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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Depends what you mean by 'share'. This is a similar debate that exists in many partitionist conflicts (such as say, Bosnia):
    - The Israeli side maintains that it is and has generally been willing to 'share' the land in the sense of its partition into two states, one explicitly for Jews and one explicitly for Palestinians.
    - The Palestinian side has somewhat accepted the bulk of the Israeli position in recent years (though it's more reluctant on the explicit defining of the two states), but until the First Intifada, their position was that they were willing to 'share' the land in the sense of a joint state over the whole area, a shared state between Jews and Palestinians.
    I've dug up my old dissertation on the wars with Israel now. I think it's fairly undeniable that opposition to the partitioning of palestine, as it then was, was predominantly coming from the arabs. Whether the Jewish concurrence was in good faith or not, it was the arabs who overtly opposed it.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Nope. This was the Israeli line for a long time (and to an extent still is) but increasingly, historical consensus is that the Arab states lacked both the intent and the capacity to make an attack. Pro-Israel arguments about 1967 have generally shifted to more circumstantial arguments.
    I'm pretty sure even the most contemporary historical view on this is that the jury is very much out. The egyptians, jordanians and syrians had all mobilised their military forces and placed them on to the border with palestine. And whilst there is some evidence to suggest egyptian mobilisation was defensive, the syrian military force was very clearly intending to invade. And it was reasonable (in my opinion) for the israelis to assume that if Syria did attack, that egypt would support them. This view would be supported by the egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran, which contravenes international law and sets a precedent for egyptian hostility towards the israelis. Given how dependant the Israelis were on the imports through this passage - especially for oil - I'd say this is in itself was grounds for undertaking military action. And that's before you take into account that we know egypt and syria had already shown their willingness to undertake unprovoked military action against the israelis, when they invaded in 1948.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Sort of. The UN General Assembly (not the Security Council) recommended a partition. The Jewish Agency, the main Zionist body in Palestine, somewhat ambiguously but in general approved the partition (there are however historical doubts about the sincerity of this). The minor hard-right groups Irgun and Lehi rejected it. The Palestinian Arabs had no clearly defined leadership in the same sense, but there was broad dissatisfaction with and opposition to the proposal. Nevertheless, indifference and resignation was more common among the Palestinians than significant active opposition.

    Also, crucially, the partition plan had no implementation mechanism, and the British authorities had no intention of implementing it, rendering it largely meaningless as soon as it had been proposed..
    All this is true, but the 1948 war between the israelis and the arabs was indisputably initiated by an arab invading force from egypt and syria. So whether a plan for this partition to be implemented was ever on the table is essentially moot, as political attempts to settle were curtailed when an arab force attacked the israelis.

    (Original post by anarchism101)
    I discussed the Six Day Way above, but what do you mean "kicked out of Israel"? The territory Israel captured in 1967 is not part of Israel.
    I mean that in each instance, the loss of land to the israelis was a result of aggression initiated by arab forces. Whether the jury is out on the six days war or not, the hostilities in 1948 which lead to the first loss of land to israel was because the arabs attempted to invade israeli land.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Egypt and Syria had little illusion that they might 'win' the 1973 War. Sadat wanted simply to win some negotiating leverage and prestige to get Sinai back - which he had offered to negotiate a peace deal for in the three years since he had taken office as President of Egypt. Israel threw his offers in his face and left him little other option.
    I'm not sure I agree with that position. I'd struggle to believe that Sadat was going to enter a war he knew he'd lose, essentially signing up to tens of thousands of his own people dying, as a bargaining ploy. But beyond this, I find it even harder to believe the syrians would sign up to this. What exactly did they gain out of this arrangement?

    And that's not the point anyways. My point was that the Yom Kippur war was an example of an unprovoked military attack on israel by her arab neighbours.


    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Yes, it is, this is largely historical consensus now.
    I don't agree with that. Even if I went along with you that the six days war was unprovoked, the other two instances of war between israel and her arab neighbours were undeniably initiated by the arabs.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I'm pretty sure the Palestinians want more than just that
    Let me guess... All Palestine free from Jews? :cool:
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    History shows that the two groups can live side by side and indeed help defend each other.

    If they could do it for over 1000 years, then they could start doing it again.


    You're not doing a good enough job attacking the argument.



    Most Israelis are not Ashkenazis who fled the Nazi gas chambers or Russian Pogroms, most Israelis are dark skinned Arabic Jews who fled Islamic antisemitism. The difference between Europe and Arabia is not that Europe was exclusively antisemitic and every else just loved the Jewish people, Europe is the only continent which has even recognised the past.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Irrelevant.

