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    How have we "lost sovereignty" if the members of our Government (i.e: MP's) sit on the EU Council (to propose laws) and our MEP's (Remember them?) vote to pass laws?

    Our parliament's bills can be overturned due to the EU.

    [b]

    Greece did not vote against democracy. Greece voted against austerity.

    That's what I said, right? If I didn't it was a mistake, long day

    [b]

    We need to accept the reality that without the EU, we are now a bit part player in the world.

    Without the EU, instead of being a country in the EU, we will be seen as a country with the 4th best army, 5th best economy and 2nd most political influence.

    Yes, we may have a seat at the UNSC, our allies may be superpowers but we are useful to no-one on the outside.

    You forgot about NATO

    In this new world order, instead of taking lead and influencing the direction of the EU, we have dithered because of the Empire hangover.

    Gl controlling the direction of the EU

    [b]

    In any type of business or trade, leverage is key and if we were to leave the EU (which is the largest trading bloc in the world), we would retain hardly any leverage.

    We can still trade freely with the EU if we leave, combine our economy with the 2nd largest political influence, that combined with our status as a huge consumer we will get a trade deal.
    [b]

    What does Rotherham have to do with the EU?

    He was talking about borders, so I mentioned how a controlled border could stop/reduces these cases. This is, of course, only possible outside of the EU.
    [b]

    Around 10% of the UK's population, contribute to 25% of the UK's GDP.

    Those 10% also happen to reside in a city which is the most diverse on Earth and they succeed not because the UK has a strict quota system in place (like America or Australia), but because it's a variant of the "American dream" where there is the possibility that anyone can make it big, regardless of whether you are a banker or an immigrant.

    That's why I would have an immigration which didn't discriminate based upon where you are from, and which didn't allow serious criminials in. Unless you want the criminals and those who do not contribute what is wrong with this?
    [b]

    Yes, some policies proposed and implemented by the EU have had mishaps but to base a case for exit because we didn't get Haddock caught by British fisherman is ridiculous.
    That's over 100,000 jobs lost. Just so you know.
    [b]

    Our steel industry would perish to the availability of cheap Chinese steel, as happened not too long ago.
    Outside of the EU, we can make tariffs.

    Manufacturing, farming and fishing would not profit because these industries make up around 25% of all jobs, and are currently being kept afloat with subsidiaries both from the UK Government and the EU.

    However, the increased trade with the rest of world would exceed that loss.

    We are a service orientated country and we rely quite heavily on the free movement of workers, from one EU country to the next, in order be successful. The enthusiasm with which those from outside the UK have to leave mainland Europe is not corresponding with the native Brits.

    There's nothing wrong with a few border checks to stop criminals, who at the moment can come into the UK. Unless you want the criminals this is a better system.

    [b]

    But we do have a voice.

    When your electorate votes 20% of your allocated MEP's based on their anti-EU stance, then that serves no bloody purpose. You need MEP's who participate, not those who use it as a form of protest voting.[/QUOTE]
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    (Original post by balanced)
    Our parliament's bills can be overturned due to the EU.
    Incorrect. Parliament has, can and will still be able to legislate in any area that they see fit.

    There will be no overturn of bills by the EU.

    That's what I said, right? If I didn't it was a mistake, long day
    That's okay but in any event, and as much as I dislike the harsh terms imposed on Athens, that was not strictly down to the EU.

    Without the EU, instead of being a country in the EU, we will be seen as a country with the 4th best army, 5th best economy and 2nd most political influence.
    That will remain the same upon immediate exit of the EU.

    But how long before we start sliding down the pole because we sure as hell won't climb up the pole?

    You forgot about NATO

    Gl controlling the direction of the EU
    NATO has nothing to do with the EU.

    We can still trade freely with the EU if we leave, combine our economy with the 2nd largest political influence, that combined with our status as a huge consumer we will get a trade deal.
    Oh, I don't doubt that we could get a trade deal but at the risk of giving away our underdrawers, which I suppose is better than nothing.

    Also, individually negotiated trade deals would make it much much harder for small firms to sell to a single market which has standardised tariffs. Ergo, more red tape.

    He was talking about borders, so I mentioned how a controlled border could stop/reduces these cases. This is, of course, only possible outside of the EU.
    Pakistan was never and will never be part of the EU, let alone Europe.

    That's why I would have an immigration which didn't discriminate based upon where you are from, and which didn't allow serious criminials in. Unless you want the criminals and those who do not contribute what is wrong with this?
    Because only accepting highly skilled people does not create that much of a growth compared to an entrepreneur, who may be a lowly cleaner.

    Highly skilled people are effectively managers in the sense that they keep things ticking over. The real growth, in terms of jobs and wealth, is someone who starts from nothing and builds up something.

    That's over 100,000 jobs lost. Just so you know.
    That's ridiculous. In the 1930's, there were only 47,000 fishermen.

    How can we lose more than double the amount of fishermen that we had in the 1930's?

    Outside of the EU, we can make tariffs.
    What tariffs? We cannot dictate how much China sells it's steel to Europe for.

