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    (Original post by Sazzy890)
    Trouble with encouraging women not to go out alone at night is that it inadvertently puts the blame on the woman for being out on her own at night when in reality it is the rapists fault for raping the woman in the first place.

    It is a shame that we live in a world now where people can't just go out at whatever time of day or night they like alone without there being a risk of being attacked and violated.
    In principle I agree, it's obvious that the only person to blame is the rapist.


    However, whilst it's easy to come out with such an overtly righteous and easy opinion, things are probably so out of control that it's not possible for Swedes to have the luxury of seeing the world in such an easy way. If Sweden was largely safe, you could look a women in the eyes and say it's ok to go out, but when things are two steps from falling apart, it's not so easy.
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    (Original post by elise10)
    As someone who lived in Sweden for several years to study and work, I can attest to the fact that Sweden has a serious issue with the "quality" of immigrants.

    Immigration can be a wonderful thing but in Sweden's case they have let in a high level of what I'd only describe as economic immigrants over the past 10-20 years. Most of them are there to just leech off Sweden's very VERY generous benefits system. They do not intend to ever work. Most of them are from countries with certain "cultures" which clash with the Swedish way of life.

    Unfortunately, I've also been on the receiving end of harrassment and physical abuse when I was there by non-Swedes. I never encountered one issue with Swedish people (or those immigrants at least intergrated in to Swedish society). One evening a pair of men, who were speaking in an eastern-european language, followed me from a grocery store to near my apartment until I told them to basically f*** off. I was absolutely petrified.

    One time I walked past a group of men who were not speaking Swedish with each other, and looked to be Arabic, shouted something at me (not in Swedish) to get my attention. I ignored them. So they threw a bottle of juice at me which narrowly missed my head. Also had a group of non-Swedes harrass me in a queue at a theme park in Stockholm. I was also harrassed on the trams many, many times that I lost count and eventually purchased a car instead. These incidents were with men who I'd describe as north-African origin.

    I've lived in both London and Manchester and have never ever encountered these issues with immigrants in either cities and some of my closest friends are immigrants to the UK. I feel that I can travel on the tube...walk down the street in the evening...and not encounter these issues. Of course these things can happen anywhere in the world, but I never in my wildest dreams expected to feel so unsafe. Sweden regularly tops the charts as one of the best countries to live in the world. Expect to see them steadily decline over the next decade...

    Sweden isn't great opportunity wise, however, it is a beautiful country with a very very generous benefits system. The UK has both opportunities and good benefits. As a result most of Sweden's immigrants are only there for the latter. I may add that I only got work through a friend or else I would not have gone there.

    It's such a shame because Sweden is such a beautiful country with beautiful people and I feel that it is destroying itself. I have spoken with so many native Swedes over the years who all felt the same way. They felt that Sweden is going down the pan but can't speak out because you will be tarnished with the "racist brush". Even the news outlets there hardly report rapes or attacks if they're by someone who is not a native - and they will most certainly not mention race. I distinctly remember being told to not cycle near such-and-such part of town, because it was purely immigrants and women were regularly attacked. We also had cars set on fire outside our apartments and when the fire brigade came, they threw bricks at them. Not even kidding. And yes, the instigators were not Swedish.

    Anyway, thought I'd give my ten pence as someone who's seen and has been on the receiving end of this type of behaviour. It's actually very sad to see this happening to a great country - but they need to stop being such a bloody push-over.

    TL;DR - sorry didn't realise it was so long. But thought I'd give a personal experience of living in Sweden as a female.
    I think the problem is how they are integrated into society. I think Britain is heading down a dangerous path of NOT integrating immigrants and viewing them as not British, with the current Tory government and the rise of UKIP they are seen as "different". I can't speak for sweden but I have lived (and currently live) in a western European country that I won't name where they are not opened with open arms and there is a lot of xenophobia, so they do not integrate. I experience DAILY harassment above all from these north african immigrant men because it's not typically in their culture to have respect for women, and in turn it makes the local people also treat women in a similar way. I have never felt so nervous walking home at night as I do here and I come from a big city full of immigrants in England. Even during the day me and my female friends are shouted at, cat called, followed and even touched by men sometimes. It makes you feel really uncomfortable and unless you've experienced it I don't think you really understand how gross it makes you feel. Immigrants are not the problem, the country into which they are moving is.
    Multiculturalism is the way forward. Welcome them into the country and teach them when they come to their new country that disrespecting women is not a good aspect of their culture, but integrate the good parts of their culture ie. community living and friendliness into ours so we all improve!

