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    (Original post by z33)
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    What's the Sunnah? Do you mean the Ahadith?
    Some (dare I say most) of those are ******** and not true, made up or lost in interpretation (like Chinese whispers) throughout History. That's why there's people out there who filter them out and take out the stuff that makes sense chronologically and originate from reliable people. However in the major sect of Islam, Sunni Islam, all Ahadith - made up or not - are taken as solid fact and all are true and valid and must be followed - resulting in extremism and incidents such as these. Think about it, a guy who was close friends with the prophet (pbuh) fell out with him over something and decided to twist his words as a means to get revenge by saying he did something he didn't do. Rumour circles around to many people who pass it down to their kids and write it down etc. Modern Muslims take this as true because - fell he was the prophet's friend so must be true right? Shia Muslims look at the origin of the story, the take of the prophet and other people who know him on the story, different accounts and the dates they were published, and THEN decide whether this was true or not. They don't dismiss it like that because it gives you an idea of who was lying in the chain of events and whether this impacts the validity of accounts of other events if said person was involved in them. And that's how we determine whether the prophet really did commit any of those crimes. This is why I'm Muslim, I may be stupid, but I'm not stupid enough to make a murderer/ pedophile my role model.
    But let's not make this about Islam. Let's make this about the child and their family who deserve justice for what was done to them by these savages
    If there is a link between Islam and this crime, then each and every human mind has a moral obligation to try to understand what that link is (If indeed we believe there is a link) to try to prevent further similar atrocities in the future.

    When a psychopath butchers 6 people... do you say
    "lets not make this about psycopaths?"

    This woman may be mentally ill, this woman may be a terrorist...This women may be neither! we do not have the information at hand yet but my question is why does Islamic adherents appear to be overly represented in committing these types of brutal crimes
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Well it seems you've made your own moronic inferences as my post neither said nor implied such a thing.
    its not an inferance, many islam threads in news sections have posts like urs on the front page.

    its stupid and sad. but expected from immature users who cant contribute anything of substance to a conversation. users who'd happily use a childs death to gain some thumbs ups
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    (Original post by childofthesun)
    Leukocyte tried to quote you but couldn't. What's the source for the statement you made?
    He did not kill anyone with his own hand apart from Ubayy ibn Khalaf. Again with this person he only gave him a wound which he knew he would die from it later.

    https://islamqa.info/en/20181
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    The answer is simple; the fate that befell the child, must befall the woman.

    There is a blood debt owed.

    Blood for blood I say.
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    And Moscow was such a beautiful city...

    This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder why I even follow a religion if it causes such barbaric behaviour...
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    (Original post by manutd fc2)
    X
    Incorrect, it is an inference because you incorrectly thought my post meant something it doesn't, nor is there anything in the text that implies that. Simple as.

    You have also made a baseless accusation about me trying to get rep from a child's death even though you don't have a shred of evidence for your claim. Stop acting like a crybaby whose age is mirrored by the number of gems you have and don't blindly demonise people and claim they did things which they didn't just because you don't agree with their comments.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Well actually it is entirely to do with Islam since the woman in question clearly did it for what she thought to be Allah's will. Besides, many other historical texts from the time back up the Sunnah. Then there's the fact that up until recently it's been a source of pride for many Muslims...

    I respect those Muslims who acknowledge the barbarity of these books and who are pushing for a reformed Islam, but not those apologists who try to brush incidents like this under the rug of "not all Muslims." You should really look at fixing the problem rather than avoiding it. In fact, while it's not all Muslims it is in fact the majority of them according to various surveys done on the extent of Islamic extremism in Britain.

    I'm sorry it's not what you want to hear. But unless someone points it out and something is done about it, both your people and mine will continue to suffer from the actions of these fanatics.
    When did I say it had nothing to do with Islam :lol:?
    I never said let's brush it under the rug, I never said let's avoid the problem.
    You said
    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    the Sunnah describes in great detail how their prophet (peace be upon him and all that stuff) committed multiple genocides including that of his own tribe.
    And I said "I think you may be referring to the Ahadith" because 'the Sunnah' is what the prophet has said himself - why would the prophet say he killed members of his own tribe that doesn't make sense. So I corrected you on that because I'm 98% sure that's what you were referring to. I then went on to explain that some/ most of these are untrue and therefore it is not reliable to say "the Sunnah (Ahadith) back ups that the prophet killed his own people" and explained why it is not reliable. And also how different sects of Islam interpret it. That's what I said - did you even read it?

    What do you think I'm some sort of apologist? That feels that in some way this woman's actions are justified? I point this out to my fellow Muslims all the time and have taken action by speaking to some of them with extremist views about this, by going on marches standing up against extremism and by publicly stating my opinion on such incidents in the news. I'm on your side...
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    In the face of such disproportional over representation... We would do well to try and understand the link between the two unless we are going with "its just a coincidence" stance
    Yeah. I think there is some reason that there may be a link, which I think would mainly be to do to with Western involvement in Muslim countries and armed conflict, which is likely to create some kind of resentment. I think the link should be investigated, of course, and any reasoning behind attacks - on both the individual and group level.
    But the prevalence of attacks relative to total Muslim population I feel would likely be non-significant, relative to other similar groups of people. Very very very large group of people, and a media and attentional bias towards them.

    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    I see. This is the sort of direction I wanted the discussion to progress. So its more a cultural / religious link?

    What is it that drives this link and what is the significance behind beheading? Its a pretty hideous thing to do, most humans would not be able to carry out such barbarous acts. There is a distinct difference between plunging a knife into someones chest and beheading somebody even though both acts will usually be fatal
    Yeah. I think there is a cultural link. Many leading Muslim countries are very anti-democratic and use methods to control its population, beheading I guess is one of them. There are many ways to kill, but that method is particularly gruesome and is used to send a message.
    People tend to act in line with cultural systems - where unfortunately beheading still holds a part in many Muslim countries.

