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    People acting like society will crumble if we leave the EU, as if the entire world economy will turn its back on us.
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    (Original post by sr90)
    Where do you chaps stand on Brexit? In or out?
    Really not sure.

    Didnt think I would be able to vote - but I just signed up to vote by proxy, so now a friend in england can vote on my behalf.

    Honestly dont know though.

    I mean for me its:

    In:

    Safer
    More globalized society
    More peaceful Europe
    Much better in the short term (next 5years)
    Free movement etc.

    Out:
    Much more risky
    More democratic
    Greater level of control/indipendance
    More *potential* control over boarders
    Much worse in the short term (next 5 years)

    --

    In a football match:

    Kick off: Principles:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    To be honest, I can see both sides of the argument on a principle level, as it just comes down to greater indipendance vs. greater as a whole, which is a simple issue to look at. so for me, this is tied


    1-1

    30 minutes: Immagration
    Spoiler:
    Show
    On an immigration level, I favour OUT. Our current system is out of control. and whilst Out does not mean it will change, it at least gives the chance for it to change. I am all for immigration, but under a certain level, like we had for half a century, until things spiralled out of control this century.. You know their is a problem when me and my wife, a professional married couple have a hard time getting an english visa.. but some random douche from europe can stroll in, without any requirement at all and abuse the system. Make it fair, and make it controlled, and let those in who really want to contribute to our society.


    2-1 brexit.

    Second half:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    In she short term, its a huge staggering win to remain. I cant see any single respected voice who does not believe that leaving will not make us face a good few years of difficulties. Jobs will be lost, negotiations will take time, trade will drop etc, it would be a rough few years.


    2-2 and 3-2 remain.

    80 minutes: long-term
    Spoiler:
    Show
    So then it comes down the last 5 minutes, and you have to consider the long-term. This is where it all gets hypothetical and complete speculation. For me, if you take this out of the equasion, as many do because its just ideas. then Remain wins.. but if you have a strong feeling about it either way, then it can sway the arguement.

    For me personally I dont see europe having a bright future. Speaking as someone who lives outside of it, looking back it looks like an absolute mess. People over here laugh at how tradgic the situations have become in some of the oldest/greatest countries. As a continent many economies have never truelly recovered from the last recesion, and if another one comes, I can personally see it effecting europe disproprtionatly. Its clear from their statements that the leaders in europe want closer intergration, not less, and looking at the shambolic handling of the refugee crisis, I dont have any faith in their ability to control world situations.
    Then you have to bring in potential better trade deals with other countries in the long term, closer political links to countries we are not able to have now.. and a better long-term control over our boarders.. and for me, personally, and its all just my opinion. but I think that our long-term future is better outside a failing EU, then within.


    3-3

    Penalties:

    It would humiliate david cameron: 1-0 leave
    It would make boris no.1 candidate for PM: 1-1 remain
    Either would cement a devided comunity: 1-1 remain
    Could actually lower house prices: 2-1 leave
    Would piss off all my overly liberal friends: 3-1 leave
    Would make holidays harder for a few years: 3-2 remain
    Not good at all for universities: 3-3 Remain
    Would isolate scotland from england even more: 4-3 Remain

    So thats where I am at the moment, my feelings reflected in football are basically: 3-3 draw, 4-3 on penalties to remain.
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    (Original post by AR_95)
    Frankly no one is interested
    But if people dont care about me on here.. What else do I have?
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    (Original post by Rk2k14)
    People need to realise that Britain doesn't have the same influence as it did in previous centuries.
    Don't like that argument.. as people need to realize that having great influence is not a necessity to being a strong independent country. However I do think their is a delusion on the Brexit side where people expect us to remain a world-power, even after leaving.. which is never going to happen. Leaving and transitioning into an indipendant decent small country = possible. Leaving and transitoning into a dominant/influencial force in the word = never going to happen.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    Don't like that argument.. as people need to realize that having great influence is not a necessity to being a strong independent country. However I do think their is a delusion on the Brexit side where people expect us to remain a world-power, even after leaving.. which is never going to happen. Leaving and transitioning into an indipendant decent small country = possible. Leaving and transitoning into a dominant/influencial force in the world = never going to happen.
    Are we not that already? 5th largest economy in the world, member of the G7 and G20, very important culturally and scientifically. We're not what we were in the 19th century and we're not the USA, but we're still among the most influential in the world.
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    (Original post by swirly)
    You live in Manchester ffs, ofc you'd say that when the ship building industry has declined.

    London is like the capital of the world.
    And yet London has a far higher proportion of people wanting to stay IN as the impact of leaving the EU would hit London the hardest.

    (Original post by Jimmy Seville)
    People acting like society will crumble if we leave the EU, as if the entire world economy will turn its back on us.
    Society is already terrible in this country but that's an aside point. I think you'll have a long period of instability from an economic standpoint just because no one knows how the dust will settle.

    I'd expect the rest of Europe to turn their back on us immediately. Yes we give and get a lot of trade from them but if they give the UK a good deal after leaving, it's the start of the end of the EU since everyone else will look and say - well why are we staying in?

    Look at what has happened/is happening to Greece - there enough funds to help Greece but countries like Germany/France feel the need to take a hard line approach since otherwise countries like Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy etc are more likely to want to do a Greece by defaulting and then coming out in better shape.

