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    (Original post by Peace4life)
    The problem is that public and NHS do not value pharmacist as much as they value other healthcare professionals. This has meant that NHS look into pharmacy first to make any sort of cuts.
    Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

    Truth be told, Pharmacists are the spare gear of the NHS - while we certainly do have value, you could still cut us out and still be left with a functioning system. Pre-NHS, Pharmacists were small business owners, making up and selling medical treatments to treat minor ailments. With the advent of the NHS, we were integrated into system, not just to check prescriptions, but to also continue the service of making up creams, dilutions, balms, etc. If there was an alternative formulation required, we would be the first port of call; that was the true niche we filled, being the experts on drugs was just a pleasant bonus.

    However, all of that stuff has been moved over to the industry side of things - you will never, and I mean never, be expected to formulate something yourself, instead, you would ring up a manufacturer and have it made up there and delivered. One of the skills which made us essential has become entirely redundant, I'm afraid to say.

    Now, after a few years of us twiddling our thumbs and only checking prescriptions, the NHS actually sat up and taking notice - who are these people and why are they providing such **** value for money? What can we do to fix that? While the NHS is certainly very noble in its attempts to give us new roles, very little of what we've been assigned is unique. MURs? Doctors frequently will check up on their patients and ensure they are on the correct therapy for them. Flu jabs? While certainly very useful in easing direct demand on the NHS, vaccinations are something most nurses are trained to do. Emergency contraception? Again, great that we are making this more and more readily avaliable, but Nurses are perfectly capable of assessing and counselling women who need it. Travel health? Fine if you live in a rural area, but in some places, the NHS has set up specific travel health clinics, thus making the humble pharmacist somewhat redundant. Checking up on blue-script patients? Sure, we're probably the only ones who can make sure these patients are actually taking their methadone, but - to be blunt - the people at the specialized clinics are going to have far more time to monitor their wellbeing and provide the much needed counselling and encouragement - time we simply do not have, I'll add.

    I could go on, but you get the picture. Now, I will admit that we have a few strong areas, namely the treatment of minor ailments OTC, however, if you consider our education level (5 years of training) and pay grade, we simply do not represent value for money, hence why rainfire is falling on community pharmacy at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I think it is brilliant how Pharmacists are taking on a huge variety of roles and easing burden on the NHS, but aside from being the fall-people for medication errors, we do not offer anything unique. A lot of the services we provide are expendable.

    Despite this however, we live in an age where more pharmacists are being trained than ever, despite a falling need for the services we provide. I know this is an unpleasant thought, especially to those already enrolled on the degree, but you will not be as valued as you imagine.
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    Does the Brexit mean, that EU pharmacists dont have uncontrolled rights to work here?

    If they go through the same English and competence/law assessments as non EU pharmacists then hopefully the demand for British pharmacists may go up = higher locum rates and salaries?
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    (Original post by sachinisgod)
    Does the Brexit mean, that EU pharmacists dont have uncontrolled rights to work here?

    If they go through the same English and competence/law assessments as non EU pharmacists then hopefully the demand for British pharmacists may go up = higher locum rates and salaries?
    No idea on what will actually be involved but most likely points based system. If anything trained pharmacists from inside or outside the EU will have no problems from coming. It's going to open up professional jobs to more people. But they might set a quota on how many they are willing to accept.
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    No idea on what will actually be involved but most likely points based system. If anything trained pharmacists from inside or outside the EU will have no problems from coming. It's going to open up professional jobs to more people. But they might set a quota on how many they are willing to accept.
    No but there has to be *control dont you think? *Australia and NZ advise that pharmacists are not on the demand list of skilled occupations anymore as they are oversubscribed.

    There is a much higher supply of pharmacists in the UK than the demand so we should look to limit and have a quota of foreign pharmacy graduates working here. **
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    honestly im glad ive put one person off and gladly wouldnt want even my enemy to make the same mistake trust me im not being over dramatic , this job this proffesion is as much as a failure as joe harts donut fingers
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    Sorry, post messed up and I can't fix it. If a mod could delete this, that would be great. Reposting now...
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    http://www.totaljobs.com/JobSeeking/...st_job65933776

    +screenshot, to make sure this is preserved in the thralls of time -

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Views: 389
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    Yep. With 5+ years of training, you too can command the princely sum of £12 an hour! Okay, I do recognize that this salary rate is very much a rare exception, and not the rule, but I wanted to demonstrate that there are places that are willing to pay a Pharmacist even less than what a manager would earn. Seriously, I just looked up the pay grade of a graduate scheme Aldi Manager and, accounting for the number of hours worked in a year, it's £21.88. Plus you get an Aldi company car. Plus life insurance. Plus private healthcare. Oh yeah, and after four years, your salary will have risen to £72,000 - although, for full-disclosure, it is 50 hrs/week with little flexibility.

    https://www.aldirecruitment.co.uk/graduate/

    Or, if that isn't for you, you could just be a bog-standard store manager. It pays about the same as the graduate starting salary (although, less benefits and salary increase too).

