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    (Original post by RealisticPharm)
    Bulls***. You're a kid in Year 9 who has painted so much Tippex on his pencil case that he's started inhaling the fumes and writing his opinions on the graduate job market. It's the only explanation.

    Get help son, before it's too late.
    http://www.talktofrank.com/drug/glue...s-and-aerosols
    Why so malicious
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    (Original post by RealisticPharm)
    I don't think any Pharmacist will deny that Chemists are the true....Chemists! I mean, what sort of idiot would you have to be to think that someone who studies Chemistry for 3-4 years, could be replaced by someone who studied some Chemistry for 4 years, alongside microbiology, physiology, pharmacokinetics, law, pharmacy practice, epidemiology etc. No Pharmacist is ever going to be close to any specialist in any of those fields, it's a generalist degree!

    Chemistry is probably a lot more stable as a career choice too. It probably wasn't as lucrative as Pharmacy in the last two decades, although I doubt there was much in it. The gap has closed now, and given that there always was a shortage of Chemistry students, a glut of Pharmacy students, and those that there are are facing pretty poor prospects, it's an avenue I'd urge any Pharmacy applicant to consider.
    Every professional degree is broad. Medicine, pharmacy etc. All broad. A person who studies chemistry will know more chemistry than a person who studied pharmacy or chemical engineering, which have other components. Just like a microbiologist will know more about the different microbes than medics. Does this make microbiology a better course? No. You are trying to discourage people from applying from a saturated course and that is fine, however, do not demerit the intensity of the course. I know how hard I struggle to programme my brain from pharmaceutical chemistry one minute to pharmacy practice or pharmacology the next.

    I do not personally believe pharmacologists have more knowledge than pharmacist though and this is me speaking from experience. I had all of my first year units(except the pharmacy practice one) and most of my second year units with pharmacology students. Although I have no lectures with them this third year, I believe this is because they have to be taught everything in order to graduate this year whereas we have an extra year so the uni can afford to pace our learning. But I do not think there is anything they can do that I cannot.

    In sixth form, I could not decide between pharmacy and chemistry thus I spoke to the careers adviser. She advised pharmacy as it is quite broad and I could then go on to specialise in chemistry or pharmacology or whatever I wanted to afterwards. I do not regret my choice one bit however, I do not see myself being a pharmacist for more than 5 years tops. The aspect I particularly agree with is the opening of new pharmacy schools, it grindsssssss my bones. Anyway, I am just trying to be optimistic for the future, or at least by the time I graduate, things would not be as bad. Luckily, I started pharmacy school before three new unis opened so I can hopefully, fulfil my 5 year plan and keep it moving before things get much worse.
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    (Original post by Lawbringer)
    Why so malicious
    I'm not being that malicious, I am concerned that he might be a juvenile solvent abuser. I said what I said in a flippant way, but this was in the hope that I would plant the idea in his head about stopping in a way that a heartfelt plea would never have done.
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    Probably done more research for this thread than you have for your dissertations lol
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    (Original post by RealisticPharm)
    I'm not being that malicious, I am concerned that he might be a juvenile solvent abuser. I said what I said in a flippant way, but this was in the hope that I would plant the idea in his head about stopping in a way that a heartfelt plea would never have done.
    A soon to be MechEng grad speaking and not some random 15 year old.
    With friends in Pharmacy earning 30-40k I thought it would be a good shout.
    Maybe? Maybe not?

    But seriously, thanks for all the information on this post, you didn't have to do it but you did. A lot of people will learn and think 10 times before embarking on the MPharm.
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Every professional degree is broad. Medicine, pharmacy etc. All broad. A person who studies chemistry will know more chemistry than a person who studied pharmacy or chemical engineering, which have other components. Just like a microbiologist will know more about the different microbes than medics. Does this make microbiology a better course? No. You are trying to discourage people from applying from a saturated course and that is fine, however, do not demerit the intensity of the course. I know how hard I struggle to programme my brain from pharmaceutical chemistry one minute to pharmacy practice or pharmacology the next.