    Then going further afield, I don't think the US and China care that much about us - we might be ranked 5th but we're still a fraction of the size of China/US (maybe around 15% of the size) so they won't bend over backwards for us.
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    (Original post by Jimmy Seville)
    People acting like society will crumble if we leave the EU, as if the entire world economy will turn its back on us.
    People acting like they give a **** about economic arguments, as if they don't just want to express their bigoted views.
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    RIP Kimbo Slice
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    The things that I've absolutely despised about this whole campaign are the propaganda and the fact that if you have even a remotely negative view on immigration you're branded a racist and a bigot.
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    (Original post by The Wavefunction)
    The things that I've absolutely despised about this whole campaign are the propaganda and the fact that if you have even a remotely negative view on immigration you're branded a racist and a bigot.
    Racist!



    I'm probably one of those who will assume you are a racist if you hate immigrants (or however you negatively feel about them) since it's usually an assumption that all immigration is bad. The reality is somewhere in the middle imo where some immigration is good/great but some is bad. Much in the same way that some of the current population of the UK is good/great but there are plenty of leeches in society who are bad.

    Shame we can't live in a truly meritocratic world where we kick out able bodied immigrants + "natives" who refuse to contribute to society in a positive way where they are able.
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    (Original post by Louis.)
    People acting like they give a **** about economic arguments, as if they don't just want to express their bigoted views.
    Agree.

    This is the only thing I've actually decided to vote for. UK are ****ed if they leave EU, EU will be pissed in all honesty and the UK will be left to fend for themselves.

    (Original post by Zerforax)
    And yet London has a far higher proportion of people wanting to stay IN as the impact of leaving the EU would hit London the hardest.



    Society is already terrible in this country but that's an aside point. I think you'll have a long period of instability from an economic standpoint just because no one knows how the dust will settle.

    I'd expect the rest of Europe to turn their back on us immediately. Yes we give and get a lot of trade from them but if they give the UK a good deal after leaving, it's the start of the end of the EU since everyone else will look and say - well why are we staying in?

    Look at what has happened/is happening to Greece - there enough funds to help Greece but countries like Germany/France feel the need to take a hard line approach since otherwise countries like Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy etc are more likely to want to do a Greece by defaulting and then coming out in better shape.

    Then going further afield, I don't think the US and China care that much about us - we might be ranked 5th but we're still a fraction of the size of China/US (maybe around 15% of the size) so they won't bend over backwards for us.
    Yeah UK isn't really that big a country anymore. Saying that I'm pretty sure the economy and wealth distribution isn't that much different to the US when you factor the fact that country is 39 times the land mass of the UK and has 4 times the population of the UK.

    (Original post by swirly)
    You live in Manchester ffs, ofc you'd say that when the ship building industry has declined.

    London is like the capital of the world.
    There are like 3 London's in the states.
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)


    There are like 3 London's in the states.
    Oh cool, which ones you been to?
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    (Original post by swirly)
    Kim-Jong-Illest yo r u Brucas or Leyton?
    brucas, is dat a legitimate Q tho??
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    (Original post by swirly)
    Oh cool, which ones you been to?
    Doesn't California have a bigger economy than the UK?
    • Thread Starter
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    You would have thought De Gea>Casillas was a no-brainer.
    Politics over football.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Doesn't California have a bigger economy than the UK?
    Probably with Silicon Valley, and New York you'd argue is as big or not bigger than London.

    You have San Fran and LA(leaders of the movie and IT industry) in the same state lol.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Doesn't California have a bigger economy than the UK?
    I'm sure the Cayman Islands has a bigger economy too.
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    Strong correlation (in the circles of people that I see/speak to/know) between those who say england is not a great country any more/england is weak on its own / never sound that patriotic, and those who are not white english or older then 30.

    I get that it. Even if I lived in china for the next 40 years, I would never ever think of china in the same way my wife does.. those views are just very very hard to develop in anything that you dont consider truelly 100% your own.

    Even in 2nd/3rd generation migrant families, there can still be an eliment of distance, probably caused by the native population themselves (racism/systematic discrimination etc), that cause a slight seperation in feelngs.. plus you have two cultures, its easy to compare them, see the flaws in one or the other etc, and so so many reasons, why some migrant families are less patriotic in the traditional sense then a native family who have ancestor after ancestor here.

    --

    What I dislike though, is seeing it in young white/british people.. Just screams ungreatful. They have and will not have to go through half the **** that migrant families do.. are lucky enough to have been born into one of the most privillaged positions on the plannet, even if they are poor they are still in the top percentages of the words population.. they live in a relitivly prosperous, stable democracy, non-vilant, low crime, high employment, high wages (relitivly), high education, free healthcare, cultrually rich (and diverse) country.. and yet they still dont feel any strong positive feelings towards it, and would rather ***** and whine about how bad it is, and how lacking it is in places, and how weak and pathetic a country it is.

    My racist great grandfather would have told the immigrants to **** off, for not having 100% patriotisim for this country. But I can understand that to a point, and have no problem with that.. For me its the native english people who have no care for this country.. they are the ones who can **** off.

    Which brings me back to zerfs point last page, I agree.. Would be nice if we lived in a society where the locals who deserve to, could be got rid of, just as easily as a UKIP supporter would get rid of a migrant family.
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    (Original post by swirly)
    I'm sure the Cayman Islands has a bigger economy too.
    #Sauce? Cos I'm sure that is wrong. Not sure how a place with circa 60k people has a bigger economy than the UK.
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    (Original post by Kim-Jong-Illest)
    brucas, is dat a legitimate Q tho??
    Spoiler:
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    but bruh



 
 
 
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