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    My sister is considering which of these to choose. I know that UEL has a bad rep and all but from what I hear UAL isn't all that great either.

    Obviously UAL is the better option but as an international student the fee difference would be substantial. UEL is £11000 per year and UEL (csm) is £17200, and apparently there are a lot of additional charges on top AND that figure will increase every year. Their accommodation is much more expensive too.

    So my question is, is UEL really all that bad? (Reputation aside) We're not rich so the difference in fees would really make a big difference.
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    It's BA Fine Art, by the way
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    Central St Martin's has an amazing reputation for art - one of the best in the country.

    I'm not aware of any specific reputation UEL has for its art courses, but overall, it's rarely considered an aspirational choice.

    If you can afford it, I would go for Central St Martin's - in this case, you get what you pay for.

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    (Original post by Origami Bullets)
    Central St Martin's has an amazing reputation for art - one of the best in the country.

    I'm not aware of any specific reputation UEL has for its art courses, but overall, it's rarely considered an aspirational choice.

    If you can afford it, I would go for Central St Martin's - in this case, you get what you pay for.

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    ^This

    And also because of this
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._Saint_Martins

    And the new building is shamazing.
    Central Saint Martins: Inside the art factory
    http://gu.com/p/344bz


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    (Original post by Origami Bullets)
    Central St Martin's has an amazing reputation for art - one of the best in the country.

    I'm not aware of any specific reputation UEL has for its art courses, but overall, it's rarely considered an aspirational choice.

    If you can afford it, I would go for Central St Martin's - in this case, you get what you pay for.

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    Hey there! you a hedgehog too?
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    (Original post by HedgehogsRulz)
    Hey there! you a hedgehog too?
    Only on Tuesday afternoons and the occasional bank holiday.

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    (Original post by Origami Bullets)
    Central St Martin's has an amazing reputation for art - one of the best in the country.

    I'm not aware of any specific reputation UEL has for its art courses, but overall, it's rarely considered an aspirational choice.

    If you can afford it, I would go for Central St Martin's - in this case, you get what you pay for.

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    (Original post by jneill)
    ^This

    And also because of this
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._Saint_Martins

    And the new building is shamazing.
    Central Saint Martins: Inside the art factory
    http://gu.com/p/344bz


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    Fair enough. But what exactly is so bad about UAL? 🤔
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    (Original post by Summertime99)
    Fair enough. But what exactly is so bad about UAL? 🤔
    You mean whats so bad about UEL...

    UAL CSM is Central St Martin's.

    For Art CSM is equivalent to Oxbridge in terms of reputation. It's on a par with the Royal College of Art (although RCA is postgrad only). And is one of the best Art faculties in the world.

    http://www.topuniversities.com/unive...=false+search=

    UEL isn't. Although the Chapman brothers are UEL art alumni so it can't be all bad.

    Have you or your sister visited either?

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    (Original post by Summertime99)
    Fair enough. But what exactly is so bad about UAL? 🤔
    There's nothing wrong with UAL at all. The university as a whole is really only an administrative umbrella for the colleges that form it. For the most part, the constituent colleges (including CSM) carry the strong reputation, rather than UAL overall. I can guarantee that their graduates write CSM on their CV rather than UAL for that reason.

    For UEL, the disadvantages would be
    - only gained university status in 1992 - before that it was a polytechnic, and such universities are rarely particularly well regarded in the UK
    - in the arse end of East London - I lived near their Stratford campuses for a while, and frankly I couldn't wait to get away - it's grim, rough, and generally has absolutely nothing to recommend it apart from a large shopping centre and the Olympic Park (which isn't that great)
    - Compare and contrast the notable alumni:
    UEL, for all subjects, from the previous institution's roots in the 1880s onwards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...of_East_London
    CSM, from 1989 onwards only https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Saint_Martins
    - Better employment rates - see www.unistats.ac.uk

    Don't forget that it's not compulsory to live in CSM halls - she could live somewhere else, that's cheaper. The reason why it's more expensive to live in CSM halls than UEL is because CSM is located in the middle of central London, whereas UEL is located in the rougher and cheaper East London - again, you get what you pay for.
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    (Original post by Summertime99)
    It's BA Fine Art, by the way
    Does your sister have an offer from both? Presumably she was interviewed... what did she think of the 2 locations?
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    (Original post by jneill)
    You mean whats so bad about UEL...

