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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    There won't be tourist visas. There weren't in 1972 and there won't be now. However visas will be needed for other things; students, workers, retirement residents, and it is not self-evident they will be granted.

    For example, it is not obvious that UK students etc will be allowed to work abroad in low paid positions or that Spain and Portugal will be as welcoming to retirees in poor health.
    incorrect, it was only since uks opting in of 1990 Schengen Convention allowing implementation of the 90 day visa free visit, and by passing normal border control convnesions. And that was at a time with much less border sensitivities thant 2016.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, I don't know about that. I don't really expect Spain to kick out a few hundred thousand expats.

    The question is their long term access to healthcare, welfare and etc and how that is affected since they would be non-EU immigrants.

    These are answers that I don't think anyone can really give an answer to till Brexit happens.
    unless spain greece etc has a mass amnesty on brits already there i cant see what else they would do. given these people arnt working and paying taxes over there anymore - but even then all those brits would have to give up their british citezenship to remain legally - would they do that do you think?
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    They were dishonest but to our European partners. When did British government policy stop being to join the Euro when we met the 5 economic tests and met the convergence criteria? I do not recall ever hearing the announcement. It just drifted into the miasma.
    I'm not sure it's so clear cut even within the Labour party. My sense is that Blair was personally very much for it and Brown personally very much against.

    Of course having committed to a referendum on the subject and with public opinion peaking at 65-35 against the thing had to be quietly shelved somehow, and that was a party political decision pretty much independent of any view on whether the Euro would be beneficial for the country.

    If however you look at what Blair et al said at the time about the Euro, they said that membership was vital to Britain's long term economic future, trade relationships, etc. etc.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    They were dishonest but to our European partners. When did British government policy stop being to join the Euro when we met the 5 economic tests and met the convergence criteria? I do not recall ever hearing the announcement. It just drifted into the miasma.
    It says a lot about the ludicrous looking glass world that is the European Union that they had to pretend in the first place. Why not be upfront and honest?

    Because that is not to be "communataire", not to be a "good European". There is this pervasive cognitive dissonance, this absurd and mendacious pretence that a "European"spirit and consciousness has destroyed national feelings. Ended war forever.

    That is why this immigration crisis is so shocking. Reality has rudely broken into the la la land. A million immigrants already in Europe with another million coming this year and the next because Europe's political class are impotent and clueless.

    The EU's leadership still keeps up the pretence as each nation nakedly acts in its narrow national interests, desperate not to take their fair share of the wretched and miserable to feed and house.

    Make it another country's problem but say you are "good Europeans " while you do it! Pretend you might join an absurd single currency when you know you never will because it would be an economic disaster. But you can't say that because the core Euro countries can't accept that the truth be spoken.

    That is European Union politics.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    It says a lot about the ludicrous looking glass world that is the European Union that they had to pretend in the first place. Why not be upfront and honest?

    Because that is not to be "communataire", not to be a "good European". There is this pervasive cognitive dissonance, this absurd and mendacious pretence that a "European"spirit and consciousness has destroyed national feelings. Ended war forever.

    That is why this immigration crisis is so shocking. Reality has rudely broken into the la la land. A million immigrants already in Europe with another million coming this year and the next because Europe's political class are impotent and clueless.

    The EU's leadership still keeps up the pretence as each nation nakedly acts in its narrow national interests, desperate not to take their fair share of the wretched and miserable to feed and house.
    .
    the migrant crisis is not an issue bourne out of the union - it is based on thefact that the southern outlier members nations cannot protect the external borders of the eu by themselves. the point was sometime ago suggested that there should be EU funded border patrols by land and sea - this is the only way to stem the flow from north africa and middle east where they are coming from. by UK leaving we will have no say on that , nor veto on possible additional new members ie turkey.

    the solution is not to leave the eu nor stay in and make no changes. it is to addres the migrant issue directly as part of the process of reform in the eu( which includes also tackling at source in turkey and libya btw) and record all those that come in to eu not simply let them wander free. and also practice more stringent checks on our borders. the reality is this has been going on for a year but so far just a few thousand have come to the uk
    but the phobia of immgiration is not the be all and end to make a decision that triggers a vast array of other economic , social and polticial upheaveals by cutting ourself off.
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    (Original post by Chakede)
    incorrect, it was only since uks opting in of 1990 Schengen Convention allowing implementation of the 90 day visa free visit, and by passing normal border control convnesions. And that was at a time with much less border sensitivities thant 2016.

