet high (470) eight to nine feet in length from the snout to the origin of the tail. The lion's head is covered with long, thick hair; his neck is adorned with a mane. He lives in hot countries of Asia and Africa.The shape of the tiger looks like the cat. Its proportions are PLU3 slender and more elegant than the lion, and is better built for speed and agility.His strength is only slightly less than that of the lion. They say it is not uncommon to see him attack the lion, and, thanks to its superior agility, he often benefit. But, pride, courage, strength, lion seal the nobility, mercy, magnanimity; while (827) tiger is fierce crass, cruel without need.The body of the tiger is yellow, elegantly striped black. Nothing is more beautiful than the strength and freedom of movement, and also do nothing better indicates the strength and agility make the IM terror of the country he lives in.https://books.google.com/books?id=wO8IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA43&dq =le+lion+de+l%27Inde+tigre++cou& hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMhI2ehf7L AhVBFGMKHby4CowQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepa ge&q=le%20lion%20de%20l'Inde%20t igre%20%20cou&f=false


    By far the greatest lion and tiger trainer of all time:It was reported that his lions killed tigers and vice versa on various occasions:

    1928 Lion named Prince killed a tigress trudy saving beattys life
    1929 Lion named Nero Killed a tiger named Pasha saving his life
    1930 A gang fight erupted in the result of 3 tigers killed by lions
    1931 A Lion named duke and a lioness killed a tigress Snip and a tiger
    1932 A lion named sammy killed a lioness
    1933 A lion named Sultan killed a tiger name Tommy
    1933 A lion named Caesar killed a tiger named Bobby
    1933 A fight staged for the film big cage, a lion killed a tiger
    1933 Two more tigers were killed in gang fights
    1934 Accidental fights in performances were used for the lost jungle, a tigress nelly was killed by a lion
    1934 The same lion Caesar killed two tigers and was taken out of the act
    1935 Lion named detroit kills 3 tigresses, Alice, empress and slilka
    1936 Beatty mentions in his long career he has 25 tigers killed by lions accidentally
    1936 A lion named Boss tweeds fought and killed 3 bengal tigers at once
    1936 Clyde mentions a lion killed a tiger named Poona
    1937 Clydes wife Harriet witnesses a lion kill a tiger in his act.
    1938 A lion named Memphis kills a tigress named Sehka
    1947 Two lions Tarzan and Henry kills a tiger named Toona
    1951 Another lion named prince, killed 3 tigresses and two tigers, Rosie, slieka 2, and sheba
    1951 Clyde states 50 tigers were killed by lions in his 40 year career so far
    1953 Two lions kill a bengal tiger in beattys act
    1954 A lion named France killed two tigers
    1957 His third lion named Caesar kills 2 tigers


    At the end of Beattys career, Clyde had lost a total of 3 lions killed by tigers, and 56 tigers killed by lions. This information can be found on Clyde beattys three published books titled: The big cage...Jungle Performers...Facing the big cats...along with various news archives.And beatty not once in his career took it out on his animals like other trainers of hagenbecks, or Alfred court or many others who beat their animals, beatty in all his films even don'd his own name and always played the role of himself, a true class act:
    https://youtu.be/ugeeDlTXiGE?t=141

    Beatty even spoke highly of his tigers, giving credit to their speed, tenacity, fury and power, had tons of good fighting tigers straight from the wild, Rajah, Rogue, Gengis, Rex, Sabre and Chester some of his best fighting tigers who stood their ground against even group of lions attacking, who beatty if we go by some of the articles even favored the tiger at first of his first 5 years of training them, he accounted in their speed, standing bi-pedal and the more active fighter would be too much for the lion, (but he has never seen a 1 on 1 fair fight until 1933) but as the years went along, he found out that this is only the very first instances of the fight, the tiger can look good for his money...but then wears himself out quickly... the lion paces himself and is more designed of a mauler more so a killer, with the added protection of the mane he sticks it out through the entire fight, once aroused into fury will not quit until one of them is dead as his sole purpose in the wild is to protect his cubs, females pride and kin....the tiger being the lone hunter will aquit if he is losing the fight since a wounded tiger cannot hunt.Clyde beatty is only one of a 1,000+ lion tiger mixed act trainers, but he did it in the most largest and grandest of scales, by many male and females jungle bred from the wild, and 43 at a time in one cage...
    Clyde beatty as a show man inadvertently proved the bengal is no match for the african lion.

