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    (Original post by Louis.)
    Let's not pretend we're not co-chairs of the 'doing silly stuff to your name' club

    1. It's not just the Blairites. He's lost key figures on the left too...Lisa Nandy, Owen Smith etc. Even Ed Miliband has lost faith :nopity:

    2. Part of me understands the timing. While Corbyn is leader they're essentially guaranteeing a Tory majority, ****ing over the people Corbyn claims to help. There's massive self-indulgence with Corbyn and his supporters, they'd take feeling good about being ideologically pure over actually helping people. The EU referendum presents a huge opportunity to get rid of an awful leader, so I get that.

    3. The other part of me thinks they've just shifted all the attention from a shambolic Tory party to a shambolic Labour party. Appalig media management. But there we go.

    4. I genuinely can't understand Corbyn's state of mind. Party is essentially on fire around him and he's shrugging his shoulders and saying it's fine.

    5. No one even read this anyway.
    Not sure the Labour MPs have thought this through entirely. Corbyn was elected by the party members less than 12 months ago and he won in a landslide victory (60% and the next rival got less than 20%). If I was a Labour supporting/Corbyn supporter, there's no chance I'd be voting for Labour if an election was called soon purely on the basis that they obviously don't care what the voters think.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    Tory majority is guaranteed anyway, when Scotland leave the UK Labour are finished for the next 20+ years. Boris must be laughing his head off.


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    It feels inevitable but there's no reason it should be. Blair would have won without Scotland in 97, 01 and 05. Under proper leadership Labour are a political force that can reach almost all of the UK.

    Big problem Labour have now will be all the Leave voters. So many of them voted for the blatant lies of the Leave campaign, and when these lies inevitably aren't delivered it'll be seen as an establishment stitch up which will feed into the far right/UKIP appeal.

    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Not sure the Labour MPs have thought this through entirely. Corbyn was elected by the party members less than 12 months ago and he won in a landslide victory (60% and the next rival got less than 20%). If I was a Labour supporting/Corbyn supporter, there's no chance I'd be voting for Labour if an election was called soon purely on the basis that they obviously don't care what the voters think.
    Still think the bulk of Corbyn supporters would vote for Eagle or a similar figure. Some would piss off to the Greens or wherever but that'll be more than compensated by the ability to actually switch Conservative voters, which they can't do under Corbyn.
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    Swirly wears cool pants.
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    (Original post by Louis.)
    It feels inevitable but there's no reason it should be. Blair would have won without Scotland in 97, 01 and 05. Under proper leadership Labour are a political force that can reach almost all of the UK.

    Big problem Labour have now will be all the Leave voters. So many of them voted for the blatant lies of the Leave campaign, and when these lies inevitably aren't delivered it'll be seen as an establishment stitch up which will feed into the far right/UKIP appeal.
    Yeah but a decade ago we never would've voted to leave the EU, it's just a sigh of the majority turning to the right thanks to extremism, recessions and unemployment. I think what this referendum has shown is that people are willing to ignore all other aspects of our nation (economy, employment sector etc.) in favour of what is shockingly deep rooted hatred towards others. That's always been a concept, but it's a view now seemingly held by the masses. Labour may have the best welfare policies and they may fight for the people, but their liberal foreign policies just doesn't sit well with people anymore. Sure the people will be angry when Gove cuts their benefits, increases their taxes and takes away their jobs (hyperbole), but they'll just adapt, a Gove-Johnson government is basically far right anyway. Conservatives are gradually moving right on the political spectrum. The obvious issue also hammering the final nail in Labour's coffin so to speak is the lack of a leader. Watson won't win a general.



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    Angela Eagle? ****ing hell they did what I didn't think was possible and found a candidate worse than Corbyn
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    Everyone's a politician now
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    Last decade or so has been an utter disaster for Labour. I'd love to write a dissertation on post Blair labour
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    Bring back Brown.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    I think what this referendum has shown is that people are willing to ignore all other aspects of our nation (economy, employment sector etc.) in favour of what is shockingly deep rooted hatred towards others. That's always been a concept, but it's a view now seemingly held by the masses.
    deep rooted hatred towards others?*

    Have you even lived in another country outside the UK? - not only talking about myself, but about my other expat friends who live in other countries.. but to put it lightly, the UK is one of the most open, loving and accepting countries in the world.

    To say we have a deep rooted hatred is way to extreme, when we have so many countries around the world that would quite frankly treat you like a complete second-class citizen, and not just in the social way that it manifests in the UK, but in an actual political discriminatory way.

