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    Yessir, the US of A is the greatiss got damm country on the got damm planet Earth.
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    (Original post by TheOpinion)
    *fires ten warning shots into someone's back*
    :laugh:

    Very good
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    :laugh:

    Very good
    Thank you thank you

    I will admit I stole it from The Fresh Prince of Bel Air
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    This line more than anything annoys me. Possibly more so than most soundbites. When on earth was America ever 'great'? When it caused a global economic crash in the 20s which was a contributing factor to the world war? When in the 60s it still had segregation? When in the 90s over 40 million were uninsured for health care?


    Not saying America doesn't have its good points but which era are trump and other republicans referring to when they want to make America great 'again'?

    Not saying that other countries are great, they certainly aren't but the notion that there was a period when everything was just 'great' in any country, let alone America is nonsense.
    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Maybe Donald considered going with 'Make America Slightly Less *****y', but didn't think it would play as well with one of the most patriotic electorates on the planet.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I agree on the relativity front but I still don't think you can call it 'great' or even close to 'great' when up until a few decades ago they had legally enforced segregation.
    That's one example.
    Yes you are right, nothing will be perfect, but you'd expect a lot better than that to be able to call yourself 'great.
    "Make America great again" means Make America dominate again. "Great" just has a better ring to it.

    (Original post by Aj12)
    For the most part it is rhetoric, but it is about recapturing the feel of the 90's. America was unquestionably powerful. It had no competitor, no power could match it on any field and economically it was ascendant. For trump's supporters jobs would have been easy to come by and there was little fear ( in the early decade) of jobs being shipped en masse to China.

    You don't seem to have much understanding of how Trump's voters see the world. They believe they have been conned and marginalized by the "establishment" and want to revert to a time when politicians seemed to have their interests at heart, when jobs were easily accessible and were secure. For them Trump will do this. It is less about going to a specific time point and more about recapturing a rose tinted view of the past.


    It is also funny you mention all the uninsured Americans as a major issue. For the most part they have never rated it much of an issue themselves, other than brief frenzied interest. I wonder if there is something uniquely American about healthcare that us Europeans simply don't understand.
    This is extremely perceptive. It is not the whole story, but it is a considerable part of it.
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    Can't wait till the fall of USA
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    America has this idea ingrained into their culture that their country and way of life is the best in the world. It's been like this for generations. They have to dominate everything. That slogan is just pandering to the idiocy of so many American people for easy votes.

    It's insane how crappy the American state is to it's people, yet how patriotic they still tend to be. It's like Stockholm Syndrome or something.
    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    He's playing to the US populus. They have an incredibly extreme sense of patriotism, it's not like Britain where we regularly take the piss out of ourselves. Self-deprecation isn't really understood over there.
    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    He's playing to the "woo 'merica" crowd.
    (Original post by Swanbow)
    Well I imagine for Conservatives, and Right Wing Americans, they look towards the late 1940s until the early 1960s, with the emergence of American political and military hegemony and huge economic growth and the Reagan years, with neo-liberal reforms and a more brazen foreign policy, during the 1980s as their 'great' periods.

    Whereas Liberals might look more fondly on the New Deal during the 1930s and 1940s with the creation of social security and huge investment in infrastructure, as well social reform during the mid to late 1960s and Bill Clinton's relativity stable presidency as their 'great' periods.

    But I suspect hardly anyone looks at the 1970s or 2000s as a great period in America, which were both plagued by economic crises, political scandals, unpopular presidencies and a changing role of where America stood in the global system.
    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I don't see how you can agree with the relativism and then make the latter claim, though. Surely it follows from the first point that whether America was great or not in any given year depends on whom you ask. I'm sure the planters considered the days of slavery to be pretty great, even though you and I don't.

    I agree that it's a facile slogan but, then, most slogans are.
    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    or they just tend to agree with capitalism more than socialism; would you consider america a democracy in the same sense that we are?
    The patriotic psyche of Americans can be attributed to a perceived legacy more than any current reality. The colonization, revolution, and then expansion of America says something about the human spirit. It was an ideal that Americans aspired to.

    Consider the profound significance of the Founding Fathers actions. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were prominent men. They enjoyed privileged lives. When they signed the Declaration, they essentially signed their own death warrant. They risked not only their own lives, but their legacy and the security of their families. They were willing to risk all this for nothing more than the ideal. Name one modern politician who worthy of such conviction and devotion to their principles.