    As for the asiatic lion vs the bengal? Its as good as anyones guess...some statistics can go to the tiger, but most concrete evidence can go to the lion. My guess of indian lion vs the largest of bengals? 50/50
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    It has been a real pleasure reading and researching into this. Almost 5 hours have gone and I'm still wanting to know more - I even forgot to eat! Thanks for taking the time to share this. Do you have a blog/website?

    Also, even though I voted - don't take that as my decision, I often do that with polls here - I'm undecided and will probably remain that way as there simply isn't enough data to go on yet, I'm more intrigued by these creatures more than anything.

    Makes such a pleasant change in contrast to all the other garbage that's typically posted in the Chat forum. Not sure why anyone, including the TSR team, would have an issue with this....
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    (Original post by Final Fantasy)
    It has been a real pleasure reading and researching into this. Almost 5 hours have gone and I'm still wanting to know more - I even forgot to eat! Thanks for taking the time to share this. Do you have a blog/website?Also, even though I voted - don't take that as my decision, I often do that with polls here - I'm undecided and will probably remain that way as there simply isn't enough data to go on yet, I'm more intrigued by these creatures more than anything.Makes such a pleasant change in contrast to all the other garbage that's typically posted in the Chat forum. Not sure why anyone, including the TSR team, would have an issue with this....

    No, no site....I got some of the stuff from the person making the videos, along with a couple of the other forums, I added in a few stuff that I could find on the subject...but not all that much is known of the asiatic lion altogether.There seems to only be 4 or so books that go slightly deep into the subject by indian historians, such as Sudipta mitra, Professor Chavda, Hari shankar singh, and Dr Rangarajan...and thats about it, it seems the indian lion is somewhat in a state of oblivion even to india. I would suspect there are more books and information in india too but they havent been translated to english yet.

    Thats cool, as for the indian lion...I too am undecided who to give the nod to of superiority in terms a fair 1 on 1 fight, if the olden day lion of india was anything like the african lion I would favor it, but according to main stream media, they seem to subject the indian lion to being a fraction of that of the African, and would thence give the tiger a 9/10 win. But these same people of the mainstream dont cite anything other than superficial and low level speculation. With little to no hard facts.My problem is, if people are going to debate the subject or put it on mainstream media, I would atleast wanna see both sides of the coin and be truthful about each's content...so far everything I've seen wager'd in for the tiger has been twisted, exaggerated or fabricated.Feel free to post anything you can find/contribute.





    Another one of the indian lion:"beneath man, the lion is the most
    powerful"
    https://books.google.com/books?id=x9...ful%22&f=false

    https://books.google.com/books?id=db...ful%22&f=false

    Always it is said that the lion is inferior to the tiger in size, but there is no genuine video to show this supporting the tiger.Tigers are said to avoid the lions and desert those jungles in which any roving lion may make its appearance.https://books.google.com/books?id=f9...0tiger&f=false

    He is as strong if not stronger than the tiger but less lithe.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=c7...he.%22&f=false

    Now if it was a one streak way of all the records saying the bengal tiger is stronger than the indian lion, than one could suppose so...but thats not the case, you have alot of people first hand who have seen both in their native haunts that say the lion is stronger as well, hence this throws everything into question, and the only real way of knowing who is superior is the actual contest bout and fight...and there is little to no genuine accounts of first hand, root or original documents of tigers beating the Indian lion other than speculation.