    Just a disclaimer I am talking about the immigrant aspect of sexual harassment, they are by no means the only people who do it in a country. Also I know it's not just north africans AND I know many lovely north african, they are just the main immigrant/perpetrator where I live and I know many cultures outside the western world have even worse respect for women.
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    Slur walks came about because of such well meant advice from a police official didn't it?

    Never thought of it before but it would be interesting to see if a group a of left wing slut walkers would put their money where their mouth is and slutwalk certain areas of say, Malmo.
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    (Original post by Moura)
    I think the problem is how they are integrated into society. I think Britain is heading down a dangerous path of NOT integrating immigrants and viewing them as British, with the current Tory government and the rise of UKIP they are seen as "different". I can't speak for sweden but I have lived (and currently live) in a western European country that I won't name where they are not opened with open arms and there is a lot of xenophobia, so they do not integrate. I experience DAILY harassment above all from these north african immigrant men because it's not typically in their culture to have respect for women, and in turn it makes the local people also treat women in a similar way. I have never felt so nervous walking home at night as I do here and I come from a big city full of immigrants in England. Even during the day me and my female friends are shouted at, cat called, followed and even touched by men sometimes. It makes you feel really uncomfortable and unless you've experienced it I don't think you really understand how gross it makes you feel. Immigrants are not the problem, the country into which they are moving is.
    Multiculturalism is the way forward. Welcome them into the country and teach them when they come to their new country that disrespecting women is not a good aspect of their culture, but integrate the good parts of their culture ie. community living and friendliness into ours so we all improve!

    Just a disclaimer I am talking about the immigrant aspect of sexual harassment, they are by no means the only people who do it in a country. Also I know it's not just north africans AND I know many lovely north african, they are just the main immigrant/perpetrator where I live and I know many cultures outside the western world have even worse respect for women.
    You are an utter idiot if you think that "Multiculturalism", is going to make them behave and not sexually harass (or worse) women.
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    Sorry, I see what you mean and I agree.

    Ironically from my own personal experience both online and itrw, the people that constantly spout that we live in a rape culture here in the UK are the same ones that go quiet or deflect when ever Rochdale, and countless other rape gang towns comes up.
    I have never understood how they square it in their own mind.
    As in they don't want to address the cultural issues do you mean?
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    (Original post by elise10)
    As someone who lived in Sweden for several years to study and work, I can attest to the fact that Sweden has a serious issue with the "quality" of immigrants.

    Immigration can be a wonderful thing but in Sweden's case they have let in a high level of what I'd only describe as economic immigrants over the past 10-20 years. Most of them are there to just leech off Sweden's very VERY generous benefits system. They do not intend to ever work. Most of them are from countries with certain "cultures" which clash with the Swedish way of life.

    Unfortunately, I've also been on the receiving end of harrassment and physical abuse when I was there by non-Swedes. I never encountered one issue with Swedish people (or those immigrants at least intergrated in to Swedish society). One evening a pair of men, who were speaking in an eastern-european language, followed me from a grocery store to near my apartment until I told them to basically f*** off. I was absolutely petrified.

    One time I walked past a group of men who were not speaking Swedish with each other, and looked to be Arabic, shouted something at me (not in Swedish) to get my attention. I ignored them. So they threw a bottle of juice at me which narrowly missed my head. Also had a group of non-Swedes harrass me in a queue at a theme park in Stockholm. I was also harrassed on the trams many, many times that I lost count and eventually purchased a car instead. These incidents were with men who I'd describe as north-African origin.

    I've lived in both London and Manchester and have never ever encountered these issues with immigrants in either cities and some of my closest friends are immigrants to the UK. I feel that I can travel on the tube...walk down the street in the evening...and not encounter these issues. Of course these things can happen anywhere in the world, but I never in my wildest dreams expected to feel so unsafe. Sweden regularly tops the charts as one of the best countries to live in the world. Expect to see them steadily decline over the next decade...

    Sweden isn't great opportunity wise, however, it is a beautiful country with a very very generous benefits system. The UK has both opportunities and good benefits. As a result most of Sweden's immigrants are only there for the latter. I may add that I only got work through a friend or else I would not have gone there.