    Hopefully this should help put the pay situation into a slightly more concrete perspective...
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    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    http://www.totaljobs.com/JobSeeking/...st_job65933776

    +screenshot, to make sure this is preserved in the thralls of time -

    Name:  pharmie2.png
Views: 389
Size:  99.6 KB

    Yep. With 5+ years of training, you too can command the princely sum of £12 an hour! Okay, I do recognize that this salary rate is very much a rare exception, and not the rule, but I wanted to demonstrate that there are places that are willing to pay a Pharmacist even less than what a manager would earn. Seriously, I just looked up the pay grade of a graduate scheme Aldi Manager and, accounting for the number of hours worked in a year, it's £21.88. Plus you get an Aldi company car. Plus life insurance. Plus private healthcare. Oh yeah, and after four years, your salary will have risen to £72,000 - although, for full-disclosure, it is 50 hrs/week with little flexibility.

    https://www.aldirecruitment.co.uk/graduate/

    Or, if that isn't for you, you could just be a bog-standard store manager. It pays about the same as the graduate starting salary (although, less benefits and salary increase too).

    Hopefully this should help put the pay situation into a slightly more concrete perspective...
    I might get stick for it but hey i call spade a spade so,

    The reason the pharmacies can get away with paying pittance per hour is due to the uncontrolled amount of EU pharmacists that can come here and theoretically work for half the per hour rate than British Pharmacists used to work ( and it will still be more than what they get in Eastern Europe). We have to stop this madness if we want to stop the big multiple chains exploiting pharmacists with bad salaries.
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    (Original post by sachinisgod)
    I might get stick for it but hey i call spade a spade so,

    The reason the pharmacies can get away with paying pittance per hour is due to the uncontrolled amount of EU pharmacists that can come here and theoretically work for half the per hour rate than British Pharmacists used to work ( and it will still be more than what they get in Eastern Europe). We have to stop this madness if we want to stop the big multiple chains exploiting pharmacists with bad salaries.
    While there is truth to that, I think Brexit's effect on Pharmacy is akin to closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Schools still are (and will be) churning out graduates at high rates - regardless of where you are from, when you are choosing between unemployment and **** pay, yeah, there may be a time when £12/hr starts to look mighty appealing. Still, I find it plausible that Brexit will improve the situation, but I'm doubtful that it will fix it - you will still be paid similar (or even more) to sit around in an Aldi, and that's the sad truth. Wages will only stop going down; they will not go back up.

    I am not an expert on immigration however, so if anyone has any figures that indicates a bulk of Pharmacists entering the workforce are from the EU (or vice versa), that would be fairly interesting.

    Theoretically, I would also posset that if Brexit plunges the UK into a recession - as many economics experts are predicting - any halted decrease in salary might be negated by the value of the pound falling? I mean, we'll keep our profession's financial standing, sure, but within an economy which has been royally ****ed. I hope that doesn't happen, desperately, I do, but I think we still need to entertain it as a possibility.

    ...I am also not an economist though, so take the above with a hefty pinch of salt.

    Also, as a matter of full disclosure, I have my sights set on a career in research, so you aren't going to convince me that Brexit is good for my job prospects, regardless of what happens to Pharmacy.
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    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    While there is truth to that, I think Brexit's effect on Pharmacy is akin to closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Schools still are (and will be) churning out graduates at high rates - regardless of where you are from, when you are choosing between unemployment and **** pay, yeah, there may be a time when £12/hr starts to look mighty appealing. Still, I find it plausible that Brexit will improve the situation, but I'm doubtful that it will fix it - you will still be paid similar (or even more) to sit around in an Aldi, and that's the sad truth. Wages will only stop going down; they will not go back up.

    I am not an expert on immigration however, so if anyone has any figures that indicates a bulk of Pharmacists entering the workforce are from the EU (or vice versa), that would be fairly interesting.

