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Why do poorer children not get into grammar schools and what can we do to improve it? Watch

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    They do in northern ireland etc you need different data.
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    Middle class parents flock to the grammar school areas (eg. Kent) and drive the house prices up, making the areas even more middle class.

    If there were more grammar schools all over the country this wouldn't be an issue.
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    (Original post by Serine Soul)
    How do you get poorer kids to go to grammar schools when there's so few in poorer areas?
    Yes, zoning. A whole new discriminatory story.
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    (Original post by Ravenous)
    Don't have access to tutors (due to lack of money) which would give them an advantage etc

    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    Just make all schools good rather than having grammar schools.


    Grammar schools are BS because middle class kids have more cultural capital to pass the exams so they exacerbate social inequality.

    (Original post by TheOtherSide.)
    Probably because richer children's parents can afford the students the tuition that will give them a headstart when taking 11 plus exams or whatever other exams there are.

    To change this situation, there'd ideally be no instance in which richer children got more help, although this is pretty hard to implement.

    Having said that, I don't think it's wholly true that poorer children don't have as much of a chance getting into grammar schools (me being an example ), since it ultimately should depend just on how well you do the exams.

    Overall, grammar schools are still pretty pointless, since people always find a way to cheat and get in...

    (Original post by Keyhofi)
    Poorer kids live in poorer areas with poorer schools and thus get poorer exam results.

    Generally speaking.

    (Original post by Gryffindorian)
    Pretty much this. No way around it. It's called "institutional racism and classism (for those who are white but still poor)." So horrible.

    (Original post by Gryffindorian)
    I hear paid private tutoring is the reason why children who get into grammar schools...get into grammar schools.

    Actually I didn't hear, I read it on moms.net. The silly little cows giving away their secrets.

    (Original post by Astrtricks)
    Probably because they not only don't have access to tutoring but they're education is likely worse (I'm sure there's some very good statistics linking primary schools in deprived areas with low attainment at age 11 and further on), additionally they probably don't have motivation or aspiration to go to grammar schools compared to children from wealthier backgrounds. additional poverty can have knock on effects and is related to other factors; hunger, unstable families etc....

    You could argue for primary schools or prep/private schools to nominate the top say 20% of a year and then for those children that wish to go to a grammar schools be placed in a lottery to choose the places thus making the process fairer, as children who go to a school in a deprived area are likely to themselves be deprived and equally children who go to schools in wealthy areas would themselves be wealthy so the distribution would be more representative of the entire area that a school serves
    I think people who attribute better academic results to better schools or access to tutors are focusing on the least of the contributing factors. You could fill an elite private school with nothing but students from impoverished neighborhoods and expose them to the best possible facilities with extraordinary teachers. If all other poverty related circumstances remain the same in their life, then academic performance will not improve significantly for most. Teachers can greatly influence a child's knowledge, but it is parents and peers who rule over a child's habits. Poor students fail because they have adopted the habits of poor people. Tutors can't un-teach that.
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    (Original post by homeland.lsw)
    Kinda...sometimes I muck around at ICH, and forget to realise that my place could have been for someone else that goes to somewhere like Forest Academy...
    What year are you in?
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    (Original post by Gryffindorian)
    Yes, zoning. A whole new discriminatory story.
    Yep, there's none in my town or my neighbouring towns, and we're deemed to be some of the most deprived in the country

    I've said this many times, grammar schools pretty much just save middle class parents from splashing out money to send their kids to a private school.

    Social mobility? My arse.
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    Tutors and practice questions. Don't know anyone in my school who didn't do them to get in in year 7. Making verbal/non-verbal reasoning papers more readily available for less rich pupils might help them to understand the format of some questions in entry papers for grammar schools and therefore possible help to level the playing field.
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    (Original post by Serine Soul)
    Yep, there's none in my town or my neighbouring towns, and we're deemed to be some of the most deprived in the country

    I've said this many times, grammar schools pretty much just save middle class parents from splashing out money to send their kids to a private school.

    Social mobility? My arse.
    Sounds like something PTA housewives came up with to make their kids' lives easier. And I mean good for them (I guess) but at the same time why institutionalise discrimination. Everyone should be getting the same quality education! And then they complain about the drop-out rate and judge people of colour and of working class as uneducated?
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    (Original post by glassriver)
    Tutors and practice questions. Don't know anyone in my school who didn't do them to get in in year 7. Making verbal/non-verbal reasoning papers more readily available for less rich pupils might help them to understand the format of some questions in entry papers for grammar schools and therefore possible help to level the playing field.
    I only did one set (I was a lazy child who refused to do anything) but I don't think I would have known how to answer the questions without that example. I had never taken a formal exam before, this is an excellent point
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    (Original post by glassriver)
    Tutors and practice questions. Don't know anyone in my school who didn't do them to get in in year 7. Making verbal/non-verbal reasoning papers more readily available for less rich pupils might help them to understand the format of some questions in entry papers for grammar schools and therefore possible help to level the playing field.
    Yes!!