    --

    What this election has shown is the deep rooted longing to live surrounded by your own culture, and people you identify as your own. It manifest on both sides, with liberal youth wanting to be surrounded by europeans and other cultures, as that is what they percieve as their own, in their globalised world.. and older generations still having the feeling that their own, is only white british people. The middle class tend to fall somewhere in the middle, caring less about race and more about own 'cultural values'

    Its not a hatred though, that is far to extreme of a word..

    We all yearn to be surrounded in an enviroment that we consider our own.. our circle of friends, our work friends, our family, our city, our region, and extending out until our country... but mass immagration has taken a part of this away for many people. Immagaration, can be, and usually is, highly positive.. and if you look at intergration from immigratns between the 50s-2000, intergration was high, and tension decreased massivly, with society really becoming more accepting and liberal. A big reason for this was that immigration was still low.. with low immigration, and a vast majority-native population, there is no choice but to intergrate. Like me in china, I HAVE to intergrate, because there are very very few non-chinese people here.. its intergrate or be alone.

    But with mass immagration after 2000, we have started to see so so many more problems.. huge numbers coming, whole communities being created that seek not to intergrate, but to isolate. It started from the bottom up in our society.. at first it was just a few poor white areas affected, and no one cared.. then it was large working class areas in cities, and still no one really cared.. finally it has become an issue for lower-middle class people in subburbs, and finally now people start to care.

    Point is this, what this election shows is a deep rooted wanting to not be alone, to be part of something bigger then yourself: to belong. This extends from the imidiancy of your family.. all the way out to the country and large groups you belong to. Globalisation and mass immigration have taken this core belief away from large parts of society.. and whilst the upper parts of society dont care due to the financial benifits of it all.. the lower parts of society, who only had their communities.. they never had money, never had much, all they had was the people around them - they are starting to kick and scream in countries all across the west, as we start to see this 'rise of the right'.

    Its only going to keep going, until finally the powers that be recognise that whilst an intermixing of race can be tolerated on mass.. a mass intermixing of cultures cannot.*

    Spreading thoughts that british people have a deep rooted hatred though - is not true at all. If you want to see a true deep rooted hatred for other countries, come here to china, or to one of the other many many countries where you would be treated like utter shite by the people in charge, and the general public just due to the country you are from (I think your south asian if I remember rightly?)*
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    52% of people, that's over 17 million people, voted leave for the SOLE reason of restricted movement in the EU. That's them willing to risk the economy, mass relocations of major corporations and likely welfare cuts all to stop Agneiska from Poland seeking a better life for herself and her family. I don't need to tell you this, 57% increase in hate crimes since Brexit has changed the face of the country forever, it's only gonna get worse. And you expect me to believe that it's a "loving, accepting" nation? Certainly more than other nations yes, but you're either naïve or deluded if you think all is well in the UK.


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    Easy to say Britain's a loving and accepting place if you're white.
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    52% of people, that's over 17 million people, voted leave for the SOLE reason of restricted movement in the EU.
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    That's not true, many voted for economic reasons, even if they weren't valid
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    (Original post by Zayn is Bae)
    52% of people, that's over 17 million people, voted leave for the SOLE reason of restricted movement in the EU. That's them willing to risk the economy, mass relocations of major corporations and likely welfare cuts all to stop Agneiska from Poland seeking a better life for herself and her family. I don't need to tell you this, 57% increase in hate crimes since Brexit has changed the face of the country forever, it's only gonna get worse. And you expect me to believe that it's a "loving, accepting" nation? Certainly more than other nations yes, but you're either naïve or deluded if you think all is well in the UK.
    Your being reactionary.

    57% increase in hate crimes is to be expected.. this should surprise no one.. its not an increase in the way british people feel, just a awful reaction from the lowest part of society who are using this as an excuse to lash out.

    But let me ask you this - and answer serriously - Do you think that number would be higher or lower, if we had voted to stay in?

    If Remain won.. all those violent/hateful people who desperatly wanted to leave, do you think they would have been less violent/racist?

    The 57% figure is meaningless, because what ever the referendum result, a vote like this was always going to charge racial tensions and cause in increase in problems.. In or Out people would have either been celebrating by lashing out at others.. or by lashing out in anger/frustration, but no matter what you were going to see an increase.

    ---

    "that's over 17 million people, voted leave for the SOLE reason of restricted movement in the EU. That's them willing to risk the economy, mass relocations of major corporations and likely welfare cuts all to stop Agneiska from Poland seeking a better life for herself and her family."