    Then understand what America's colonization represents to its citizens. The puritans in actuality only occupied a few colonies. Their relevance is limited to a symbolic one. The real legacy of America's evolution is of opportunists, gamblers, and rebels. The emigrants who truly shaped America's destiny risked everything with no guarantees. They counted on nothing but their own potential and resilience. Imagine an all of Europe encumbered with a social system more focused on class than any of us today can truly appreciate. Now consider the amount of untapped potential that must have existed in a perpetual state of frustration. America's colonization and subsequent mass emigration exploited that potential. "Give me you poor, your tired your huddled masses" is a nice sentiment but it is not entirely honest. It actually should have been, "Give me your desperate, your ambitious, your defiant masses." The early emigrants to the United States were bold people. They often spent their life savings on the ticket. They depended on no entitlements. They uprooted their families and faced an uncertain future. They were motivated by available land and ample opportunity, and that belief was founded in the conviction that a chance is all they needed. That kind of courage, and determination is uncommon amongst the privileged citizenship of today's developed world, and I fear that their spirit is lost to us. It is a shame because their place in history is significant.

    I don't think all patriotism is founded in ignorance. The problem is that certain people associate patriotism with fascism. To them a patriot is no different than a nationalist and a racist. In other words they view a patriot as ignorant. So in their flawed logic, they assume that a lack of patriotism is an indication of enlightenment. Their own pretense of intellectual superiority then demands that they scorn any manifestation of national pride. The sad truth is that an absence of allegiance does not come from a lack of prejudice, but from a lack of conviction.
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    (Original post by ckingalt)
    The patriotic psyche of Americans can be attributed to a perceived legacy more than any current reality. The colonization, revolution, and then expansion of America says something about the human spirit. It was an ideal that Americans aspired to.

    Consider the profound significance of the Founding Fathers actions. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were prominent men. They enjoyed privileged lives. When they signed the Declaration, they essentially signed their own death warrant. They risked not only their own lives, but their legacy and the security of their families. They were willing to risk all this for nothing more than the ideal. Name one modern politician who worthy of such conviction and devotion to their principles.

    Then understand what America's colonization represents to its citizens. The puritans in actuality only occupied a few colonies. Their relevance is limited to a symbolic one. The real legacy of America's evolution is of opportunists, gamblers, and rebels. The emigrants who truly shaped America's destiny risked everything with no guarantees. They counted on nothing but their own potential and resilience. Imagine an all of Europe encumbered with a social system more focused on class than any of us today can truly appreciate. Now consider the amount of untapped potential that must have existed in a perpetual state of frustration. America's colonization and subsequent mass emigration exploited that potential. "Give me you poor, your tired your huddled masses" is a nice sentiment but it is not entirely honest. It actually should have been, "Give me your desperate, your ambitious, your defiant masses." The early emigrants to the United States were bold people. They often spent their life savings on the ticket. They depended on no entitlements. They uprooted their families and faced an uncertain future. They were motivated by available land and ample opportunity, and that belief was founded in the conviction that a chance is all they needed. That kind of courage, and determination is uncommon amongst the privileged citizenship of today's developed world, and I fear that their spirit is lost to us. It is a shame because their place in history is significant.

    I don't think all patriotism is founded in ignorance. The problem is that certain people associate patriotism with fascism. To them a patriot is no different than a nationalist and a racist. In other words they view a patriot as ignorant. So in their flawed logic, they assume that a lack of patriotism is an indication of enlightenment. Their own pretense of intellectual superiority then demands that they scorn any manifestation of national pride. The sad truth is that an absence of allegiance does not come from a lack of prejudice, but from a lack of conviction.
    Do most patriotic Americans share that level of insight and eloquence, Or is their patriotism something much more simple?
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    (Original post by ckingalt)
    The patriotic psyche of Americans can be attributed to a perceived legacy more than any current reality. The colonization, revolution, and then expansion of America says something about the human spirit. It was an ideal that Americans aspired to.

    Consider the profound significance of the Founding Fathers actions. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were prominent men. They enjoyed privileged lives. When they signed the Declaration, they essentially signed their own death warrant. They risked not only their own lives, but their legacy and the security of their families. They were willing to risk all this for nothing more than the ideal. Name one modern politician who worthy of such conviction and devotion to their principles.

    Then understand what America's colonization represents to its citizens. The puritans in actuality only occupied a few colonies. Their relevance is limited to a symbolic one. The real legacy of America's evolution is of opportunists, gamblers, and rebels. The emigrants who truly shaped America's destiny risked everything with no guarantees. They counted on nothing but their own potential and resilience. Imagine an all of Europe encumbered with a social system more focused on class than any of us today can truly appreciate. Now consider the amount of untapped potential that must have existed in a perpetual state of frustration. America's colonization and subsequent mass emigration exploited that potential. "Give me you poor, your tired your huddled masses" is a nice sentiment but it is not entirely honest. It actually should have been, "Give me your desperate, your ambitious, your defiant masses." The early emigrants to the United States were bold people. They often spent their life savings on the ticket. They depended on no entitlements. They uprooted their families and faced an uncertain future. They were motivated by available land and ample opportunity, and that belief was founded in the conviction that a chance is all they needed. That kind of courage, and determination is uncommon amongst the privileged citizenship of today's developed world, and I fear that their spirit is lost to us. It is a shame because their place in history is significant.