    I do not personally believe pharmacologists have more knowledge than pharmacist though and this is me speaking from experience. I had all of my first year units(except the pharmacy practice one) and most of my second year units with pharmacology students. Although I have no lectures with them this third year, I believe this is because they have to be taught everything in order to graduate this year whereas we have an extra year so the uni can afford to pace our learning. But I do not think there is anything they can do that I cannot.

    In sixth form, I could not decide between pharmacy and chemistry thus I spoke to the careers adviser. She advised pharmacy as it is quite broad and I could then go on to specialise in chemistry or pharmacology or whatever I wanted to afterwards. I do not regret my choice one bit however, I do not see myself being a pharmacist for more than 5 years tops. The aspect I particularly agree with is the opening of new pharmacy schools, it grindsssssss my bones. Anyway, I am just trying to be optimistic for the future, or at least by the time I graduate, things would not be as bad. Luckily, I started pharmacy school before three new unis opened so I can hopefully, fulfil my 5 year plan and keep it moving before things get much worse.
    I'm not disputing that Pharmacy is difficult.I've studied it, I know it's difficult. I was responding to this ridiculous assertion

    (Original post by youngman2012)
    A Pharmacist with further masters can easily do what a Chemist does.
    Wait, until you get in the real world.
    Pharmacy is indeed overcrowded, although that needn't be the end of the world. I'm trying to dissuade those with other viable options, which the applicants to most good Pharmacy schools will have, to consider those very carefully in light of the multiple crises which are about to hit a profession which is already on the ropes.

    What do you see yourself doing, if you don't mind me asking? I know it's a difficult question, and I'd have struggled to answer it as a student. This is part of the problem though - the schools rope you in with promises of this guaranteed golden career, and many A-Level students don't have the experience or gudiance to make any sort of informed choice. There are definitely options available to students still studying, but I believe it's much easier to move away if you don't get stuck in a Pharmacy role upon graduation. Getting summer placements really is such an important thing to do.
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Every professional degree is broad. Medicine, pharmacy etc. All broad. A person who studies chemistry will know more chemistry than a person who studied pharmacy or chemical engineering, which have other components. Just like a microbiologist will know more about the different microbes than medics. Does this make microbiology a better course? No. You are trying to discourage people from applying from a saturated course and that is fine, however, do not demerit the intensity of the course. I know how hard I struggle to programme my brain from pharmaceutical chemistry one minute to pharmacy practice or pharmacology the next.

    I do not personally believe pharmacologists have more knowledge than pharmacist though and this is me speaking from experience. I had all of my first year units(except the pharmacy practice one) and most of my second year units with pharmacology students. Although I have no lectures with them this third year, I believe this is because they have to be taught everything in order to graduate this year whereas we have an extra year so the uni can afford to pace our learning. But I do not think there is anything they can do that I cannot.

    In sixth form, I could not decide between pharmacy and chemistry thus I spoke to the careers adviser. She advised pharmacy as it is quite broad and I could then go on to specialise in chemistry or pharmacology or whatever I wanted to afterwards. I do not regret my choice one bit however, I do not see myself being a pharmacist for more than 5 years tops. The aspect I particularly agree with is the opening of new pharmacy schools, it grindsssssss my bones. Anyway, I am just trying to be optimistic for the future, or at least by the time I graduate, things would not be as bad. Luckily, I started pharmacy school before three new unis opened so I can hopefully, fulfil my 5 year plan and keep it moving before things get much worse.
    Why only 5 years? What are you planning on doing? I thought you loved Pharmacy and your cousin was a Pharmacist making a raking.
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    (Original post by Youngman2012)
    A soon to be MechEng grad speaking and not some random 15 year old.
    With friends in Pharmacy earning 30-40k I thought it would be a good shout.
    Maybe? Maybe not?