    Theoretically, I would also posset that if Brexit plunges the UK into a recession - as many economics experts are predicting - any halted decrease in salary might be negated by the value of the pound falling? I mean, we'll keep our profession's financial standing, sure, but within an economy which has been royally ****ed. I hope that doesn't happen, desperately, I do, but I think we still need to entertain it as a possibility.

    ...I am also not an economist though, so take the above with a hefty pinch of salt.

    Also, as a matter of full disclosure, I have my sights set on a career in research, so you aren't going to convince me that Brexit is good for my job prospects, regardless of what happens to Pharmacy.
    I think its the matter of logic.

    By leaving the EU,

    1. If EU students will not able to get subsidised student finance to do the degree and they have to pay the same amount as someone from a Non EU student ( international rate) then it will reduce the number of pharmacy students at universities. This is because of the availability of loans from the government has allowed in a such a large number of EU students in our universities.

    2. If EU pharmacists want to work here and they are subject to the same process ( which is long and expensive) as non EU pharmacists then there is a probability that atleast half of them wont be able to practice here due to their lack of English skills or their lack of clinical knowledge ( if tested)

    Both of these scenarios mean over a period of 3/4 years the oversupply of pharmacists will level out to the demand actually required and this means salaries can go up as there isnt an oversupply of pharmacists willing to work for peanuts.
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    (Original post by sachinisgod)
    I think its the matter of logic.

    By leaving the EU,

    1. If EU students will not able to get subsidised student finance to do the degree and they have to pay the same amount as someone from a Non EU student ( international rate) then it will reduce the number of pharmacy students at universities. This is because of the availability of loans from the government has allowed in a such a large number of EU students in our universities.

    2. If EU pharmacists want to work here and they are subject to the same process ( which is long and expensive) as non EU pharmacists then there is a probability that atleast half of them wont be able to practice here due to their lack of English skills or their lack of clinical knowledge ( if tested)

    Both of these scenarios mean over a period of 3/4 years the oversupply of pharmacists will level out to the demand actually required and this means salaries can go up as there isnt an oversupply of pharmacists willing to work for peanuts.
    I agree that leaving tmeans that we will see less students from the EU - training here would be less financially viable, after all - but I don't see how that translates to less students overall.

    Universities are businesses at the end of the day, and if EU students aren't taking up seats, they will find UK nationals to take their place. I can't speak for other schools, but UEA has AAB entry requirements, ergo the course is in demand enough to commandeer top grades (for a more extreme example, see medicine). And if seats aren't being filled? Admissions need only lower the entry requirements, thus maximising the number of people paying £9,000/yr. Regardless of whether we stay or leave the EU, the number of Pharmacy places isn't going to change much.

    *coughs*ThanksALotLackOfStudentC ap*coughs*

    And yep, I agree that leaving would mean we'd see less EU Pharmacists entering our job market - what I am unconvinced of is the precise impact that will have. Again, totally plausible that it would make a difference, but the issues we are seeing in Pharmacy are multifaceted: It isn't just EU migrants, it's the shift of community Pharmacy from a care-focused to corporate-focused environment, a boom in student numbers, loss of NHS funding, and our profound lack of a clear role outside of checking prescriptions.

    If I wanted to point to the obvious culprit, that would be the number of Pharmacy schools trebling over a very short timeframe - no job market could ever adequately adjust itself to such a drastic shift in supply-demand. In light of that, I am not sure as to what proportion of Pharmacists entering the job market are newly-qualified and which are EU migrants; again, if someone actually has the data, they would be interesting to see.

    If I were being generous, I would say that stopping EU-based Pharmacists from working here could help to level out supply/demand for jobs, but I am unconvinced that it would solve the issue entirely - as you are claiming. I know it's much easier to boil the problems in Pharmacy down to a single issue - where one entity is clearly the problem, therefore, if we stop X we can solve Y - but we have to recognize the profession is being attacked from multiple fronts, each responsible to varying extents.

    We wouldn't be doing ourselves any favours, otherwise.
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    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    I agree that leaving tmeans that we will see less students from the EU - training here would be less financially viable, after all - but I don't see how that translates to less students overall.

    Universities are businesses at the end of the day, and if EU students aren't taking up seats, they will find UK nationals to take their place. I can't speak for other schools, but UEA has AAB entry requirements, ergo the course is in demand enough to commandeer top grades (for a more extreme example, see medicine). And if seats aren't being filled? Admissions need only lower the entry requirements, thus maximising the number of people paying £9,000/yr. Regardless of whether we stay or leave the EU, the number of Pharmacy places isn't going to change much.