    And it's wrong. So wrong that "certain" people are NOT taught these!
    I have professors now who say (one in particular is a former politician who had a Jewish flatmate during his years at University): "they weren't anymore smarter than I was. They simply knew exactly what would be on the bar exam, and memorised the answers and format."

    !!?

    So now he just gives us exactly what he'll ask us, and we memorise it.

    Was this...the secret to not being working class all along?
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    (Original post by ckingalt)
    I think people who attribute better academic results to better schools or access to tutors are focusing on the least of the contributing factors. You could fill an elite private school with nothing but students from impoverished neighborhoods and expose them to the best possible facilities with extraordinary teachers. If all other poverty related circumstances remain the same in their life, then academic performance will not improve significantly for most. Teachers can greatly influence a child's knowledge, but it is parents and peers who rule over a child's habits. Poor students fail because they have adopted the habits of poor people. Tutors can't un-teach that.
    Lol.
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    (Original post by AmeliaBaldwin)
    I only did one set (I was a lazy child who refused to do anything) but I don't think I would have known how to answer the questions without that example. I had never taken a formal exam before, this is an excellent point
    A problem for some students might be that they don't recognise the type of question (e.g. the one with the net of a cube and you have to work out what goes where) so have to spend more time working out how to answer the question.
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    They've never heard of them, there are none in the local area and they can't afford the travel costs would be my guesses.
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    (Original post by Serine Soul)
    Yep, there's none in my town or my neighbouring towns, and we're deemed to be some of the most deprived in the country

    I've said this many times, grammar schools pretty much just save middle class parents from splashing out money to send their kids to a private school.

    Social mobility? My arse.
    This is interesting
    Would you argue that, even if they were equally distributed throughout the country, grammar schools are no different to comprehensives?
    If grammar schools were to have students with household incomes in proportion to the general public, would they actually be any better at educating? And are there any specific differences between comprehensives and grammar schools in regards to the education itself?
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    (Original post by Gryffindorian)
    Yes!!

    And it's wrong. So wrong that "certain" people are NOT taught these!
    I have professors now who say (one in particular is a former politician who had a Jewish flatmate during his years at University): "they weren't anymore smarter than I was. They simply knew exactly what would be on the bar exam, and memorised the answers and format."

    !!?

    So now he just gives us exactly what he'll ask us, and we memorise it.

    Was this...the secret to not being working class all along?
    Guess it's like doing practice science ISAs at GCSE. Some teachers will go through exactly how to answer each question as they have the same format and the students will just go on the get A*/As whereas someone who gets thrown in at the deep end will have to puzzle their way through without knowing exactly what the requirements are.

    It might be true, perhaps people who are 'working class' are just those who don't have the privilege of preparation.
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    (Original post by glassriver)
    Guess it's like doing practice science ISAs at GCSE. Some teachers will go through exactly how to answer each question as they have the same format and the students will just go on the get A*/As whereas someone who gets thrown in at the deep end will have to puzzle their way through without knowing exactly what the requirements are.

    It might be true, perhaps people who are 'working class' are just those who don't have the privilege of preparation.
    I did spelling bees as a child () but my English teacher didn't even help me
    So when it came to the competitions, I was unprepared. I know for a fact that other kids and schools get active tutoring because I moved to another area, better than that previous one, and they got tutoring as a standard for the spelling bee. It doesn't take genius to win spelling bees; it takes studying tricks.
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    Two reasons.

    1. Higher income families can afford to pay for extra tuition to help the kids pass entrance exams and get place etc.

    2. Middle-class people often swarm around Grammar school catchment areas. Buying up houses and driving up prices.


    Right now many Grammar school pupils are from pretty well off families that decided to save themselves the cost of private school fees.

    Most Grammar schools in the UK have gone but those that have remained are mostly populated by middle class kids.


    They are not aiding social mobility as much as they should be. A lot clearly needs to change.


    *No leftie btw.
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    (Original post by AmeliaBaldwin)
    www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01398.pdf

    I have a debate on this soon and I was hoping to get some ideas from a range of different people in different situations
    This is jokes. Sorry I mean.

    I'm quite poor (compared to the people in my school).

    I go to Watford Grammar School For Boys.

    Basically, I understand that the richer kids do have an advantage, their parents tend to be (usually) smarter, more "parent-friendly" resulting in kids being better.

    On the other hand, you get fresh poor parents like mine, who travel across the world or borders to get to the UK. Not much experience. They're great I guess for the fact they want you to do well. Struggle on actually helping their kids out. Like my parents I know want me to do well, but the way they show that is quite difficult and kinda impacts me negatively.

    On the whole the point I'm making is, poorer children have less chance of going into grammar schools because their parents ain't as "parenty" as the rich kids. Furthermore, my view will be challenged and probably seen as wrong, and gladly would respond to responses.

    This is coming from a not so well off guy.

    Good day.
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    looking at my local grammar school I came to the conclusion this happens because tight middle parents who do not want to pay fees for private schools send their kids there and the "school" prefers these kids
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    (Original post by ||TheUnknown||)
    What year are you in?
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