    I don't think all patriotism is founded in ignorance. The problem is that certain people associate patriotism with fascism. To them a patriot is no different than a nationalist and a racist. In other words they view a patriot as ignorant. So in their flawed logic, they assume that a lack of patriotism is an indication of enlightenment. Their own pretense of intellectual superiority then demands that they scorn any manifestation of national pride. The sad truth is that an absence of allegiance does not come from a lack of prejudice, but from a lack of conviction.
    Very well put.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yet people lap it up.Its the same as people here who go on about making 'Britain great' or 'British values' etc.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Nationalism in America is exclusionary and isolationist, a very unappealing trait.Being proud for being born somewhere is daft. We all won the post code lottery to be born in the first world and not some third world country. Why should we be 'proud' for winning the lottery, we did nothing to earn or deserve it.
    I don't think any civilised person is proud of being born in a specific country. It's much harder to explain the feeling you have for being glad and appreciative you have been born into a tolerant, civil society that pursues enlightened principles such as the advance of technology or the improvement of the welfare of its citizens. It's perfectly reasonable to want to defend the aspects of your country or society that have produced yourself and the people you care about.

    Many practices may no longer be unique to Britain but this is certainly their place of origin.

    Parliamentary Democracy
    Freedom of the press
    The sharing of knowledge through the publishing of scientific journals
    The formation of modern charitable organisations
    The use of Common Law

    Britain is a tolerant country and over the decades many groups such Afro-Caribbean people, Hindus, Sikhs and Chinese people have integrated into society.

    There are national characteristics such as our good natured self depreciation and witty and sarcastic humour that isn't found elsewhere. Maybe your football hooligan doesn't have much manners but people at large are polite.

    We are a nation of Dog walkers and lovers, a relic of our ancestors who bred countless dog breeds during the Victorian era.

    I'm trying to stay away from political issues but there are plenty more to be found. I think to say that there are no 'British values' requires a significant and intentional blindness.

    British values spurred on the Industrial Revolution, the end of Slavery, the formation of the first global economic system, the end of child labour and many other key events that without the world would be a much harsher and desolate place to live. These events could not have happened without widespread public support of the British people, our ancestors.
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    (Original post by Roofas)
    British values spurred on the Industrial Revolution
    I agree with you on your other points as well but I think it's important to note that this was not the principle nor the most important cause of the industrial revolution.
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    He's playing to the US populus. They have an incredibly extreme sense of patriotism, it's not like Britain where we regularly take the piss out of ourselves. Self-deprecation isn't really understood over there.
    Spot on, luke
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    This.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMqcLUqYqrs
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    (Original post by Roofas)
    I don't think any civilised person is proud of being born in a specific country. It's much harder to explain the feeling you have for being glad and appreciative you have been born into a tolerant, civil society that pursues enlightened principles such as the advance of technology or the improvement of the welfare of its citizens. It's perfectly reasonable to want to defend the aspects of your country or society that have produced yourself and the people you care about.

    Many practices may no longer be unique to Britain but this is certainly their place of origin.

    Parliamentary Democracy
    Freedom of the press
    The sharing of knowledge through the publishing of scientific journals
    The formation of modern charitable organisations
    The use of Common Law

    Britain is a tolerant country and over the decades many groups such Afro-Caribbean people, Hindus, Sikhs and Chinese people have integrated into society.

    There are national characteristics such as our good natured self depreciation and witty and sarcastic humour that isn't found elsewhere. Maybe your football hooligan doesn't have much manners but people at large are polite.

    We are a nation of Dog walkers and lovers, a relic of our ancestors who bred countless dog breeds during the Victorian era.

    I'm trying to stay away from political issues but there are plenty more to be found. I think to say that there are no 'British values' requires a significant and intentional blindness.