    Even if we go on lesser extants of a direct account, much like the fight that happened in Surat and Ganga india, and to a different comparison of artifacts instead of accounts...then according to all the historical artifacts the lion is always shown the winner, or in a dominate position and the tiger in the defeated end. Why is that?
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    Ouch:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2LTz-Fenig


    Kidnapped Ethiopian girl rescued by caring, protective lions | Grist

    So in the wild, its a natural state to be protective and magnanimous...this means its embeded in their genes, most think its a fluke, yet we can see through out time, lions have been recorded saving things who are attacked by stronger foes:


    (2003)

    When a tiger actually attacked Baumann in the cage during a performance, a lion

    attacked the tiger
    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22When+a+tiger+actuall y+attacked+Baumann+in+the+cage+d uring+a+performance%2C+a+lion%22 +&tbm=bks&oq=%22When+a+tiger+act ually+attacked+Baumann+in+the+ca ge+during+a+performance%2C+a+lio n%22+&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...8735.13092.0.13264.3.3. 0.0.0.0.128.361.0j3.3.0....0...1 ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..3.0.0.wr5vDoeQMpk

    (1991)

    "Getting bit by a tiger is worse than getting shot or stabbed, because there's so much pressure or force behind it," recalls Clayton Rosaire, who was once bitten on the top of the head while trying to break up a tiger tussle. "It's like getting hit by a car with nails." Kay Rosaire still bears scars from a live performance in 1991, when a tiger grabbed and dragged her by the hip. She was saved when a lion intervened and swatted the tiger away.[/b]


    gun missed fire and he thought it&f=false[/b]


    You still think that these artifacts are based on nothing? Or are they actual documentations emited back then of lions saving humans, with nobility, mangnaminity and courage ect:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Zl...4%2C835&edge=0

    https://books.google.com/books?id=hH...4%2C539&edge=0
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    It seems all the stuff tiger supporters tend to use is made up out of thin air, fabricated and faked:

    Heres another one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ERNZLal0ro


    And heres the real source that said they were mating and produced one of the rare hybrid offsprings:


    http://cryptozoologie.xf.cz/4_selmy/leopon.htm


    another one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eqWZJtdhCc


    Heres the real deals:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/...e-week-27-March-2009.html?image=3


    A vet checks the eye of an African lion undergoing eye surgery at a zoo in Ningbo, Zhejiang province, China...under anaesthesia undergoing an eye surgery operation is held by workers at a zoo in Ningbo, Zhejiang province March 23, 2009. The 10-year-old African lion's eye was scratched during a fight with other lions at the zoo, resulting in serious granulomatosis and damage to its eyesight, Xinhua News Agency reported."
    http://mliberalguy.blogspot.com/2009...ican-lion.html


    This is the same moderator on wikipedia aka leo1pard, his and many others state tigers always beat bears, but the records dont show that:



























    A lot of people remember Predator World from last year, when some wolves, a fox and a bear escaped. The bear killed an adult tiger at the park. What this park is known for is its interactions with animals like sharks, tigers and alligators.
    http://bigcatrescue.org/big-cat-atta...capes-in-2008/






    Male tiger was killed by a bear."Female tiger versus brown bear"
    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com
    Also Escaped Bear The From Its Enclosure When A Tree Limb Fell After A Storm "Allowing It To Enter The Enjoining Enclosure And Kill An Adult Female Tiger."


    Zoologist: Eric Kessler



    A field zoologist with over 24 years experience has said:

    "Just about all of the leading zoologists today, seem to agree that the Tom lion will win out in a fight with a Tiger but the lion definitely does not have a harder life in all areas.

    Most people just assume that the slightly larger tiger, complete with mean looking stripes, would win a fight with the lion but during the intense conservation research into bigcats (from about 1980) some major changes to this idea were made. Lions are very clever fighters. The entire assault is planned out. The key is limiting energy and allowing for it. Elements of trickery and sudden turns of savagery are all Lion tom attributes. Recent surveys suggest that lions give away much less weight and strength than was previously supposed, indeed it is unlikely that they do give anything away. If you study all the journal, without prejudice, you will find that the lion behaviour is far more involved with fighting.* The tiger may well generate greater enthusiasm and has certainly attracted a greater number of researchers and the finest too but this does not make the animal more combative.