    But seriously, thanks for all the information on this post, you didn't have to do it but you did. A lot of people will learn and think 10 times before embarking on the MPharm.
    Go for it! Sounds like a great move, I think you'll find it fulfilling and rewarding!
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Every professional degree is broad. Medicine, pharmacy etc. All broad. A person who studies chemistry will know more chemistry than a person who studied pharmacy or chemical engineering, which have other components. Just like a microbiologist will know more about the different microbes than medics. Does this make microbiology a better course? No. You are trying to discourage people from applying from a saturated course and that is fine, however, do not demerit the intensity of the course. I know how hard I struggle to programme my brain from pharmaceutical chemistry one minute to pharmacy practice or pharmacology the next.

    I do not personally believe pharmacologists have more knowledge than pharmacist though and this is me speaking from experience. I had all of my first year units(except the pharmacy practice one) and most of my second year units with pharmacology students. Although I have no lectures with them this third year, I believe this is because they have to be taught everything in order to graduate this year whereas we have an extra year so the uni can afford to pace our learning. But I do not think there is anything they can do that I cannot.

    In sixth form, I could not decide between pharmacy and chemistry thus I spoke to the careers adviser. She advised pharmacy as it is quite broad and I could then go on to specialise in chemistry or pharmacology or whatever I wanted to afterwards. I do not regret my choice one bit however, I do not see myself being a pharmacist for more than 5 years tops. The aspect I particularly agree with is the opening of new pharmacy schools, it grindsssssss my bones. Anyway, I am just trying to be optimistic for the future, or at least by the time I graduate, things would not be as bad. Luckily, I started pharmacy school before three new unis opened so I can hopefully, fulfil my 5 year plan and keep it moving before things get much worse.
    He was not undermining the difficult of your course in the slightest; what he was stating is merely fact. All he is saying is that it is ludicrous to think that a pharmacist would know more chemistry than a chemist.

    I'm afraid to say that your careers advisor has misled you in this instance. You can't simply just 'specialise' in general chemistry. Even normal chemists can't do that. Chemistry is so broad that you are unable to study all three main branches of chemistry in your fourth year, let alone the sub-branches in each main section. What hope could a pharmacist have, with your relatively limited knowledge of (organic) chemistry? Besides, with no intention of disrespect, I highly doubt you could even do a PhD in organic chemistry because your fundamental understanding of organic mechanisms and synthesis would be hugely insufficient, as I presume you don't even go into much detail about organic reactions (or at all).

    Moreover, your poor foundation in mathematics and physics would prevent you from even being eligible to apply for anything that was inorganic, analytical or physical chemistry in nature because of the amount of maths involved.
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    (Original post by RealisticPharm)
    Go for it! Sounds like a great move, I think you'll find it fulfilling and rewarding!
    I didn't say I was going to do it. It may be my only option. Seriously, I appreciate your input as someone who has got over 6 years experience in Pharmacy.
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    (Original post by RealisticPharm)
    I'm not disputing that Pharmacy is difficult.I've studied it, I know it's difficult. I was responding to this ridiculous assertion



    Pharmacy is indeed overcrowded, although that needn't be the end of the world. I'm trying to dissuade those with other viable options, which the applicants to most good Pharmacy schools will have, to consider those very carefully in light of the multiple crises which are about to hit a profession which is already on the ropes.

    What do you see yourself doing, if you don't mind me asking? I know it's a difficult question, and I'd have struggled to answer it as a student. This is part of the problem though - the schools rope you in with promises of this guaranteed golden career, and many A-Level students don't have the experience or gudiance to make any sort of informed choice. There are definitely options available to students still studying, but I believe it's much easier to move away if you don't get stuck in a Pharmacy role upon graduation. Getting summer placements really is such an important thing to do.
    I am thinking of doing a PhD. It's just an option though. I like research and I want to make a difference.

