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Do you believe modesty is a form of oppression?

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Original post by RobML
Why does it matter whether it's happening in your own country or another? I fail to see how that has any bearing on whether something is oppression or not...

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What do you mean?

I feel like whether something oppressive or not can differ, depending on the situation.
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
Okay, could you also answer the other question I asked? :tongue:

"But how do you feel about the whole idea of "modesty". Do you see it as liberating (which is how many people see it), or not?"


I believe it's a matter of perspective, and that there are no right or wrong answers :bigsmile: For instance, a lot of people would probably argue that the opposite is liberating :yep:
Modesty when done for YOU and only for you is not oppression. But the concept of modesty can be used a medium of oppression and we can see this in Middle Eastern countries etc.. goodluck with your essay!
Original post by TheBBQ
Absolutely not.


Explain??
Original post by Bath_Student
Fair point, but the issue is that the woman on the right has no other choice!


So I live in a small town populated by mostly white people. My family is one of the only few Muslim families. So we do have a choice in our environment.

A Muslim woman that I know chooses to wear a burka. Her husband doesn't force her to. Her daughters don't wear them or even hijabs, and they are not forced to. She has a choice.

I don't wear a hijab or a burka. My mother doesn't. My sister doesn't. We have a choice, and therefore, if I decided to start wearing one, it would be my own decision which would not be influenced by anyone else.

Don't get all Muslim women confused with places like Saudi Arabia.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by BrokenLife
I know you haven't asked me this question but I really just wanted to share my opinion on this one.

The whole idea behind oppression is forcing someone to behave or act in a specific manner. That's oppression. Modesty on its own cannot be classified as oppression since those who dress in a modest way may have chosen to do so without anyone's oppression. Imo whether modesty is liberating or not is in itself oppression as people don't realise the main distinctive features between liberation and oppression.


What do you mean?

(I think I'm really tired, sorry :redface:)
So long as the person made the choice without fear of violence or judgement it is not oppression. In principle there is nothing wrong with traditional values, but I do feel that there is a danger that other people create a culture of negativity around women who don't conform to their values and this is deeply wrong.
Reply 27
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RobML
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Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
What do you mean?

I feel like whether something oppressive or not can differ, depending on the situation.


So if a british woman is forced to completely cover up in Saudi Arabia, for example, it's not oppression because she's only a visitor? That literally makes zero sense
When modesty, in terms of clothing, is being forced onto someone, that's when it's oppressive and unacceptable.
Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with dressing how you want, be your tastes modest or revealing
Original post by RobML
So if a british woman is forced to completely cover up in Saudi Arabia, for example, it's not oppression because she's only a visitor? That literally makes zero sense


Nooo, I meant that a woman practising Islam and modesty here in Britain may feel liberated when dressing that way, and have different feelings to a woman in Saudi Arabia who doesn't really have the choice, then it is oppressive.
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
What do you mean?

(I think I'm really tired, sorry :redface:)

Haha don't be sorry. I'm very tired as well so completely understandable :smile:

What I mean is that when people are argue that modesty is a form of oppression, that in itself is oppression according to me. Why? Well, because a modest person may want to dress or act in a certain manner without any pressure or oppression, it is then oppressive to make some behave or dress in a immodest manner. I've seen cases where husbands tell their wives to take off the hijab. According to these men, hijab may be a symbol of oppression but what they are doing by forcing their wives to dress in a specific way is also an oppression.

Many people don't seem to get the hang of the distinctive line between liberation and oppression.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Serine Soul
When modesty, in terms of clothing, is being forced onto someone, that's when it's oppressive and unacceptable.
Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with dressing how you want, be your tastes modest or revealing


I agree, it should be a choice. But just the very idea of modesty, do you see how it could be oppressive? or no?
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
I think both can be liberating in their own ways, because of how people feel when dressing that way.

But you're right, liberation is the freedom to wear whatever you please :smile:


Yeah exactly :smile: Sorry, awkward wording :colondollar:
Reply 33
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RobML
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Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
Nooo, I meant that a woman practising Islam and modesty here in Britain may feel liberated when dressing that way, and have different feelings to a woman in Saudi Arabia who doesn't really have the choice, then it is oppressive.