    UAL CSM is Central St Martin's.

    For Art CSM is equivalent to Oxbridge in terms of reputation. It's on a par with the Royal College of Art. And is one of the best Art faculties in the world.

    UEL isn't. Although the Chapman brothers are UEL art alumni so it can't be all bad.

    Have you or your sister visited either?

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    (Original post by jneill)
    Does your sister have an offer from both? Presumably she was interviewed... what did she think of the 2 locations?
    I haven't been in the uk for a few months and won't be able to make a trip there so soon. Basing the decision off pros and cons at the moment. They don't interview internationals, so no. I've only spent a few weeks in London before and don't know much about the areas. East London I hear is a bad location but the pictures and videos of the campus look nice enough.

    Still waiting to hear from Middlesex, which has fees similar to UEL but has a much better reputation than UEL. Would that be a better option, if she's accepted? Pretty sure she'll get an offer there too,


    (Original post by Origami Bullets)
    There's nothing wrong with UAL at all. The university as a whole is really only an administrative umbrella for the colleges that form it. For the most part, the constituent colleges (including CSM) carry the strong reputation, rather than UAL overall. I can guarantee that their graduates write CSM on their CV rather than UAL for that reason.

    For UEL, the disadvantages would be
    - only gained university status in 1992 - before that it was a polytechnic, and such universities are rarely particularly well regarded in the UK
    - in the arse end of East London - I lived near their Stratford campuses for a while, and frankly I couldn't wait to get away - it's grim, rough, and generally has absolutely nothing to recommend it apart from a large shopping centre and the Olympic Park (which isn't that great)
    - Compare and contrast the notable alumni:
    UEL, for all subjects, from the previous institution's roots in the 1880s onwards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...of_East_London
    CSM, from 1989 onwards only https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Saint_Martins
    - Better employment rates - see www.unistats.ac.uk

    Don't forget that it's not compulsory to live in CSM halls - she could live somewhere else, that's cheaper. The reason why it's more expensive to live in CSM halls than UEL is because CSM is located in the middle of central London, whereas UEL is located in the rougher and cheaper East London - again, you get what you pay for.
    She definitely wants to live on campus for the more 'uni' feel. Plus it'll be easier to make friends.

    It's just a little strange to me. Why does UAL charge so much? I go to Sheffield which is a far better uni and Russell group too. My fees only net about 12k..



    And thank you both for your help, really appreciate it ! 😊🙌🏿
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    (Original post by Summertime99)
    It's just a little strange to me. Why does UAL charge so much? I go to Sheffield which is a far better uni and Russell group too. My fees only net about 12k..
    Probably because it can. For Art CSM is a league above Sheffield. Think Oxbridge.

    And other top art colleges are similar:
    Oxford Ruskin is almost £25k
    Goldsmiths £19k


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    (Original post by Summertime99)
    It's just a little strange to me. Why does UAL charge so much? I go to Sheffield which is a far better uni and Russell group too. My fees only net about 12k..
    Partly because they can - international fees do function like something of a market, and they will charge what the market will bear.

    However, it's worth noting that art is a rather more expensive subject to teach than law.

    With law, you have one person standing at the front of a large lecture theatre, teaching ~250 students at a time for 6 hours a week, plus some PhD students doing some seminar groups and being paid a pittance for it (in some cases, less than minimum wage). There are few facilities required for this, and none of those facilities are specialist (e.g. lecture theatres can be used by every department).

    In contrast, art requires rather smaller group teaching, lots of specialist studio space etc. etc.

    PS I found one rather interesting stat via www.unistats.ac.uk - after first year, 93% of students doing fine art at CSM are still on the course. At UEL, that figure is only 74%. More than a quarter of students dropping out within a year (the national average is 7.3%, for context) indicates that something is very wrong - which is usually related to one or more of the following - student satisfaction, lack of student support, and large numbers of non-traditional students (the latter is likely to be a significant factor at UEL, but I'd still be concerned overall)
 
 
 
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