    When I went to France in 1977 I didn't have a passport at all, let alone a visa. I travelled on a British Excursion Document. Belgium and the Netherlands also allowed passport free short trips from the UK

    Most countries in western Europe never required a visa for British tourists and most western European countries would allow entry on something called a British Visitors' Passport which you could buy at and carry away from a post-office including little sub-post-offices. The vast majority of British holidaymakers travelled on the British Excursion Document (France only), passport free (Belgium and Holland only) or British Visitors' Passport (about 20 European countries plus Canada) until 1996 (to none of which could visas be added).

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/w...c/20/passports
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    (Original post by Chakede)
    im talking with my 60 year old neighbour who recalls simply going over to calais on a ferry was a pain in the backside - its much easier and much more popular now
    Did he have a passport? If not, the reason he was doing more was that he was completing a form for a BED and producing his two photos at the ferry terminal. Try turning up at Dover today without a passport and see how easy it is to get to France.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    When I went to France in 1977 I didn't have a passport at all, let alone a visa. I travelled on a British Excursion Document. Belgium and the Netherlands also allowed passport free short trips from the UK

    Most countries in western Europe never required a visa for British tourists and most western European countries would allow entry on something called a British Visitors' Passport which you could buy at and carry away from a post-office including little sub-post-offices. The vast majority of British holidaymakers travelled on the British Excursion Document (France only), passport free (Belgium and Holland only) or British Visitors' Passport (about 20 European countries plus Canada) until 1996 (to none of which could visas be added).

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/w...c/20/passports
    what relevance is 1977 ie what makes you think leaving the eu will reset circumstances back 40 years. thats absolute nonesense-no one will let you travel with the same level of freedom as 40 years ago - and even then it wasnt as straightforward as you make it out to be. the fact is when we became part of the EU , travel within it by uk citizens sky rocketed for that very reason -far more than ever before pre-union. Hollande is already taking in veiled threats about controls at eurostar terminals if uk leaves .
    i dont agree with scare tactics of idiots like cameron & osbourne - nor do i agree with brainless claims that nothing will change and everything will be rosey after such a significant upheaval of eu exit.

    the reality is that everything will change - and there will be corrections to take place - some we can guess about, others we have no way of guessing.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    It says a lot about the ludicrous looking glass world that is the European Union that they had to pretend in the first place. Why not be upfront and honest?

    Because that is not to be "communataire", not to be a "good European". There is this pervasive cognitive dissonance, this absurd and mendacious pretence that a "European"spirit and consciousness has destroyed national feelings. Ended war forever.

    That is why this immigration crisis is so shocking. Reality has rudely broken into the la la land. A million immigrants already in Europe with another million coming this year and the next because Europe's political class are impotent and clueless.

    The EU's leadership still keeps up the pretence as each nation nakedly acts in its narrow national interests, desperate not to take their fair share of the wretched and miserable to feed and house.

    Make it another country's problem but say you are "good Europeans " while you do it! Pretend you might join an absurd single currency when you know you never will because it would be an economic disaster. But you can't say that because the core Euro countries can't accept that the truth be spoken.

    That is European Union politics.
    They aren't impotent. They were simply blindsided by Merkel last year. You can that as the snows clear, the fences are going up on the external border (excluding Greece that cannot be trusted).

    Europe was always supposed to have a strong external frontier but Schengen expanded so fast since 2004 that countries (a) didn't want to spend money on an external border that would pretty soon become an internal border and (b) didn't have the capacity to fence build quickly enough.
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    (Original post by Chakede)
    what relevance is 1977 ie what makes you think leaving the eu will reset circumstances back 40 years. thats absolute nonesense-no one will let you travel with the same level of freedom as 40 years ago - and even then it wasnt as straightforward as you make it out to be. the fact is when we became part of the EU , travel within it by uk citizens sky rocketed for that very reason -far more than ever before pre-union. Hollande is already taking in veiled threats about controls at eurostar terminals if uk leaves .
    i dont agree with scare tactics of idiots like david cameron - nor do i agree with brainless claims that nothing will change and everything will be rosey after such a significant upheaval of eu exit.

    the reality is that everything will change - and there will be corrections to take place - some we can guess about, others we have no way of guessing.
    The relevance of 1977 was that was the year I travelled without a passport.

    As I said previously there will not be any greater personal burdens on tourist travel within Europe if we leave than if we stay.

