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    in theory I completely agree - meat is unnecessary in a strict sense and killing animals for mere optional desires is 100% immoral

    however - how moral are we all? those who recognise this position above will know that it is wrong but will still understand that they are not moral enough to do it. it's not that being a carnivore is moral - it's the fact that *we* aren't moral, or moral enough to become vegetarians (or perhaps vegans - I understand the principle behind veganism, personally, but it's another issue of the same kind).
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    ...Your personal experience =/= reliable data when investigating overall trends. I don't understand what's funny about the fact that you don't fit the trend, there's always anomalies in these things. For example, if you eat heaps of junk food while still being vegan then you're going to have a higher intake of calories than other people, regardless of whether they're vegan/vegetarian/neither. People also have different metabolic rates anyway, which would also produce anomalies.

    I have to say, presenting your own experiences as scientific evidence (or in your case proof of your assertions) is absolutely deplorable. Not only is it pseudoscientific, but it also the worst kind of evidence you can give. It is not empirical, it can be exaggerated/understated, it cannot be compared to anything whatsoever and then there's the fact that you've got an agenda to push. As an actual scientist I ask that you refrain from making assertions unless you've got scientific evidence to back them up.

    The scientific community works really hard to show the public valid, reliable data in an attempt to silence pesky snake oil salesmen. People presenting inaccurate, invalid and unreliable data in a scientific manner makes our job so much harder.
    Mate I’ve got a science degree.

    I never at all said that this was fact or scientific evidence.

    I specifically said- these are the things that have improved whilst I am on a vegan diet. And then listed weight loss as one of them. Because it’s true for me.

    It’s made me feel immeasurably better and helped my relationship with food which may also be a reason. I’m not disputing the scientific basis of calories in vs. calories out. Infact I wrote an entire blog post on calorie counting recently.

    You took one bullet point out of an entire post and created a point of discussion that wasn’t even there. Not very scientific of you.

    This is what I said before I listed weight loss:

    For example the personal health benefits I have experienced since transitioning to a vegan diet:

    It says for example
    It says personal
    It says I

    Let me know at what point that looked like I was stating it as scientific fact or insinuated there was scientific evidence to back it up.
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    (Original post by Ethereal World)
    I get that but it has to be done differently. The thread title alone is gonna create a situation whereby meat eaters come in and just say mmmm bacon :perv:

    Humans know we don't need a lot of things but we still do them because we like to do things. We don't NEED alcohol...etc.

    The way I would do it (though I don't bang on about being a vegan) is just say put a thread up... put 5 reasons why I'm vegan. and then just explain why it is your choice- it's a much better way to educate people than telling them what they are doing is inherently wrong.
    Hi, I'm chegan. (Vegan who cheats sometimes due to social circumstances. E.g. birthday cake etc. )

    Have been for 2.5 years.

    Long story short, I ate disgusting mince beef and spaghetti last night (Don't ask why/ how) and can't get it out of my mind. I'm starting to think there's something wrong with me and thinking about cancer. This is because It's not like me to and I don't eat that disgusting piece of sh**.

    Anyway, thoughts on this? Tell me this mince beef won't trigger some sort of illness all of a sudden or I won't be able to reach 100 years of age now and only 98 years of age. ? ?

    I've tried to detox today drinking green tea.
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    (Original post by Ethereal World)
    Mate I’ve got a science degree.
    Funniest thing I have read all week.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Funniest thing I have read all week.

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    Yeah, but do you even science degree, bro?
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    (Original post by Joel 96)
    Yeah, but do you even science degree, bro?
    I don't even degree. I'm not your bro, buddy.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Political Ambassador
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    Political Ambassador
    No !!! Get of my bacon
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    (Original post by Ethereal World)
    Meat-eaters know they are killing animals in droves and supporting the industry by eating meat- and so they don’t need education on this fact.