    All zoologists, serious in bigcat zoology, understand what a terrible fighter the lion tom is. Most of the big game experts involved in conservation on the plains of Africa have had some tiger experience at one time or another and would never back against a good sized Tom lion. Some zoologists involved strictly with tigers have a surprising lack of knowledge regarding lion’s behavior.The best qualified, are Zoologists which are involved in all carnivorous mammals.

    Here, quite simply, the lion tom is much more engaged in fighting than other mammal. Here it will match or better similar weight animals and not likely lose as much as the less experienced fighter. Tigers do fight but nowhere near as much as a pride holding pairing. They do not plan out an assault like a nomadic tom lion. They do not reside in pairs so that they cannot hone their skills during competition for in pride mating.They do not have a mane which is often used as a buffer in battle. If we ignore these options, we ignore zoology.

    All manner of theories can be discussed and they may demonstrate great intelligence. Some of the theory may even be appropriate in one area or another, but the bottom line is that the lion tom is a much more accomplished veteran with similar killing ability and not too much weight disadvantage.

    We can theory all night by using the foundation of passionate zoologists but at the end of it all, the lion tom still has that Physical hair around his head and neck.

    I cannot remove it and I cannot ignore it. They will employ a mane to buffer down an onslaught. These onslaughts will last about 2 minutes before exhaustion is encountered. The critical area is energy retention. The cat is set up to high speed predate and rest. The weapons are in place to fight but the fitness isn’t, at least not for any length.

    Lions have simply evolved to pace their attacks. The regular fighting may create a learnt effect regarding reserving stamina but the long term effect (10000 years) will be genetic instinct acquirement. Big tom lion has the edge would be my appropriate answer when asked. "Through the sexual dimorphism of the species the male lion has evolved to specialize in fighting ability, the social life has allowed for this specialization.Tigers simply couldn't afford to be so perfectly suited for fighting because other demands called for certain traits which were naturally at odds with fighting prowess.
    With females providing food for him the male lion's adapting for hunting and survival was allowed to relax in favor of adaptations specifically suited for his role in the social group. Which happens to basically be fighting at its essence? Now you simply have to accept that lion vs. tiger is fighting machine vs. all-rounder, with the tiger's fighting ability naturally being slightly inferior to the lions. This isn't to say on any given day a tiger won't kill a lion in a scuffle. But the male of the lion species is the superior fighter over the male of the tiger species by definition.
    Denying this is ignoring the amazing planet we live on and how it operates."

    http://www.bluevalleyk12.org/educati...sectionid=1376

    Trainer Bert Noyes thinks a lion can whip two tigers at once:



    Lion Is King. But, although, they have the brains, the paw Is mightier than the trunk, and the lion is king of the beast world. He is so powerful that he can beat a tiger with one paw tied behind his back or two tigers if he uses all his paws, Noyes Inferred. That is, if he isn't "yellow." Displaying certain human characteristics, there occasionally appears one of the monarchs with a streak of cowardice in his makeup. The Hagenbeck-Wallace menagerie had one like this several years ago and as soon as his weakness was discovered he became so despised by his fellow beasts and keepers that the circus finally had to get rid of him. Will Fight Anything: Lions will fight anything other lions, tigers or their youthful trainer, Clyde Beatty, if he would give them a chance. The secret of their prowess is that they possess great strength combined with wily trick-tness. His favorites in the collection, Mr. Noyes whispered confidentially he was standing by the tiger cage at the time are the two brindle gnu, or maybe they're gnus. They, he claimed, are the best behaved and most reserved of the motley family. To Appease Puzzle Fans The .gnu, who looks like a horse with horns and whiskers, Is a fairly recent addition to the menageries of this country.