    British values spurred on the Industrial Revolution, the end of Slavery, the formation of the first global economic system, the end of child labour and many other key events that without the world would be a much harsher and desolate place to live. These events could not have happened without widespread public support of the British people, our ancestors.
    But British values could equally be colonialism, invading a country, slaughtering the current inhabitants, setting up concentration camps there and then starting off and playing a huge role in the slave trade.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    But British values could equally be colonialism, invading a country, slaughtering the current inhabitants, setting up concentration camps there and then starting off and playing a huge role in the slave trade.
    These are not exclusive to Britain; many of the ideas Roofas suggested are indeed due to Britain and its unique situation.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    But British values could equally be colonialism, invading a country, slaughtering the current inhabitants, setting up concentration camps there and then starting off and playing a huge role in the slave trade.
    Which we don't do anymore, as well as being commonly accepted to be wrong.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Which we don't do anymore, as well as being commonly accepted to be wrong.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    The point being that there's no such concrete thing as 'British values' as much as people pretend there is.
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    (Original post by ckingalt)
    The patriotic psyche of Americans can be attributed to a perceived legacy more than any current reality. The colonization, revolution, and then expansion of America says something about the human spirit. It was an ideal that Americans aspired to.

    Consider the profound significance of the Founding Fathers actions. The signers of the Declaration of Independence were prominent men. They enjoyed privileged lives. When they signed the Declaration, they essentially signed their own death warrant. They risked not only their own lives, but their legacy and the security of their families. They were willing to risk all this for nothing more than the ideal. Name one modern politician who worthy of such conviction and devotion to their principles.

    Then understand what America's colonization represents to its citizens. The puritans in actuality only occupied a few colonies. Their relevance is limited to a symbolic one. The real legacy of America's evolution is of opportunists, gamblers, and rebels. The emigrants who truly shaped America's destiny risked everything with no guarantees. They counted on nothing but their own potential and resilience. Imagine an all of Europe encumbered with a social system more focused on class than any of us today can truly appreciate. Now consider the amount of untapped potential that must have existed in a perpetual state of frustration. America's colonization and subsequent mass emigration exploited that potential. "Give me you poor, your tired your huddled masses" is a nice sentiment but it is not entirely honest. It actually should have been, "Give me your desperate, your ambitious, your defiant masses." The early emigrants to the United States were bold people. They often spent their life savings on the ticket. They depended on no entitlements. They uprooted their families and faced an uncertain future. They were motivated by available land and ample opportunity, and that belief was founded in the conviction that a chance is all they needed. That kind of courage, and determination is uncommon amongst the privileged citizenship of today's developed world, and I fear that their spirit is lost to us. It is a shame because their place in history is significant.

    I don't think all patriotism is founded in ignorance. The problem is that certain people associate patriotism with fascism. To them a patriot is no different than a nationalist and a racist. In other words they view a patriot as ignorant. So in their flawed logic, they assume that a lack of patriotism is an indication of enlightenment. Their own pretense of intellectual superiority then demands that they scorn any manifestation of national pride. The sad truth is that an absence of allegiance does not come from a lack of prejudice, but from a lack of conviction.
    Patriotism = Nationalism

    It's blind following, both of them, it's modern day mental slavery. It creates an us and them syndrome, how can that be good?
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    (Original post by Roofas)
    I don't think any civilised person is proud of being born in a specific country. It's much harder to explain the feeling you have for being glad and appreciative you have been born into a tolerant, civil society that pursues enlightened principles such as the advance of technology or the improvement of the welfare of its citizens. It's perfectly reasonable to want to defend the aspects of your country or society that have produced yourself and the people you care about.

    Many practices may no longer be unique to Britain but this is certainly their place of origin.

    Parliamentary Democracy
    Freedom of the press
    The sharing of knowledge through the publishing of scientific journals
    The formation of modern charitable organisations
    The use of Common Law

    Britain is a tolerant country and over the decades many groups such Afro-Caribbean people, Hindus, Sikhs and Chinese people have integrated into society.

    There are national characteristics such as our good natured self depreciation and witty and sarcastic humour that isn't found elsewhere. Maybe your football hooligan doesn't have much manners but people at large are polite.

    We are a nation of Dog walkers and lovers, a relic of our ancestors who bred countless dog breeds during the Victorian era.

    I'm trying to stay away from political issues but there are plenty more to be found. I think to say that there are no 'British values' requires a significant and intentional blindness.

    British values spurred on the Industrial Revolution, the end of Slavery, the formation of the first global economic system, the end of child labour and many other key events that without the world would be a much harsher and desolate place to live. These events could not have happened without widespread public support of the British people, our ancestors.
    Britain also had a part in the colonization and destruction of many countries economies today. Are British people proud about that too? Because that goes along with your nationalist patriotism!
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Which we don't do anymore, as well as being commonly accepted to be wrong.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Precisely.

    We take the good parts as our present day values, and build on them. This is a force for good. It's a statement of aspiration more than of social or historical fact.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    3edgy5me

    One of the most appealing aspects of American culture is that they actually have a little pride and self-confidence in their national identity imho.
    well said ! i work for Americans from time to time & it is always a pleasure; they are very family-oriented and proud of their country. nations are about families when all is said and done, not about global economics.
 
 
 
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