    (Original post by Youngman2012)
    Why only 5 years? What are you planning on doing? I thought you loved Pharmacy and your cousin was a Pharmacist making a raking.
    I do love pharmacy, its a great course and I do not for one second regret my decision. But I have other goals apart from being a typical British pharmacist. I am originally from a developing country although I have lived here since my early teenage years. I would like to go back at some point, after gathering as much knowledge as I possibly can here and possibly from other countries, even maybe after getting a phd. Possibly help develop the pharmaceutical industry in my country. Its a blank slate there and they neeeed my enthusiastic self. Plus, people take metronidazole (a narrow spectrum antibiotic) for period pain so they realllllllly need me

    My cousin is good though. Chilling in her pharmacy manager job, making a kill. However, I recently discovered that Sussex is opening a new pharmacy school. That is HONESTLY the last thing we need. I mean, since I started university, Durham, Birmingham, Lincoln and now Sussex have opened new pharmacy schools. Lets say each accept 100 students, that is like 400. There are only about 600 or so hospital pre-reg opportunities. So these new pharmacy schools have made competition so terribly difficult. Boots and co are just going to drive their wages down like any greedy business would do. So no, I would not advice anyone to go into pharmacy now. Wait a couple of years and see how this GP practice thing pans out. I guess its the same for all courses, but I am a bit concerned after doing some more reading. Basically, any university can decide to do a pharmacy course. Ask Sussex why they started one. Is there a shortage? No. Just unis being greedy.

    Just face your Mechanical Engineering. Save and do a masters course at a university with good links to the industry.
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Funny, there are pharmacists in my university doing PhDs in Pharmaceutical Chemistry. Wonder how that happened :rolleyes:
    But...that's pharmaceutical chemistry. Not general chemistry...

    Go find me someone who is doing an organic chemistry PhD from a pharmacy background and I will rest my case.

    Presumably pharmaceutical chemistry will be chemistry that would be accessible for pharmacists and is not representative of most postgraduate chemistry courses.
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    (Original post by InadequateJusticex)
    But...that's pharmaceutical chemistry. Not general chemistry...

    Go find me someone who is doing an organic chemistry PhD from a pharmacy background and I will rest my case
    Presumably pharmaceutical chemistry will be chemistry that would be accessible for pharmacists and is not representative of most postgraduate chemistry courses.
    From my three years in pharmacy school, I can tell you that pharmaceutical chemistry IS organic chemisty. Maybe just a branch but there you have it. Someone doing a Phd in a branch of organic chemistry

    Well PHARMaceutical chemistry is all the chemistry a PHARMacist needs.
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    (Original post by InadequateJusticex)
    But...that's pharmaceutical chemistry. Not general chemistry...

    Go find me someone who is doing an organic chemistry PhD from a pharmacy background and I will rest my case.
    This is taken from another thread.

    Aidin Thread Starter Posts: 10 0 badges Offline follow 0 followers 7 21-11-2010 22:47 Report post Sorry, haven't been on in a while. I have sent an email to Leeds university and asked them to clarify this. It is an accredited university however. I hope they will reply. It would be pointless and a waste of time. I can see how having a chemistry degree might be attractive but that is only on paper. Whether it is useful or not I don't know. Chemistry Jobs are declining. 3 years ago, there would be 7 pages of employment opportunities in the Chemical World magazine....Now there is hardly even 1 page.
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    From my three years in pharmacy school, I can tell you that pharmaceutical chemistry IS organic chemisty. Maybe just a branch but there you have it. Someone doing a Phd in a branch of organic chemistry
    Okay...so if I gave you a moderately sized molecule you'd be able to use retrosynthetic analysis to break it down and suggest suitable reactions, reagents and conditions to put forward a reasonable forward synthesis for it?
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    (Original post by Youngman2012)
    This is taken from another thread.