    ~The Brooklyn Daily Eagle 12 June 1931 › Page 8 https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/58262668/


    If the tiger did not kill the lion in the first minute, the lion would probably win
    http://pantagraph.newspapers.com/newspage/71889699/





    tigers share kills
    https://books.google.com/books?id...4SeyQTNh4KADw&ved=0CB YQ6AEwCA


    A tiger would rather avoid another tiger than fight it for its territory
    https://books.google.com/books?id...MiZyASp_IBI&ved=0CAwQ 6AEwAzgo


    Tigers avoid each other:
    https://books.google.com/books?id...4SMyAS0hoCoAw&ved=0CA YQ6AEwAA


    For the most part adult tigers avoid each other,
    https://books.google.com/books?id...4SMyAS0hoCoAw&ved=0CA gQ6AEwAQ


    Tigers avoid conflicts
    https://books.google.com/books?id...ZGuyASg-oKABw&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg

    The general character of the tiger is that of a cowardly, treacherous, and bloodthirsty animal. But he occasionally displays extraordinary courage in his attack, and, when once in action, the obstinacy of his defence, and the silent game with which he dies, cannot be exceeded.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...Mb4igKq-4CwDg&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw

    Neither are possessed of much active courage; the tiger, indeed, is a coward, and fights only perfidiously,
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...IigK234CwBQ&ved=0CA4 Q6AEwBDgK

    He is as cowardly as he is cunning and surprisingly impudent
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...2iQLq5oGoCw&ved=0CAg Q6AEwATge

    Mr. Thomson's poligar dogs, which were running immediately before the horse's head ; he, however, missed his prey, and agreeably to the nature of that ferocious but cowardly animal, instantly retired to the covert.
    http://www.google.com/search?q=Th..._iQL0oYD4BA&start= 30&sa=N


    We were the less apprehensive of any personal danger, knowing that the tiger is a very cowardly animal,
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...9NKiBiwKM5IBw&ved=0C BgQ6AEwCQ

    It is naturally a cowardly animal, and always retreats from opposition, until wounded or provoked.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...BiwKhsIDwDA&ved=0CAo Q6AEwAjge

    In this endeavour he is in general wounded, and with a roar he plunges into the first thick bush, where he lies, meditating an attack upon any thing approaching, though, for the most part, fear is the predominant feeling of this cowardly animal.
    http://books.google.com/books?pg=...e=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

    These two cases, I think, shew clearly that tigers are naturally cowardly
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...oiQLg1ICYDg&ved=0CAo Q6AEwAjg8

    In classing carnivorous animals, we may place the lion foremost;3 and immediately after him follows the tiger, which seems to partake of all the noxious qualities of the lion, without sharing any of his good ones. To pride, courage, and strength, the lion joins greatness, clemency, and generosity; but the tiger is fierce without provocation, and cruel without necessity. The lion seldom ravages except when excited by hunger; the tiger.on the contrary, though glutted with slaughter, is not satisfied, still continues the carnage, and seems to have its courage only inflamed by not finding resistance.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=bHl13YiBqC

    The lion has more courage than any other animal
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...BiwK1oYHoDA&ved=0CAo Q6AEwAjgU

    This is all confirmed via video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxRQWPRVDsY

    Quickly he clubbed his rifle. A royal Bengal tiger, photographed by Tex Stone at night on an expedition in French Indo- China. or 100 yards and then he decides to go away and resume his nap somewhere else. But the tiger--when he goes away, it's because he's scared of you. The lion doesn't know what fear is."....

    Stone holds the lion to be a tougher antagonist. Having hunted both -- with bow and arrows, and with more orthodox equipment -- he has his information at first hand. ' ··" tiger'll run away from you," he says. ·*· "You come up on him, and he'll turn to go away. But the lion -- well, he goes away too, usually, but it's just because he doesn't want to be bothered. If you crowd him the least bit he'll turn around and come at you. "You come up on him when he's sleepy, you see
    https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/30989359/


    So you have two different traits and qualitys of these animals, one likes to fight, the other likes to avoid confrontation.



    Turn the artifact for scene two, then the lion defeats the tiger:









    With a fierce and freightinning appearnce, the lion is considered the King of beast.
    http://www.lifeofguangzhou.com/no.../2007/06/08/118128054521373.shtml




    Kwoh Poh the commentator of Rh-ya states the suanni devours tigers and leopards
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...JBpSxyATf8IJo&ved=0C AYQ6AEwAA



    Suanni, Zuner qiuer, zaeuiu, zaeuya The text was finished in the late fourth century B.C., according toShaughnessy (1993).

