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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    True, which is why getting women to realise that they are not second class citizens should lead to them questioning their religious texts which should lead to them questioning their entire belief system. That will really be something, when 50% of the religious population say "hang on, I no longer agree with this text based on the false things it says about me...why should I therefore believe in any of it!!"
    Unfortunately, this is less common than one would think. Especially in places such as America where creationism is taught over evolution
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    (Original post by chemting)
    I thought women having free expression and free thought is considered patriarchal heresy according to triggered Tumblrist?

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    According to Tumblr we live in The Handmaid's Tale or something.
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    (Original post by TheOpinion)
    According to Tumblr we live in The Handmaid's Tale or something.
    I have no idea
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    (Original post by TheOpinion)
    According to Tumblr we live in The Handmaid's Tale or something.
    Considering they want a totalitarian matriarchal theocracy, I suspect there might be an awful lot of projection going on.
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    (Original post by YesAllMen)
    ...





    (Original post by scrappy-coco)

    ...`
    You should read some Wittgenstein; he was largely responsible for the destruction of logical positivism of the 20th century (or so.. hasn't reached TSR yet)
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    (Original post by The Assassin)






    You should read some Wittgenstein; he was largely responsible for the destruction of logical positivism of the 20th century (or so.. hasn't reached TSR yet)
    Haha See my earlier posts where in response to this kind of debate I describe myself as a 'Wittgenstein fan'.
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    (Original post by Sciatic)
    Have any of you had a dream in which religious symbols appeared or were thought of?
    No. But I have dreamt about being in heaven.
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    Religion is the opium of the people
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Overall would you say you are optimistic about the future of secularism then?
    One thing I forgot to mention is the effect of a rising middle class in China (and India to a lesser extent). They are rapidly gaining shares in the global consumer market, and is likely to exceed the American middle class as the dominant consumer market in the world (I am in no way an expert on this and have zero experience of working with global markets, maybe leavingthecity can provide some input). However, I think they will have a big impact on the religious institutions and the way religion is structured.

    You are right in saying there is a rise in Christianity in places like South Korea and this could have an effect, but again I don't see this as seeping through to education (something South Koreans value) and government.

    Although the majority of the Chinese population have no religion (and the religion they do follow are less dogmatic like Buddhism/Hinduism/Protestant), the Chinese culture also involves a decent amount of tradition and orthodoxy. So the traditional nature of the culture will affect global consumerism (and hence global institutions and religious institutions), but in terms of secularism I think educated Chinese and Indian cultures value it (this is secularism and not religion in itself) and will want religion out of government.

    However, on the other side, there is a rise of Muslims families and their consumerism (for e.g. the Halal industry is estimated to reach about $2 Trillion). The biggest worry, however, is the Saudi-backed Islamic banks (more prominently ISDB/IDB) making all sorts of investments in return of people supporting Islam and the Shariah. Most recently, the well-funded Muslim Brotherhood (allegedly financed by IDB) tried to change the constitution of Egypt to make it more "Islamic" and they got into power by promising all sorts of investments and money into their country. This is very worrying from a secular point of view, but it is important to remember that Saudi is heavily subsidised by the oil industry which can be very volatile.
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    (Original post by chemting)
    One thing I forgot to mention is the effect of a rising middle class in China (and India to a lesser extent). They are rapidly gaining shares in the global consumer market, and is likely to exceed the American middle class as the dominant consumer market in the world (I am in no way an expert on this and have zero experience of working with global markets, maybe leavingthecity can provide some input). However, I think they will have a big impact on the religious institutions and the way religion is structured.

    You are right in saying there is a rise in Christianity in places like South Korea and this could have an effect, but again I don't see this as seeping through to education (something South Koreans value) and government.