    *coughs*ThanksALotLackOfStudentC ap*coughs*

    And yep, I agree that leaving would mean we'd see less EU Pharmacists entering our job market - what I am unconvinced of is the precise impact that will have. Again, totally plausible that it would make a difference, but the issues we are seeing in Pharmacy are multifaceted: It isn't just EU migrants, it's the shift of community Pharmacy from a care-focused to corporate-focused environment, a boom in student numbers, loss of NHS funding, and our profound lack of a clear role outside of checking prescriptions.

    If I wanted to point to the obvious culprit, that would be the number of Pharmacy schools trebling over a very short timeframe - no job market could ever adequately adjust itself to such a drastic shift in supply-demand. In light of that, I am not sure as to what proportion of Pharmacists entering the job market are newly-qualified and which are EU migrants; again, if someone actually has the data, they would be interesting to see.

    If I were being generous, I would say that stopping EU-based Pharmacists from working here could help to level out supply/demand for jobs, but I am unconvinced that it would solve the issue entirely - as you are claiming. I know it's much easier to boil the problems in Pharmacy down to a single issue - where one entity is clearly the problem, therefore, if we stop X we can solve Y - but we have to recognize the profession is being attacked from multiple fronts, each responsible to varying extents.

    We wouldn't be doing ourselves any favours, otherwise.
    I completely agree that we are the first ones to get pooed on in terms of cuts.

    If i was making suggestions to improve the situation

    - Reduce student numbers by introducing a cap
    -Reduce the flow of EU pharmacists by assesments.
    - Close down excessive chains of multiples that are not needed in some areas which are killing independents
    - Have a strong body that represents us rather than the chains
    -Improve our roles which is limited to checking boxes right now
    **- Hopefully all this can free up money for the NHS that means pharmacy can be funded properly again so pharmacists dont leave in droves.

    Just my 2 pence**
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    I actually used to think pharmacy graduates got paid a good amount
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    On my first shift, when i took up locuming, it was in 1995, and I was paid £12.50 per hour! For that money to be offered 21 yrs later, is truly shocking! I wonder how many Doctors are earning what the going rate was 21 yrs ago??!!
    The problem lies not with EU pharmacists, which is probably around 10%, but with the explosion in pharmacy schools after the fallow year in 2001. Far too many schools of pharmacy and graduates. Until the govt. cap the student numbers, wages will continue to be driven down, much to the multiples delight.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I actually used to think pharmacy graduates got paid a good amount
    The wage is decent for a graduate imo however finding *the* job is becoming difficult. And yes although starting salary is decent you don't want to be on that same salary for years and years to come.


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    Yep, and here is the kicker with the wage situation: Once big companies realize they can get away with offering a certain rate, you will have a hell of a time convincing them to go back up.

    I have been in that environment and, sad to say, a lot of what has been said here is true; results matter, not people. Your line manager doesn't get a bonus for every MUR which catches a dangerous interaction or every NMS which assuages a patients fear about their new inhaler. No. All that matters is the number game - making your store, area, region, whatever, look as profitable as possible. That is what will earmark you for bonuses, payrises and promotion, and is exactly why management are so aggressive about doing MURs and other services - they know it's a surefire way to pad out their margins, so they can look better at their jobs than they actually are.

    Undoubtedly, there are long-term benefits to raising pay, by-and-large because higher rates mean you attract better-quality Pharmacists, who in turn will have a higher job satisfaction, leading to higher productivity and greater staff rentention; believe me, from healthcare assistant to Pharmacist, good staff are damn well worth every penny you pay them. However, the problem is that raising wages means the books will take a hit, and inevitably, someone higher up the food chain will want to know who hasn't been doing their job properly. Nobody wants to be the person who buggers the spreadsheet, instead, they want to be the person who gives the shiny presentation on how if we pay our locums £17/hr instead of £21 it will save the company however much per annum, thus earning the applause of shareholders the world over.