    However, for suanní (21) there is clear evidence in the ùrya• ???Æand
    the Mù Ti´nzi• zhuàn øp§—§l?«(two texts dating — at least in parts —
    from around the third century B.C.55), that the expression was used to
    designate the lion several centuries before the first attestation of sh¥zi•. In
    Old Chinese texts, the term is basically a hapax compound, and only
    rarely reoccurs in pretentiously archaizing literature during the Middle
    Chinese and Modern periods. Cf. the following pre-Middle Chinese
    attestations:
    www.iacd.or.kr/pdf/journal/09/9-01.pdf -
    https://www.google.com/search?q=T...mp;as_filetype=pdf& as_rights=


    Chapter 4 Sajamu (a lion dance): a lion fights with a tiger and eats him up. When the Tal play is complete, Sokakje (a burning ceremony ?) is given.
    http://www.mask.kr/coding/english/sub08.asp

    The lion dance depicts a lion winning a fight with a tiger and eventually eating it.
    221.145.178.204/nrichdata/flk/book/file/NMH34_02.pdf
    http://www.google.com/search?q=Th...LSpIDoCA&sa=N&btnG =Search

    It shows that during the fighting between a lion and a tiger, the tiger is killed and eaten by the lion.
    http://maskdance.com/japanese/sub...p;page=1&mode=view&aseq=7

    A lion and tiger dance together until the lion finally preys on the tiger
    http://www.google.com/search?q=A+...i=RJFaVL3KOoezogT4 34LwCQ&sa=N


    http://beritaseni.com/12-lukisan-rad...aling-populer/
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    According to them, the tiger must have died on Friday night. Deep wounds were found on its neck, lower jaw, and front limbs. Some of its bones were fractured and there were deep cuts in the flesh.
    http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...cle8405606.ece

    A tiger can dig into the mane for a long time, its still hardly got pass the mane
    :

    Which leads to exhaustion
    :

    It seems the queen of france arranged a fight between the two:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Valois

    an exploit of this description, attended with more than ordinary peril, marked the commencement of Crichton's amour with Marguerite de Valois. A combat of animals had been commanded. Scaffoldings, reared around the court, were graced with the flower and loveliness of the land.A fiercely-contestedfight between the ruler of the forest and the sole disputant of his sway, the striped tiger, had terminated in the defeat of the latter. With mane erect and paw heavily imposed upon the lacerated breast of his antagonist, the kingly brute, still growling with rage, glared defiance at the assemblage; when, and amid the bush of silent admiration that succeeded his victory, was heard the light musical laugh of the Queen of Navarre, and the next moment her embroidered kerchief fell at the feet of the slaughtered tiger.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=jL...atter.&f=false

    http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspap...e93f4c173dfcdd

    http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspap...e93f4c173dfcdd

    The bangalore account from another source:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=id...0tiger&f=false

    Its interesting to note the account stated the tiger was large and the lion was medium, this could also have showed a young lion held his ground with a older animal.After a brief greeting he led the way to a private room, where I met his son, his younger brother and other men connected with the show; there also was present, I remember, the superintendent of the Cincinnati Zoological Gardens. After some preliminary conversation the elder Robinson asked me whether I agreed that the tiger grows to be a good deal larger than the lion. I said that naturalists agree that, although on the average the tiger is not so large as the lion, the largest male tigers exceed the largest lions in size and weight by almost one fifth.

    I added that in point of size there is in tigers a greater1 relative difference between the sexes than there is in lions, and that it is doubtful whether a tigress can be found as large as the largest lioness.The largest tigers, I told him, come from the region of the Amur River, Manchuria and Korea and, though perhaps not so richly colored as the tigers from the hot countries of India, bear much heavier coats.https://books.google.com/books?id=ij...0tiger&f=false



    There are reliable records of lions weighing as much as 660 lbs with the average of 450 lbs as normal:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Mt...nds%22&f=false