    Its this misinterpretation of peoples needs, that causes you to fail to understand why you lost the referendum (and I lost, as I voted IN). You dont understand why they are risking everything.. why no financial arguements were ever going to work in a referendum like this..

    I am going to make assumptions about you now- so appologies if they are wrong - but as far as I know you are south Asian? Pakistani? or indian? and you were born in england (specifically london?) so your probably the 2nd or third generation of your family in the UK? maybe 4th?

    This is my point, for you - your community, the psychological group around you is statically likely to be a very multi cultural one. With a core of your family/relitives being mono-culture, and then with a diverse multicultural wider group from school/university/work/social groups. That is likely to be the world you have always lived in (if you were born in the UK). So for you, a multicultrual UK is the norm, that is your society, and the wider in-group that you feel acceptable/comfortable/homely within.

    (if that is true) then its a very important distinction between you and the majority of white british people. I have mentioned this again and again, but for everyone, their perception of their group is highly important, we are very tribal people and we always band together looking for saftey, familiarity, that sense of home, bellonging and pride. Its essential to us and what the glue in our society is based on.

    For most people, in most countries that feeling still has huge links to how they percieve their culture, and for less (but still a lot of societies) huge links to how they percieve race. You cannot, absolutly cannot understimate this feeling and how important it is to others. Its not that they hate you or other cultures, just that you are (rightly) percieved as a threat to their own culture and group.. which is going to cause tension and problems.

    You may take issue with the idea that your culture is a threat to another culture, and maybe for you multcultrualism works? after all, you are the child of it (if my presumtions about you are correct) and for you your in-group is a multicultured society.

    But for most, it is a threat.

    Right now, can you tell me 1 country where multicultrualism is working?

    England has just voted against immgaration in the largest referendum in years.
    America faces racially motivated shootings, race riots, police killings and more
    Europe is seeing the largest shift to the right since the 1930s
    East asai flat out refuses multicultrualism.
    Austrailia's populist leaders are all against unlimited refugees, and the growing opinion is that immigration is getting to high
    In the middle east cultures are murdering and destroying each other
    In africa racial tensions are always high
    etc. etc.

    The point is its in our nature to value and treasure our own group, and the incraesing trend against the idea of groups, and in favour of the idea of globalisation and a world without groups - is causing a kickback around most of the western world.

    But its not because they have a deep rooted hatred of you. Most english people, if they understand their own feelings, dont hate other cultures.. what they hate is the idea of other cultures destroying their own. They dont hate you, they hate the effect they percieve you to be having.

    ---

    Comparitivly the UK is a very loving and accepting country. even in comparison to our european neighbors, we are very tolerant and excepting.. are we perfect and amazing? no, but that perfect multiculltrual society where everyone lives in peace and harmony and all races, cultures and people are treated 100% equally both in law and society = is something which will never happen, as it goes against our core nature of our own, and the others, England right now is about as good as it gets.. and looking at the trend in western countries, I think its as good as its ever going to get.
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    (Original post by Rk2k14)
    Easy to say Britain's a loving and accepting place if you're white.
    Its easy to say its not, when you have never lived anywhere else.

    I live in a country(china) where many of the posters on this thread would be:

    -Paid less then me, and openly told why.
    -Called horrible names daily, by a society which doesn't think its wrong
    -Subject to a goverment which gives them no racial protection.
    -Subject to a goverment which gives them less rights then the native people
    -Rejected in huge swathes of employment due to the colour of their skin
    -Barred entry from multiple places and societies due to the colour of their skin
    -Refused housing due to the colour of their skin
    -Be starred at every day, have children pointing at them and asking their dad 'what is that?'
    -Be completly isolated by native people when it comes to dating/marrying etc.

    --

    England is not perfect, but comparitvly its very loving and accepting.

    Ofcourse a non-white person is never going to have as easy a time as a white person in england.. but as long as its a majority white country, that will always be the case as pure numbers will cause more white people to be in positions of power, and then their biases towards their own will cause preferential treatement and decisions in favour of white people.. no country yet has ever been able to avoid the bias towards the majority.. although england is coming pretty close with some minority groups (indian, east asian) now out-performing and out-earning white british people..

    But point is that compared to perfection, a perfectly equal society.. yes england is not that loving an accepting of all.