    The primary reasons for the growth of travel within the EU are not reducing burdens on personal travel. They are (1) the same economic reasons as for the growth of external tourism over the same period (2) the reduction in the bureaucracy of airline operations within Europe These will almost certainly incrementally increase if we leave. We will introduce some bit of red tape for very good reasons. The Dutch will introduce some different red tape for non-EU travel for equally good reasons. The French will introduce something else entirely, It won't go wrong on day 1 but it will gradually get worse. (3) increasing travel by intra-EU workers, holiday home owners, their families and friends. That is likely to fall if we leave. There will be more restrictions on UK residents in Europe and long term visitors.
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    Yea we won't be able to go on holiday in Europe because they don't like English money, they will kick out all the people in Spain to crash their housing economy too


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    (Original post by Chakede)
    what does that mean
    If we vote to leave, it doesn't mean we leave the EU straight away. We have to invoke article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which starts a 2 year process where the EU gives us a deal. During the two years, we are still in the EU. We can delay invoking article 50, to give more time for us to make free trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world.
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    (Original post by Chakede)
    Just aside for the moment the shock to the economy, the threat to UK based jobs, the new restrictions to trade with our biggest trading partner -

    what do you think about the biggest drawback of all - No more cheap, quick holidays over to europe - visas needed for eurostar., ibiza, kavos, prague amsterdam .
    I somehow doubt visas would be needed, not conducive to anybody

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    (Original post by paul514)
    Yea we won't be able to go on holiday in Europe because they don't like English money, they will kick out all the people in Spain to crash their housing economy too


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    have you ended up on this forum by accident? you sound a bit simple, excuse me for saying
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    have you ended up on this forum by accident? you sound a bit simple, excuse me for saying
    It's called sarcasm


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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Er, yeah. You might want to work on that a little bit.
    Spoiler:
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    Or put it in a spoiler that you were being sarcastic.
    I really didn't think anyone was dumb enough to take the comment seriously.

    Apologies


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    (Original post by Howard)
    So you have interviewed the heads of states of 27 countries and have deduced that some of them; Spain, the Czech Republic, amongst others are likely to introduce visa requirements because of the hassle and mess caused by British bachelor parties? No; of course you haven't. So shut your pie hole and keep your infantile speculations to yourself.

    Idiot? LOL! I've probably got more university degrees than you have A levels my brave little friend. I've almost certainly more letters after my name than you have in your name. I'm also much better read, worldly wise, and have a much higher IQ than you do.

    (And I'm in business myself. Real business. Your experience on a paper round doesn't count)

    Now run along. Don't you have some Geography homework to finish?
    That is incredibly rude and very patronising.

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    (Original post by Katty3)
    That is incredibly rude and very patronising.

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    So cry me a river.
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    (Original post by paul514)
    I really didn't think anyone was dumb enough to take the comment seriously.Posted from TSR Mobile
    Remember where you are.
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    (Original post by Chakede)
    the migrant crisis is not an issue bourne out of the union - it is based on thefact that the southern outlier members nations cannot protect the external borders of the eu by themselves. the point was sometime ago suggested that there should be EU funded border patrols by land and sea - this is the only way to stem the flow from north africa and middle east where they are coming from. by UK leaving we will have no say on that , nor veto on possible additional new members ie turkey.

    the solution is not to leave the eu nor stay in and make no changes. it is to addres the migrant issue directly as part of the process of reform in the eu( which includes also tackling at source in turkey and libya btw) and record all those that come in to eu not simply let them wander free. and also practice more stringent checks on our borders. the reality is this has been going on for a year but so far just a few thousand have come to the uk
    but the phobia of immgiration is not the be all and end to make a decision that triggers a vast array of other economic , social and polticial upheaveals by cutting ourself off.
    The migrant crisis in its current scale would not exist vis a vis Europe if there were no border less Schengen area. It is an issue totally born out of the union.

    If you deserve evidence for this consider how borders are now being erected. This is the only way the crisis will be solved. If the immigrants can't move across to get to Sweden, Germany and the U.K. they won't come in the first place. Why risk your life to get stuck in a camp in Greece when you can stay in a camp in Turkey instead?

    Destroying Schengen will not SOLVE the crisis exactly, it will still be a humanitarian catastrophe. But it will stop it being the current crisis it is from a selfish " European" point of view.

    And if there is no Schengen what remains of Europe? It is just a protectionist trade area. Keep that, tear up the rest of the bureaucratic gravy train of nonsense.

    Sorted.
 
 
 
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