    You also really, have to have something wrong with you to do that to a random stranger, no matter who it is.
    Many people may feel resentment to a government for many reasons, but its very different to take it to the level of the individual and do something as extreme as that.

    It may also be a sort of self fulfilling thing. You 'decide' to kill someone, so you say its in the name of god. Maybe as a defence mechanism in the way of saying the murder is okay, but maybe because there is a media bias towards religious extremists and so maybe a copycat thing.
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    (Original post by greatguy231)
    This had nothing to do with islam.
    Yes it does. Islam may not be the only factor, but screaming "Allahu akbar" most certainly does point to the fact that Islam is involved.
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    (Original post by greatguy231)
    But if it was a white man doing this yours would say 'lonewolf' 'mentally ill' etc.
    Yes thats right of course i would "Greatguy" - Thankyou for speculating on what you think i would say had the perpetrator been a white man.

    Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or are you just going to wildly fire speculative attacks which you perceive to discredit me and the questions i am asking which you read on tumblr somewhere whilst enjoying the smell of your own farts?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Yes it does. Islam may not be the only factor, but screaming "Allahu akbar" most certainly does point to the fact that Islam is involved.
    So if I went outside and starting setting things on fire and shokuted 'allajh barah' - that mean islam is responsible even though I am an atheists?
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    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    He did not kill anyone with his own hand apart from Ubayy ibn Khalaf. Again with this person he only gave him a wound which he knew he would die from it later.

    https://islamqa.info/en/20181
    Ah, I know about that, which is why I was confused when you said he never killed anyone at all...
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    ...
    The article doesn't say that she's Muslim.
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    (Original post by manutd fc2)
    im sure the russians greatly care about covering up and absolving islam or muslims of blame. totally .
    Not what is being said here. Try again.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Yes thats right of course i would "Greatguy" - Thankyou for speculating on what you think i would say had the perpetrator been a white man.

    Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or are you just going to wildly fire speculative attacks which you perceive to discredit me and the questions i am asking which you read on tumblr somewhere whilst enjoying the smell of your own farts?
    Yesterday in london 2 teenagers stabbed another one to death. How come you not talking about that? is it because they weren't muslims so you cant bash the religion for that?
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    (Original post by childofthesun)
    Ah, I know about that, which is why I was confused when you said he never killed anyone at all...
    (Original post by Leukocyte)
    He did not kill anyone with his own hand apart from Ubayy ibn Khalaf. Again with this person he only gave him a wound which he knew he would die from it later.

    https://islamqa.info/en/20181
    It doesn't really matter how many people he killed with his own hands. He is no doubt responsible for the deaths of many more through his commands
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Moronic comparison. If you're an atheist then by definition you're not Muslim nor believe in Allah :facepalm:
    But you just said if I if someone shouts 'allah arsbar' that means islam is responsible. So going by your logic islam is to blame for everything.
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Yeah. I think there is some reason that there may be a link, which I think would mainly be to do to with Western involvement in Muslim countries and armed conflict, which is likely to create some kind of resentment. I think the link should be investigated, of course, and any reasoning behind attacks - on both the individual and group level.
    But the prevalence of attacks relative to total Muslim population I feel would likely be non-significant, relative to other similar groups of people. Very very very large group of people, and a media and attentional bias towards them.



    Yeah. I think there is a cultural link. Many leading Muslim countries are very anti-democratic and use methods to control its population, beheading I guess is one of them. There are many ways to kill, but that method is particularly gruesome and is used to send a message.
    People tend to act in line with cultural systems - where unfortunately beheading still holds a part in many Muslim countries.

    You also really, have to have something wrong with you to do that to a random stranger, no matter who it is.
    Many people may feel resentment to a government for many reasons, but its very different to take it to the level of the individual and do something as extreme as that.

    It may also be a sort of self fulfilling thing. You 'decide' to kill someone, so you say its in the name of god. Maybe as a defence mechanism in the way of saying the murder is okay, but maybe because there is a media bias towards religious extremists and so maybe a copycat thing.
    Thanks for the well thought out response.. This is the sort of discussion i was hoping to generate
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    If there is a link between Islam and this crime, then each and every human mind has a moral obligation to try to understand what that link is (If indeed we believe there is a link) to try to prevent further similar atrocities in the future.

    When a psychopath butchers 6 people... do you say
    "lets not make this about psycopaths?"

    This woman may be mentally ill, this woman may be a terrorist...This women may be neither! we do not have the information at hand yet but my question is why does Islamic adherents appear to be overly represented in committing these types of brutal crimes
    I'm just saying it could be perceived as disrespectful to the family and the child if we just throw this away into the statistics of how Islam and these acts are linked instead of expressing our condolences since I thought that's what the threads about...

    But okay then, this woman has obviously got some sort of mental illness, no sane human being can commit such vile acts. She's also a nanny, who was clearly trusted by the parents to take care of this child. I don't know if they have a history with her or not but she must've looked good for the job on paper. Also I'd like to point out that even though there may be verses in the Quran you can claim to encourage murder, even if there are Ahadith that encourage such vile acts, they all exclude children. I'm sure you cant find anything anywhere suggesting killing a child in the name of Islam is a right thing to do on any level. Another reason why I think this was mainly to do with her mental health.
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    (Original post by teenhorrorstory)
    It doesn't really matter how many people he killed with his own hands. He is no doubt responsible for the deaths of many more through his commands
    How can someone who doesn't exist be responsible for anything?
 
 
 
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