    I think what should be addresses is areas of hypocrisy e.g.:

    - People eating free range or grass fed meat because they ‘care’ about animal life. If you care, don’t eat the animal. Irrelevant of it’s life, it’s ending up in the slaughter house.
    - Ethical vegetarians- if you care enough about animals not to eat their meat you shouldn’t really be indirectly causing death and suffering by supporting the dairy industry.
    - People who care about the environment- If you care about climate change and sustainable use of the planet then eating meat is potentially one of the worst choices you can make (due to inefficiency of livestock in terms of land area and the emissions that the meat industry causes)

    The other key area of education is about the benefits of eating vegan and just putting the word out there about that rather than attacking the negatives of eating meat. For example the personal health benefits I have experienced since transitioning to a vegan diet:

    - Shinier and stronger hair
    - Clearer and softer skin
    - Brighter eyes
    - More energy
    - Weight loss
    - Improved body composition
    - Better digestion
    - Less brain fog
    - More mental clarity and stability
    - Stronger immune system (haven’t been properly ill since)

    The above will change people’s minds or give them an incentive to try. Not militant vegans making being arrogant and superior and making comparisons that just simply do not resonate with people.
    A few things that need to be addressed here.

    Your areas of hypocrisy:

    People eating free range animals that end up in a slaughterhouse anyway. Now say we completely abandoned eating meat, we would have to slaughter the vast majority of domestic herds, best case scenario they would take up resources needed for our own food or would do what deer do in the UK at the moment which is desolate large swaths of natural habitats being a huge impediment to conservation efforts. Even if we did this, animals don't as a rule die peacefully in nature (no passing peacefully in your sleep), exposure, starving or maulling is generally the order of the day. Atleast with a slaughterhouse you can try and ensure the death is quick and painless and are you really going to say that a pig would not be better off growing in fields and outside than in a battery farm shed?

    The Ethical Vegetarians, right I'm assuming you've made a distinction of vegetarians and ethical vegetarians and I'm assuming that distinction is the ethical ones responsibly source their dairy, meaning they have already taken measures to get their dairy from sources that don't kill their animals or treat them inhumanely in which case what is your problem, they're already doing what you want.

    The Environmentalists, this is the one that grates me. There are bigger problems facing the environment than farming animals. Additionally there are numerous calls from people that eat meat for sustainable practises but you will alienate them by calling them hypocrites even though you want some of the same things.

    The benefits of a vegan diet:

    Now we'll grant these descriptions as being accurate. You attribute it to the innate health benefits of going vegan. I'd attribute them to the fact that as vegan diets are so restrictive you most likely had to do a fair amount of research to discover how to get all the nutrients you need (especially ones that would normally be found in meat and dairy) and be fairly strict about keeping to that diet. In other words you did a whole bunch of research and kept at a healthy balanced diet, funnily enough all dietary research says just doing that, will also get those exact benefits you've described even if you're eating meat and dairy.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Funniest thing I have read all week.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    :hat2:
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    (Original post by Gwilym101)
    A few things that need to be addressed here.

    Your areas of hypocrisy:

    People eating free range animals that end up in a slaughterhouse anyway. Now say we completely abandoned eating meat, we would have to slaughter the vast majority of domestic herds, best case scenario they would take up resources needed for our own food or would do what deer do in the UK at the moment which is desolate large swaths of natural habitats being a huge impediment to conservation efforts. Even if we did this, animals don't as a rule die peacefully in nature (no passing peacefully in your sleep), exposure, starving or maulling is generally the order of the day. Atleast with a slaughterhouse you can try and ensure the death is quick and painless and are you really going to say that a pig would not be better off growing in fields and outside than in a battery farm shed?

    The Ethical Vegetarians, right I'm assuming you've made a distinction of vegetarians and ethical vegetarians and I'm assuming that distinction is the ethical ones responsibly source their dairy, meaning they have already taken measures to get their dairy from sources that don't kill their animals or treat them inhumanely in which case what is your problem, they're already doing what you want.

    The Environmentalists, this is the one that grates me. There are bigger problems facing the environment than farming animals. Additionally there are numerous calls from people that eat meat for sustainable practises but you will alienate them by calling them hypocrites even though you want some of the same things.

    The benefits of a vegan diet:

    Now we'll grant these descriptions as being accurate. You attribute it to the innate health benefits of going vegan. I'd attribute them to the fact that as vegan diets are so restrictive you most likely had to do a fair amount of research to discover how to get all the nutrients you need (especially ones that would normally be found in meat and dairy) and be fairly strict about keeping to that diet. In other words you did a whole bunch of research and kept at a healthy balanced diet, funnily enough all dietary research says just doing that, will also get those exact benefits you've described even if you're eating meat and dairy.
    It's just my opinion. I respect your counter points. Thanks for your time.