    Aidin Thread Starter Posts: 10 0 badges Offline follow 0 followers 7 21-11-2010 22:47 Report post Sorry, haven't been on in a while. I have sent an email to Leeds university and asked them to clarify this. It is an accredited university however. I hope they will reply. It would be pointless and a waste of time. I can see how having a chemistry degree might be attractive but that is only on paper. Whether it is useful or not I don't know. Chemistry Jobs are declining. 3 years ago, there would be 7 pages of employment opportunities in the Chemical World magazine....Now there is hardly even 1 page.
    1. lol it's from 2010

    2. http://jobs.rsc.org/jobs/#browsing if you have a look at the total number of job adverts that is clearly at least 7 pages so jokes on you
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    (Original post by InadequateJusticex)
    Okay...so if I gave you a moderately sized molecule you'd be able to use retrosynthetic analysis to break it down and suggest suitable reactions, reagents and conditions to put forward a reasonable forward synthesis for it?
    Are we talking pharmaceutical molecules? If so, then yes. We covered Retrosynthesis in my second year, in the Pharmaceutical Chemistry unit. I know enough chemistry to allow me work in the pharmaceutical industry and synthesise drugs properly. Maybe not as much as a pure chemist but enough. Oh and I also know what the drugs - which I synthesise are used for, their contra-indications, side effects, cautions, how they are absorbed in the body, how they work, how they are metabolised and excreted. I also know how to counsel patients on taking them, what to do if they overdose, how to monitor that they are taking them properly. Plus, I have also been taught when to prescribe these said medicines and the GPHC are making us learn the evidence behind the use of medicines for conditions. The whole shaboom. So yeah, us pharmacists are all rounders
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Are we talking pharmaceutical molecules? If so, then yes. We covered Retrosynthesis in my second year, in the Pharmaceutical Chemistry unit. I know enough chemistry to allow me work in the pharmaceutical industry and synthesise drugs properly. Maybe not as much as a pure chemist but enough. Oh and I also know what the drugs - which I synthesise are used for, their contra-indications, side effects, cautions, how they are absorbed in the body, how they work, how they are metabolised and excreted. I also know how to counsel patients on taking them, what to do if they overdose, how to monitor that they are taking them properly. Oh and I have also been taught how to prescribe these said medicines plus the GPHC is making us learn the evidence behind the use of medicines for conditions. The whole shaboom. So yeah, us pharmacists are all rounders
    So if you're so well rounded why do pharmaceutical companies hire more chemists than pharmacists, not just for graduate level jobs but also industrial placements? I visited my friends at GSK and the vast majority of their work was pharmaceutical/medicinal related and yet it was dominated by chemists, and there was like one pharma student. Curious.

    Also, may I just add that you're not exactly well rounded when the knowledge and skills you've listed are only applicable in one industry lol...
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    (Original post by InadequateJusticex)
    So if you're so well rounded why do pharmaceutical companies hire more chemists than pharmacists, not just for graduate level jobs but also industrial placements? I visited my friends at GSK and the vast majority of their work was pharmaceutical/medicinal related and yet it was dominated by chemists, and there was like one pharma student. Curious.
    Because pharmacy students would rather go into community or hospital than industry. You do not even need to be a registered pharmacist to work in industry lol. We are more than 100 in my year and only TWO are interested in applying for industry placements.
    Most industry pharmacists are too busy making chemotherapy medicines that are needed daily in hospitals to compete with chemists for GSK jobs and so on.

    (Original post by InadequateJusticex)
    Also, may I just add that you're not exactly well rounded when the knowledge and skills you've listed are only applicable in one industry lol...
    Lol how does this even make sense? We can work in labs, hospitals, primary care, community etc etc. We can even teach, not just Chemistry but Biology and Maths too.
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Because pharmacy students would rather go into community or hospital than industry. You do not even need to be a registered pharmacist to work in industry lol. We are more than 100 in my year and only TWO are interested in applying for industry placements.
    Most industry pharmacists are too busy making chemotherapy medicines that are needed daily in hospitals to compete with chemists for GSK jobs and so on.
    The research projects I'm interested in next year are all focused on the synthesis of biologically active and/or medicinal compounds. You seem to think that only pharmacists are the ones making the medicine which is rather ignorant...
 
 
 
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