    Next argument opposing a one-state solution.
    I have demonstrated your reason to be fictitious.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Let me guess... All Palestine free from Jews? :cool:
    Israel will get pre-1967 borders, at the very least. Preferably they will get all of Jerusalem but the PA will dig in over that. Some non-Jews will stay in Israel, but most of them will be those who have supported Israel throughout her history, such the Bedouin, Druze and Christian Arabs. The only officially occupied zone will then be the Golan heights, but there is little appetite even among the Arabs to retake that


    If no Jew is left in the newly formed Palestine, I see that as a great mercy rather than something to complain about.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Next valid argument please.
    if you're going to behave like a child, I think you'd better go sit on the naughty step
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    I can't. Israel blew it to smithereens.
    Move to malmo
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    (Original post by Damien96)
    I'm not sure either but it is a good sign that there is such a thing, aside from the cringe-worthy existence of such competitions.
    Miss palestine is a pornographic actor. there is no prize called Miss palestine.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    The opposition to the Zionist concept that Palestine is a literal homeland for Jewish people and opposition to it's brutal policies of cleansing, displacement and forceful relocation of inhabitants whose families have resided there for centuries, in fulfillment of said concept, is something that helps Palestinians.
    This aspect of Zionism is I oppose as well. My issue is that far too many people assume that the conflict is Israel vs. Palestine but forget the greater influence of nations such as the United States and other Arab nations, e.g. Jordan.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    Miss palestine is a pornographic actor. there is no prize called Miss palestine.
    Bahahahaha
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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    West Bank

    Gaza


    The areas the Palestinians want.
    and their capital city, of course...
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    (Original post by 098udf89dsf)
    and their capital city, of course...
    The West Bank includes east Jerusalem


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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    The West Bank includes east Jerusalem
    thank you for educating me


    i retract my post
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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    The country of Palestine is not the same as the land, the country is a made up entity. Obviously all countries are made up entities, but Palestine was literally made up to sell the idea to outsiders.

    I still support the idea of Palestine, but never pretend there is a thousand year old history here, not even 100 years of history.
    When I say Palestine, I'm talking about the area that covers Israel and Palestine today. The fact is Palestinians (as we know them today) have lived there for centuries, along with the Jews who also lived there. But European Jews who came after WW2 can't legitimately claim it belongs to them.

    But that's in the past, like I said before, Israel should be allowed to exist as its been around for decades (you can't just randomly deport all Israelis), but Palestine has a right to exist too.
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Specifically who?
    At a free Palestine event
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    (Original post by Lord Samosa)
    When I say Palestine, I'm talking about the area that covers Israel and Palestine today. The fact is Palestinians (as we know them today) have lived there for centuries, along with the Jews who also lived there. But European Jews who came after WW2 can't legitimately claim it belongs to them.

    But that's in the past, like I said before, Israel should be allowed to exist as its been around for decades (you can't just randomly deport all Israelis), but Palestine has a right to exist too.
    Indeed, but too many external factors are influencing the situation, for example, Jordanian and Egyptian interests (both historically and today).
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Let me guess... All Palestine free from Jews? :cool:
    No, sweety.
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    I could well be wrong on the details (haven't really looked at israeli history for a couple years), but from what I recall weren't the israelis quite willing to share Israel, up until the six-day war? From what I remember, the arab countries surrounding israel (egypt, jordan and syria) planned a military attack on israel, which israel pre-empted and blew them out of the water. That was what lead to the arabs being pushed out of Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and parts of the Sinai?

    I just checked and that was the case. The UN suggested a partition of the land in 1947 between the Jews and Arabs. The jews agreed to it, the arabs rejected it. This lead to a war in which the jews ended up with even more land. So the arabs planned another attempt in 1967, which is what lead to them being essentially kicked out of israel in the six day war. They then tried a third time, which culminated in another defeat during the Yom Kippur war. Which isn't to say that I agree with what Israel is doing now - frankly, neither israel nor palestine are in the right - but the accusation that israel evicted the arabs from their homeland isn't accurate. That was rather brought on themselves.
    So you're saying the Arabs are lying and telling fake tales?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    So you're saying the Arabs are lying and telling fake tales?
    Lol, I'm just stating my understanding of the historical facts, and tbf I prefaced it with an acknowledgement that I could well be wrong. If there's a part of my explanation of the wars between israel and her arab neighbours that you think is wrong, feel free to explain it to me Always open to learning, although I'd suggest you should avoid an emotional rebuttal as that's worth little and less in a factual debate.

    Honestly, I'd suggest that arabs and israelis are the two worst groups to quote on this matter, as they have an obvious bias on the issue.
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    Lol, I'm just stating my understanding of the historical facts, and tbf I prefaced it with an acknowledgement that I could well be wrong. If there's a part of my explanation of the wars between israel and her arab neighbours that you think is wrong, feel free to explain it to me Always open to learning, although I'd suggest you should avoid an emotional rebuttal as that's worth little and less in a factual debate.

    Honestly, I'd suggest that arabs and israelis are the two worst groups to quote on this matter, as they have an obvious bias on the issue.
    Ah okay,I thought you were having a dig at Palestinians. That's so true tbh,we need an unbiased Analysis on both sides.
 
 
 
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