    I would also look into the environmental damage caused by farming animals and the meat industry if you haven't done so already.
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    (Original post by RomanKing)
    Hi, I'm chegan. (Vegan who cheats sometimes due to social circumstances. E.g. birthday cake etc. )

    Have been for 2.5 years.

    Long story short, I ate disgusting mince beef and spaghetti last night (Don't ask why/ how) and can't get it out of my mind. I'm starting to think there's something wrong with me and thinking about cancer. This is because It's not like me to and I don't eat that disgusting piece of sh**.

    Anyway, thoughts on this? Tell me this mince beef won't trigger some sort of illness all of a sudden or I won't be able to reach 100 years of age now and only 98 years of age. ? ?

    I've tried to detox today drinking green tea.
    OMG chegan that's amazing.
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    I will decide if I want to eat meat or not - thanks
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    I simply love it too much.
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    It's okay OP, I know your struggle. The other day I caught my 'friend' eating away at a chicken drumstick, like a peasant. I calmly explained to him that eating animals was morally corrupt, but he didn't want to hear it.

    At the end of the day, you just gotta accept that not everyone can be as morally supreme as us vegans.
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    Yes YOU DO NEED to eat meat

    obviously SOMEONE around here hasn't had chicken biryani! :eviltongue:

    lol
    (Original post by SophieSmall)
    I certainly want to.
    But it's hard to stop...isn't it?
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Erm. I hate to bust through the cotton wool that encompasses your life but someone has to.

    Eating meat is NATURAL. In fact it's even the reason why you exist. If no living organism had ever started eating others we'd all be plants or pond scum. On top of that we need quite a bit of protein to function, especially as infants. Protein deficiency causes all sorts of problems with foetal development, growth, brain development, etc. Yes we can get small amounts of protein from plants like legumes, but that just doesn't cut it unless you binge snack on those foods. Meat is the best source of protein.

    What about every other omnivorous/carnivorous species? Are the members of those species horrible cruel creatures too? Come on, can't you see how ridiculous this is? Besides, life isn't fair. It's just something we have to deal with. Also, if we didn't eat those animals then they'd just be eaten by other animals instead. However, when we kill them we do it quickly and painlessly. When other animals kill them they experience a great deal of pain as claws and teeth are used to rip apart their flesh - while they're still alive. You tell me what's worse.

    If you want to become protein deficient then good for you. But don't try to force everyone else to follow your lead. That includes guilt tripping the gullible. Stop shoving your radical vegetarianism ideals in our faces because we don't care.
    Carnivorous animals need to eat meat to survive. Humans don't. Animals can't reason or actually think about the ethical implications of what they're doing. Humans can (but apparantly choose to ignore it).

    Vegetarianism is not in any way radical and will not make you protein deficient. It irks me so much when meat eaters start accusing vegans of being pushy and controlling when they're actually being MORE pushy and controlling themselves.

    This is a discussion about meat and veganism and stuff so obviously there's going to be veggies here talking about their beliefs - no one is trying to force you to do anything.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    I don't even degree. I'm not your bro, buddy.
    And I ain't your buddy, bro.
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    I've tried all the feasible alternatives I'm aware of, but welcome further suggestions
    You obviously haven't eaten farmed insects. For the same price, you get more proteins.
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    This is new news?
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    (Original post by huddledapple)
    Carnivorous animals need to eat meat to survive. Humans don't. Animals can't reason or actually think about the ethical implications of what they're doing. Humans can (but apparantly choose to ignore it).

    Vegetarianism is not in any way radical and will not make you protein deficient. It irks me so much when meat eaters start accusing vegans of being pushy and controlling when they're actually being MORE pushy and controlling themselves.

    This is a discussion about meat and veganism and stuff so obviously there's going to be veggies here talking about their beliefs - no one is trying to force you to do anything.
    Sucks I can't +1 this more than once
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    (Original post by RickmanAlways)
    We dont. Need to eat. MEAT.
    No, we dont need meat. Biology says so.
 
 
 
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