    So it is is accepted that the larger tigers still only average in all around at 420 lbs, not including the sundarban tigers which would drop the sub-species of then bengal to around 350 lbs. But as illustrated a 500 lb bengal tiger is rare, a 600 lb pounder is extreme and a 700 lb bengal tiger is once in a life time...the same can be said for the lion, who has reached any weight the tiger has if not exceeded even more since lions rarely drop below 400 lbs, yet atleast 70% of the other tiger sub-species has it difficult breaking the 300 lb mark..if a fight scenario was to be determined between a lion and tiger I would think the best conclusion would be upon their average, because whats the use comparing andre the giant to a randomly picked average person? It will reflect almost nothing overall. Both already are slightly different, tigers being longer and lions taller.
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    Man put his whole life into this post O_O
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    (Original post by TSR Mustafa)
    Man put his whole life into this post O_O
    Nah...just thought I post some stuff of substance, this thread has only 3 pages worth, I've seen similar forums that cover this topic stretch out to 300 pages worth with over 5,000 post and thousands of book abstracts, this thread only has about 30 or so book citations...not all that much.

    The difference is substance. But hopefully it can draw a more accurate conclusion of the out come. Instead of a repeating of...no bigger, win, no stronger, win, no better hunter, win...and repeat that same calamity over and over, I think the accounts of conflict is alot more valuable than anything.
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    I counted more than 100 other lions killed by the Mapogo's
    http://www.sunsafaris.com/blog/2012/...brett-thomson/

    As stated by the experts
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JL7...&nohtml5=False

    If a coalitions of males can kill over a 100 lions, what makes you think larger coalitions in india couldnt replicate it against the tiger? Has a tiger ever been documented killing a 100 other tigers, how about just killing ten other tigers? I dont think so, hence I dont see how the tiger would survive well against the indian lions.

    When tigers fight, its not some toting battle that rages all through the jungle, its just a walk by, size each other up and superficial domination:

    https://youtu.be/caTqZh88jPQ

    With only rare occurrences of tigers going all in, when they do fight to the death, it is swift and the killer lands a killing bite more out of luck than skill, in which case when tigers fight the winner usually goes to who ever can land the first good hold on the other and its over, with lions its different, the fights are always prolonged because of the males mane, even entire prides of females 6+ can barely kill a male out right, it has to be a long bout of skillful and powerful punishing of rounds of fights until that male gives in or succumbs...I dont see all that much accounts of tigers killing male lions.


    Asiatic lions once roamed from Turkey, north of Africa, Persia (Iran), Israel, Mesopotamia (Iraq), Palestine, Baluchistan, to many parts of India. In the Indian subcontinent, the carnivore lorded over Punjab, Sindh, Baluchistan, Haryana, Delhi, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Bihar and Jharkhand.
    http://articles.economictimes.indiat...ness-maldharis
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    My question is, why is there such the similarities in the actual photos and the artifacts centurys ago?

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/49435453







    Artifact from french men of india 1840:




    Epic scene in calcutta 1884


    Alfred Bunn, manager of Drury Lane, attested to the scene. "The boldest in the Royal suite speedily retreated"after a lion sprang at a tiger, which had secured the largest piece of meat, and the animals crashed against the side of the cage with such force that it seemed they would break through. "But the youthful Queen", Bunn continued, "never moved either face or foot. With look undiverted and still more deeply riveted she continued to gaze on the novel and moving spectacle" (Bunn 1840: 154).https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=bgsu129 1994738&disposition=inline


    steel engraving - in 1844 scene India


    Eugène verboeckhoven


    The ferocity of the tiger's disposition has been exaggerated; but although capable of being made quite gentle, they are unreliable in their habits, and apt at any instant to attempt the gratification of a blood-thirsty disposition. Keepers of menageries, however much confidence they may feel in the friendship of the "king of beasts," are always nervous about the tiger, and cautious in their movements. We think it was Van Amberg who was unexpectedly set upon by a tiger, when the lion came to his rescue, and actually threw the tiger down, and held him fast until the man escaped.
    http://www.harpers.org/archive/1855/05/0037640

    Think this is the incident the lion saved the trainer in birmingham:



    Some accounts of lions and tigers from another source:
    http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4185765312?pn=1

    The lion of Bombay
 
 
 
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