Ah I see lol. But to sum up, the traditions of modesty as presented in Islam were clearly created to control women. So if we're talking about modesty within the sphere of Islam, then it can be seen as a force of oppression; but outside the sphere of Islam, modestly has many different meanings. Therefore you can't talk about whether modesty in general is oppression, just particular ideas of it.
Original post by BrokenLife
Haha don't be sorry. I'm very tired as well so completely understandable :smile:

What I mean is that when people are argue that modesty is a form of oppression, that in itself is oppression according to me. Why? Well, because a modest person may want to dress or act in a certain manner without any pressure or oppression, it is then oppressive to make some behave or dress in a immodest manner. I've seen cases where husbands tell their wives to take off the hijab. According to these men, hijab may be a symbol of oppression but what they are doing by forcing their wives to dress in a specific way is also an oppression.

Many people don't seem to get the hang of the distinctive line between liberation and oppression.



I see where your coming from, like the opposition a modest person may face arguing that the way they dress is oppressive can be oppressive in itself.

Yes I agree, I truly believe people have the right to dress however they please, and it really bothers me when women (especially western feminists) judge women for choosing to dress modestly and call it oppression, without actually understanding that someone has chosen to dress that way (if that is the case obviously).
Original post by RobML
Ah I see lol. But to sum up, the traditions of modesty as presented in Islam were clearly created to control women. So if we're talking about modesty within the sphere of Islam, then it can be seen as a force of oppression; but outside the sphere of Islam, modestly has many different meanings. Therefore you can't talk about whether modesty in general is oppression, just particular ideas of it.


I actually wasn't just talking about it within the sphere of Islam, although undoubtably it was bound to come up.

I can't really reach a conclusion as to whether it's oppressive or not, of course if it's a choice, then that makes it seem less oppressive, but modesty itself seems enforced largely upon one gender so that it doesn't stimulate the other...that makes it seem oppressive, but then dressing revealing does the same thing (but can have the opposite affect), which also women have called oppressive.

So to conclude, I don't think women can really win here...:s-smilie:
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
I see where your coming from, like the opposition a modest person may face arguing that the way they dress is oppressive can be oppressive in itself.

Yes I agree, I truly believe people have the right to dress however they please, and it really bothers me when women (especially western feminists) judge women for choosing to dress modestly and call it oppression, without actually understanding that someone has chosen to dress that way (if that is the case obviously).

I see your point too. However, my argument is based upon the freedom to chose.If a woman wants to cover herself or doesn't want to, its her choice. As long as someone isn't forcing her, it cannot be regarded as oppressive to me.

But yeah, some people may argue that Muslim women who cover cover due to the commandments given to them in Quran to cover which in itself is oppressive. Thus, the argument is pretty interesting from both sides.
Original post by BrokenLife
I see your point too. However, my argument is based upon the freedom to chose.If a woman wants to cover herself or doesn't want to, its her choice. As long as someone isn't forcing her, it cannot be regarded as oppressive to me.

But yeah, some people may argue that Muslim women who cover cover due to the commandments given to them in Quran to cover which in itself is oppressive. Thus, the argument is pretty interesting from both sides.


It is. Idk, I love Dina Tokio and her dress sense, and she is a perfect example of a muslim woman in the west dressing how she wants too. But then if we look on the other side of the world, things are obviously different...

Also are you muslim?
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
It is. Idk, I love Dina Tokio and her dress sense, and she is a perfect example of a muslim woman in the west dressing how she wants too. But then if we look on the other side of the world, things are obviously different...

Also are you muslim?

Haha yeah agreed. That's because we live in a Western society where we have more help given if someone is to oppress us. However, many Muslim countries don't have that, especially Saudi Arabia who have ridiculously sexist and oppressive laws against women!

Yes I'm a Muslim. :smile:
Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes
I agree, it should be a choice. But just the very idea of modesty, do you see how it could be oppressive? or no?


It is definitely used for oppressive motives. Modesty itself, as in the idea of covering up simply for the sake of it (no influence of culture or religion etc) does make it sound like there's something shameful about a body if ygm?

I'd say modesty is also pretty subjective. What I see as modest might be seen as provocative to others :dontknow:

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