    Although the majority of the Chinese population have no religion (and the religion they do follow are less dogmatic like Buddhism/Hinduism/Protestant), the Chinese culture also involves a decent amount of tradition and orthodoxy. So the traditional nature of the culture will affect global consumerism (and hence global institutions and religious institutions), but in terms of secularism I think educated Chinese and Indian cultures value it (this is secularism and not religion in itself) and will want religion out of government.

    However, on the other side, there is a rise of Muslims families and their consumerism (for e.g. the Halal industry is estimated to reach about $2 Trillion). The biggest worry, however, is the Saudi-backed Islamic banks (more prominently ISDB/IDB) making all sorts of investments in return of people supporting Islam and the Shariah. Most recently, the well-funded Muslim Brotherhood (allegedly financed by IDB) tried to change the constitution of Egypt to make it more "Islamic" and they got into power by promising all sorts of investments and money into their country. This is very worrying from a secular point of view, but it is important to remember that Saudi is heavily subsidised by the oil industry which can be very volatile.
    I'm still my sure what effect that would have; the growth of consumer markets in these countries. Though as more people become middle class and educated and more distracted as a consumer , you'd think they would become more secular....
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    (Original post by leavingthecity)
    I'm still my sure what effect that would have; the growth of consumer markets in these countries. Though as more people become middle class and educated and more distracted as a consumer , you'd think they would become more secular....
    There obviously isn't a direct link. However, it may affect the institutions and mainstream religion always have this smarmy characteristic of "seeping through" into institutions (specially education and political ones). One may hope they become more secular as they become more educated.
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    (Original post by chemting)
    Although the majority of the Chinese population have no religion (and the religion they do follow are less dogmatic like Buddhism/Hinduism/Protestant), the Chinese culture also involves a decent amount of tradition and orthodoxy. So the traditional nature of the culture will affect global consumerism (and hence global institutions and religious institutions), but in terms of secularism I think educated Chinese and Indian cultures value it (this is secularism and not religion in itself) and will want religion out of government.
    From what I understand, statistics are quite hard to come by in terms of the Christian population in China, but it does seem to be increasing. Whether this trend will continue is something we will have to wait and see. But in 2011, PEW placed the figure at about 67 million.
    http://www.pewforum.org/files/2011/1...yAppendixC.pdf

    As for India, the Muslim population there is growing quite fast and India is soon predicted to overtake Indonesia as the country with the largest Muslim population. I feel that a rise in the Muslim population may give more rise to Hinduism nationalism as a mean to countering the growth in the Muslim population.

    But obviously this is all speculation.


    However, on the other side, there is a rise of Muslims families and their consumerism (for e.g. the Halal industry is estimated to reach about $2 Trillion). The biggest worry, however, is the Saudi-backed Islamic banks (more prominently ISDB/IDB) making all sorts of investments in return of people supporting Islam and the Shariah. Most recently, the well-funded Muslim Brotherhood (allegedly financed by IDB) tried to change the constitution of Egypt to make it more "Islamic" and they got into power by promising all sorts of investments and money into their country. This is very worrying from a secular point of view, but it is important to remember that Saudi is heavily subsidised by the oil industry which can be very volatile.
    I really think we need to be doing more to counter this Saudi influenced Islam. I can't see us replacing oil any time soon so Saudi money is going to remain, but maybe we should try investing in a more Western based Islam. Currently, many mosques in Britain and funded by Wahhabi and Salafi influenced groups from the Middle East. And whoever funds the mosque obviously has control over what is preached. Austria has already introduced laws to limit foreign funding of mosques, and I think we could follow their lead. Now, obviously if we cut foreign funding, the funding for mosques, imam etc... has to come from somewhere. This is probably quite controversial, but I imagine this funding would have to come from the tax payers pockets which might not be popular. But, ultimately, we need to stop the spread of these more extreme interpretations of Islam.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Now, obviously if we cut foreign funding, the funding for mosques, imam etc... has to come from somewhere. This is probably quite controversial, but I imagine this funding would have to come from the tax payers pockets which might not be popular.
    It wouldn't. Not least because the funding for no other religion comes from taxpayers. All clergy are for paid by their own church, funded by the religion's adherents or by church investments.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It wouldn't. Not least because the funding for no other religion comes from taxpayers. All clergy are for paid by their own church, funded by the religion's adherents or by church investments.
    If we were to cut foreign funding, I can see that causing some issues. Some might perceive it as an attempt to prevent mosques from being built. Hence why I feel some alternative would need to be offered to show that the intention is not to prevent mosques being built or imams being trained, but rather specifically to counter the influence of Wahhabi and Salafi influenced Islam.