    We can only dictate what we sell to Europe for and as highlighted by the recent dumps of steel, we are really noncompetitive.

    However, the increased trade with the rest of world would exceed that loss.
    How would it when it will become infinitely more difficult to give us preferential access to markets?

    There's nothing wrong with a few border checks to stop criminals, who at the moment can come into the UK. Unless you want the criminals this is a better system.
    What? Abandoning a market where roughly 50% of our imports and exports come and go to for our delusions of grandeur that we still matter on the world stage?

    The fall of the ex-Soviet bloc wasn't down to the fact that their ideology was bad but because they ran out of money to keep their satellite countries on side.

    The failure of small businesses isn't down to a lack profits, but down to a lack of cash for which to continue trading.

    You need cash to be player in the global market and shutting us out of the single biggest market will be disastrous, short-term and crippling in the long-term.
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    TheArtofProtest

    Parliament has, can and will still be able to legislate in any area that they see fit.

    There will be no overturn of bills by the EU.
    There has been and it will continue. Factortame made our bill useless.



    That's okay but in any event, and as much as I dislike the harsh terms imposed on Athens, that was not strictly down to the EU.
    That's alright then hey


    That will remain the same upon immediate exit of the EU.

    But how long before we start sliding down the pole because we sure as hell won't climb up the pole?
    Wow your pessimism is bad right now.


    NATO has nothing to do with the EU.
    It does indirectly, the existence of NATO negates the argument that the EU is essential for our military.



    Pakistan was never and will never be part of the EU, let alone Europe.
    Did I mention it?


    Because only accepting highly skilled people does not create that much of a growth compared to an entrepreneur, who may be a lowly cleaner.
    I never said we should only accept highly skilled people only. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
    Highly skilled people are effectively managers in the sense that they keep things ticking over. The real growth, in terms of jobs and wealth, is someone who starts from nothing and builds up something.
    Exactly, and criminals are not that type of person, in general, and you can't control that whilst we are in the EU.


    That's ridiculous. In the 1930's, there were only 47,000 fishermen.

    How can we lose more than double the amount of fishermen that we had in the 1930's?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...bn-a-year.html



    What tariffs? We cannot dictate how much China sells it's steel to Europe for.
    EXACTLY! We can't, so, we have to leave so that we can dictate the tariffs concerning the UK.

    We can only dictate what we sell to Europe for and as highlighted by the recent dumps of steel, we are really noncompetitive.
    We can use tariffs on imported Chinese steel to make our steel competative in the UK.






    What? Abandoning a market where roughly 50% of our imports and exports come and go to for our delusions of grandeur that we still matter on the world stage?
    I said we wouldn't abandon them, no would they abandon us, read.

    The fall of the ex-Soviet bloc wasn't down to the fact that their ideology was bad but because they ran out of money to keep their satellite countries on side.
    Because their ideology was bad, duh.

    The failure of small businesses isn't down to a lack profits, but down to a lack of cash for which to continue trading.
    Which is caused by 'red tape'

    You need cash to be player in the global market and shutting us out of the single biggest market will be disastrous, short-term and crippling in the long-term.
    Exactly, that's why we should leave. We don't want to shut ourselves off from all the other countries which equate to a larger market than the EU, to us.
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    What about Turkey joining EU? lunacy. EU you would think would be about bringing Europeans together after WW2, instead it destroys European people.

    Turkey is not, and never will be a European country. Look at what is going on in Turkey right now and their history of aggression and even slavery against European people.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    This myth propagated by the Leave campaign that we have no voice in Europe is ludicrous.

    Our elected officials (Government Ministers + MEP's) give us a voice in the EU Council and the EU Parliament respectively.

    The failure of the leave campaigners to educate themselves about the processes of the EU and the institutions of the EU is shocking. When I hear arguments like "we don't have a voice", I feel like banging my head against a wall.
    I'm well aware of how it works. I'm just saying that the voice of our tiny island is likely to be drowned out by the rest of Europe. If you look at the ratio of british to mainland European population you'll see what I mean.
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    (Original post by R3D KING)
    What about Turkey joining EU? lunacy. EU you would think would be about bringing Europeans together after WW2, instead it destroys European people.

    Turkey is not, and never will be a European country. Look at what is going on in Turkey right now and their history of aggression and even slavery against European people.
    Tbh You can look at what happened in France as well.

    I understand what you're saying, but if the principal objectives of the union are economic, then it stands to reason to accept Turkey. It would enlarge the market.

    Though politically I'm not sure it would be best accept Turkey.
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    (Original post by Prajna)
    Ok. But incentives could be manipulated to curb immigration. Such as, have to be a resident for a certain amount of years before you can apply for a job or set up your business, or rent a house etc...
    none of which would be legal, god thanks.
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    (Original post by simon_g)
    none of which would be legal, god thanks.
    Yes of course, but it was just to demonstrate that it's simply false that the UK cannot curb immigration without leaving the EU.
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    See my posts on the EU for something approaching a pretty decent answer. Benefits lie primarily in constitutional, social, and economic domains :yy:
 
 
 
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