    Really, prospective student, current student, pre-registration, or Pharmacist, you need to get up in arms now, not when £17/hr has looked reasonable for several years, but £14 is becoming alarmingly common. I don't know if anyone has done first aid (I did as a part of pre-reg), but you need to think of our pay situation like a burn - stick it under cold water fast enough and you can stop the heat from spreading, reducing the possibility of a scar; sadly however, I think permanent damage is already starting to take form. All we can really do now is damage control.
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    (Original post by FallenPetal)
    While there is truth to that, I think Brexit's effect on Pharmacy is akin to closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Schools still are (and will be) churning out graduates at high rates - regardless of where you are from, when you are choosing between unemployment and **** pay, yeah, there may be a time when £12/hr starts to look mighty appealing. Still, I find it plausible that Brexit will improve the situation, but I'm doubtful that it will fix it - you will still be paid similar (or even more) to sit around in an Aldi, and that's the sad truth. Wages will only stop going down; they will not go back up.

    I am not an expert on immigration however, so if anyone has any figures that indicates a bulk of Pharmacists entering the workforce are from the EU (or vice versa), that would be fairly interesting.

    Theoretically, I would also posset that if Brexit plunges the UK into a recession - as many economics experts are predicting - any halted decrease in salary might be negated by the value of the pound falling? I mean, we'll keep our profession's financial standing, sure, but within an economy which has been royally ****ed. I hope that doesn't happen, desperately, I do, but I think we still need to entertain it as a possibility.

    ...I am also not an economist though, so take the above with a hefty pinch of salt.

    Also, as a matter of full disclosure, I have my sights set on a career in research, so you aren't going to convince me that Brexit is good for my job prospects, regardless of what happens to Pharmacy.

    http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.co...201400.article
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    Interesting - so 6.6% - or 3500 - of the Pharmacy register are EU.

    In 2002, there were 11 schools of Pharmacy - I am eyeballing here, but lets assume the average number of qualified Pharmacists produced/yr is 880. That's 880/yr.

    Now, there are 30 schools. Again - making the assumption that, on average, each will produce 80 Pharmacists - we are looking at 2400/yr.

    Given that in my round of qualifying around 2000 Pharmacists were added to this register, this number does seem right (although I will stress I am massively estimating numbers; there is a rather large margin of error).

    Taking into account increased competition for pre-reg places, we will assume that the new influx of Pharmacy schools produces an extra 800 or-so Pharmacists per year; looking online, the pass numbers for the June 2002 sitting was around 1,400 but, bearing in mind new schools are starting to produce their first graduates, I think a rough estimate of 800 is fair.

    ...I would say, from that, the increased number of graduates outnumbers the number of Pharmacists entering from the EU each year. Now, I don't know how many EU Pharmacists are entering per year, but - given that there are 3500 total - I doubt it's as high as 800. Even assuming the number of EU Pharmacissts in 2002 was 0, that's still only an average influx of 250/yr to get to 3500; in truth, the 'real' number is going to be much less than that.

    Also, let us eyeball the number of lost jobs from Pharmacy closures. Assuming that the government succeeds in shutting down 25% of community Pharmacies (which I doubt will actually happen, as I've recently come to appreciate our government are wholly inept), that's a loss of 1000 - 3000 Pharmacies. Making the conservative estimate that each Pharmacy employs one Pharmacist, that's a loss of 1000 - 3000 jobs in the next 4-5 years. Again, likely outnumbering the number of EU Pharmacists that will enter by 2020.

    Mind, these numbers are estimates done off the top of my head and should be taken with a hefty pinch of salt. Here are some problems with my experiment, so to speak:
    - I am assuming that all EU Pharmacists are entering the workforce as Pharmacists
    - I am assming that all UK newly qualifieds are entering the workforce as Pharmacists
    - I am assuming that rates of EU-Pharmacist influx are constant. While highly, highly unlikely, it is possible that the 3,500 figure is due to a large recent boom of immigrants which would continue without intervention
    - I am assuming that the GPhC won't place an artificial cap on new Pharmacissts by severly limitiing the avaliability of pre-reg places, which is a possibility in the future
    - I am ignoring new job opportunities presented by the GP Pharmacist scheme, which should somewhat offset community closures

    Now, it used to be the case that the number of jobs vastly outnumbered the number of Pharmacists entering the workforce (UEA actually opened because Pharmacies in the Norfolk area had no Pharmacist cover); something in the past 10-15 years changed that, however, I am still doubtful that the EU is a particularly significant player. That said, if anyone wants to wholly contradict this post with better numbers, be my guest.
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    So OP suggested applying at Aldi?
    I did a week there and quit. It was back breaking, miserable work. OP is a troll
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    (Original post by ALittleLost25)
    So OP suggested applying at Aldi?
    I did a week there and quit. It was back breaking, miserable work. OP is a troll
    OP is talking from experience. You cannot understand the problems pharmacy is facing if you're not in the profession.


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