    The fact is that if we did adopt such a policy, and were to be consistent, we would also have to prevent foreign funding for Churches, Temples etc... But there doesn't seem to be as much of an issue there in regards to the groups providing the funding. But if we are to continue to permit foreign funding for other groups, then that would justify the absence of support from government, as there are plenty of sources for funding for these other groups. If we are going to cut a major source of funding, we need to ensure that it doesn't create further issues.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    If we were to cut foreign funding, I can see that causing some issues. Some might perceive it as an attempt to prevent mosques from being built. Hence why I feel some alternative would need to be offered to show that the intention is not to prevent mosques being built or imams being trained, but rather specifically to counter the influence of Wahhabi and Salafi influenced Islam.

    The fact is that if we did adopt such a policy, and were to be consistent, we would also have to prevent foreign funding for Churches, Temples etc... But there doesn't seem to be as much of an issue there in regards to the groups providing the funding. But if we are to continue to permit foreign funding for other groups, then that would justify the absence of support from government, as there are plenty of sources for funding for these other groups. If we are going to cut a major source of funding, we need to ensure that it doesn't create further issues.
    It is simple: ban foreign funding for all religious institutions, all political parties and all schools that don't have at least 75% expatriate pupils. The less foreign interference we have in our domestic politics and the smaller the foreign contribution to superstitious beliefs (which would wither on the vine if left alone) the better.
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    (Original post by TheOpinion)
    I hope so. However, as long as we have religious texts we will have disillusionment.
    As long as the human species exists, we will always lie to ourselves to lend the sense of purpose that grants us the will to carry on living a meaningless life. If it's not religious texts, it'll be something else.
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    Since most Christians have sex and do drugs, why do they look on us atheists on being bad people?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It is simple: ban foreign funding for all religious institutions, all political parties and all schools that don't have at least 75% expatriate pupils. The less foreign interference we have in our domestic politics and the smaller the foreign contribution to superstitious beliefs (which would wither on the vine if left alone) the better.
    I'm not sure how viable that is in such a globalised world. I mean, the influx on Africans and Arabs keeps Christianity and Islam alive in the UK alone. I think immigration even stopped the falling church attendances and they have levelled out. This isn't the same as foreign economic support, but then foreign influence on religion in the UK was always more than economic.

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It is simple: ban foreign funding for all religious institutions, all political parties and all schools that don't have at least 75% expatriate pupils. The less foreign interference we have in our domestic politics and the smaller the foreign contribution to superstitious beliefs (which would wither on the vine if left alone) the better.
    Though I do agree with you here, do you not think that will be difficult? I imagine a lot of big organisations such as the Catholic Church would oppose this.

    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    I'm not sure how viable that is in such a globalised world. I mean, the influx on Africans and Arabs keeps Christianity and Islam alive in the UK alone. I think immigration even stopped the falling church attendances and they have levelled out. This isn't the same as foreign economic support, but then foreign influence on religion in the UK was always more than economic.

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    From what I understand, Good Bloke is continuing on from the point I made about foreign funding, and not about immigration.
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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)
    I mean, the influx on Africans and Arabs keeps Christianity and Islam alive in the UK alone. I think immigration even stopped the falling church attendances and they have levelled out
    That is a good reason for ending immigration then, as well as foreign religious funding. Why would we want to keep Christianity and Islam alive in the UK? Roll on a secular Britain.
 
 
 
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