    But that perfect society as of yet does not exist, and compared to all the societies we see around the world right now, England is easily one of the absolutely best places for a non-white british person to live.
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    Who's marking these essays?

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    Jk. Well put argument.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    Its easy to say its not, when you have never lived anywhere else.

    I live in a country(china) where many of the posters on this thread would be:

    -Paid less then me, and openly told why.
    -Called horrible names daily, by a society which doesn't think its wrong
    -Subject to a goverment which gives them no racial protection.
    -Subject to a goverment which gives them less rights then the native people
    -Rejected in huge swathes of employment due to the colour of their skin
    -Barred entry from multiple places and societies due to the colour of their skin
    -Refused housing due to the colour of their skin
    -Be starred at every day, have children pointing at them and asking their dad 'what is that?'
    -Be completly isolated by native people when it comes to dating/marrying etc.

    --

    England is not perfect, but comparitvly its very loving and accepting.

    Ofcourse a non-white person is never going to have as easy a time as a white person in england.. but as long as its a majority white country, that will always be the case as pure numbers will cause more white people to be in positions of power, and then their biases towards their own will cause preferential treatement and decisions in favour of white people.. no country yet has ever been able to avoid the bias towards the majority.. although england is coming pretty close with some minority groups (indian, east asian) now out-performing and out-earning white british people..

    But point is that compared to perfection, a perfectly equal society.. yes england is not that loving an accepting of all.

    But that perfect society as of yet does not exist, and compared to all the societies we see around the world right now, England is easily one of the absolutely best places for a non-white british person to live.
    I'm still with Rk2k12's assertion on this. Yes there are other countries which are much much worse but they don't pretend to be accepting. They are open about it so at least if you decide to go there you go with your eyes open. In England everyone likes to pretend that it's all nice and everyone is equal yada yada. Obviously much more equal than other countries/societies but there's still a gap that a lot of people pretend like it doesn't exist.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    I'm still with Rk2k12's assertion on this. Yes there are other countries which are much much worse but they don't pretend to be accepting. They are open about it so at least if you decide to go there you go with your eyes open. In England everyone likes to pretend that it's all nice and everyone is equal yada yada. Obviously much more equal than other countries/societies but there's still a gap that a lot of people pretend like it doesn't exist.
    I agree 100% with this.

    England is not equal, no one should ever pretend it is. To do so, undermines the difficulty a lot of people face.

    But to the best of our knowledge, as you say, it is much more equal then other countries, which is all we currently have to compare it to, because otherwise we are comparing it to an ideal that as of yet does not exist.

    Comparing anything real to the concept of true equality will always leave a lot to be desired, but I personally have never seen a country that does have true equality.. I see some including England who are getting close, but none who have made it.

    The original claim that RK took issue with was that England is 'loving and accepting' - Both of those words only work with comparisons.. compared to and put in context with all other countries England is comparatively 'loving and accepting'.

    I have never claimed England to be perfect, or even equal, in any of my post - just that in the modern world we live in, England is a loving and accepting country.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    I agree 100% with this.

    England is not equal, no one should ever pretend it is. To do so, undermines the difficulty a lot of people face.

    But to the best of our knowledge, as you say, it is much more equal then other countries, which is all we currently have to compare it to, because otherwise we are comparing it to an ideal that as of yet does not exist.

    Comparing anything real to the concept of true equality will always leave a lot to be desired, but I personally have never seen a country that does have true equality.. I see some including England who are getting close, but none who have made it.

    The original claim that RK took issue with was that England is 'loving and accepting' - Both of those words only work with comparisons.. compared to and put in context with all other countries England is comparatively 'loving and accepting'.

    I have never claimed England to be perfect, or even equal, in any of my post - just that in the modern world we live in, England is a loving and accepting country.
    Too broad a generalisation for me. I'd say:

    25% are loving/accepting
    50% are tolerant (ranging from being friends but wouldn't want their daughter to marry one of those to just ignoring/don't come across)
    25% are hateful

    Figures pulled out of my *** and will massively depend on which part of England you're in.

    I've had the whole range - friends who I've known for 10-15 years, people who won't look me in the eye or sit next to me on the tube to being spat at/sworn/attacked. Last part definitely does not make it feel accepting/loving.
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    English society is equal. Just some are more equal than others.

    lol at sr90 Sr90 Sucks BBC looking forward to the Henley Regatta. I worked there for the day a few years ago, one of the worst experiences I've ever had.
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    Wales is equal.

    All about that 96% of the population being part of the White elite master supreme race
 
 
 
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