    It's such a shame because Sweden is such a beautiful country with beautiful people and I feel that it is destroying itself. I have spoken with so many native Swedes over the years who all felt the same way. They felt that Sweden is going down the pan but can't speak out because you will be tarnished with the "racist brush". Even the news outlets there hardly report rapes or attacks if they're by someone who is not a native - and they will most certainly not mention race. I distinctly remember being told to not cycle near such-and-such part of town, because it was purely immigrants and women were regularly attacked. We also had cars set on fire outside our apartments and when the fire brigade came, they threw bricks at them. Not even kidding. And yes, the instigators were not Swedish.

    Anyway, thought I'd give my ten pence as someone who's seen and has been on the receiving end of this type of behaviour. It's actually very sad to see this happening to a great country - but they need to stop being such a bloody push-over.

    TL;DR - sorry didn't realise it was so long. But thought I'd give a personal experience of living in Sweden as a female.
    On the contrar Elise NTL; DR (not too long, did read it) and a very good read too.
    You see post from both sides here but most, like, me are only spouting what they have read . It is good to see somebody talking about their life experiences.
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    (Original post by Phipp91)
    You are an utter idiot if you think that "Multiculturalism", is going to make them behave and not sexually harass (or worse) women.
    1. There is no need for personal remarks
    2. I personally think it is. If you move to a country permanently you should, or at least your children should, identify as a person of that new country if you are really going to settle there. In turn, we cannot expect people to just abandon their old culture, it's so interlinked with personal identity and beliefs. As someone who is currently living in a foreign country there is no way I would leave behind my British culture and if I were to have children here, while I know they would feel a part of this new country, they would still be influenced by my own British culture. I would say it takes a few generations of a family to completely forget about the old culture you once had. Therefore the best way forward is to welcome and accept new cultures but draw the line at negative things such as disrespect for women by teaching how this is not something you can hang on to if you are living in this country and educating that women are not second class citizens.

    It is not so long ago that British people held the same opinions about women (and I'm sure you can find quite a few men who hold on the these views). Opinions can change with education.
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    (Original post by Moura)
    1. There is no need for personal remarks
    2. I personally think it is. If you move to a country permanently you should, or at least your children should, identify as a person of that new country if you are really going to settle there. In turn, we cannot expect people to just abandon their old culture, it's so interlinked with personal identity and beliefs. As someone who is currently living in a foreign country there is no way I would leave behind my British culture and if I were to have children here, while I know they would feel a part of this new country, they would still be influenced by my own British culture. I would say it takes a few generations of a family to completely forget about the old culture you once had. Therefore the best way forward is to welcome and accept new cultures but draw the line at negative things such as disrespect for women by teaching how this is not something you can hang on to if you are living in this country and educating that women are not second class citizens.

    It is not so long ago that British people held the same opinions about women (and I'm sure you can find quite a few men who hold on the these views). Opinions can change with education.
    Yes of course everyone needs to be educated on women's rights etc. But we should NOT be turning a blind eye on the matter, based simply on their religion/ culture/ race, for fear of being branded a "bigot", as is the case in Sweden (and many other European countries).

    To be quite honest, what good is multiculturalism going to bring to a country anyway? (Aside from some different types of food, which doesn't even need immigration anyway!) History has proven time and time again, that different groups of people with a significantly different cultural value, do not live together well. This can even be seen in today's society, with the phenomenon of white flight and creation of ghettoes. I don't even think it's the fact that the migrants aren't white, it's their backwards culture that is unappealing to the indigenous population.
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    (Original post by Moura)
    I think the problem is how they are integrated into society. I think Britain is heading down a dangerous path of NOT integrating immigrants and viewing them as not British, with the current Tory government and the rise of UKIP they are seen as "different". I can't speak for sweden but I have lived (and currently live) in a western European country that I won't name where they are not opened with open arms and there is a lot of xenophobia, so they do not integrate. I experience DAILY harassment above all from these north african immigrant men because it's not typically in their culture to have respect for women, and in turn it makes the local people also treat women in a similar way. I have never felt so nervous walking home at night as I do here and I come from a big city full of immigrants in England. Even during the day me and my female friends are shouted at, cat called, followed and even touched by men sometimes. It makes you feel really uncomfortable and unless you've experienced it I don't think you really understand how gross it makes you feel. Immigrants are not the problem, the country into which they are moving is.
    Multiculturalism is the way forward. Welcome them into the country and teach them when they come to their new country that disrespecting women is not a good aspect of their culture, but integrate the good parts of their culture ie. community living and friendliness into ours so we all improve!

    Just a disclaimer I am talking about the immigrant aspect of sexual harassment, they are by no means the only people who do it in a country. Also I know it's not just north africans AND I know many lovely north african, they are just the main immigrant/perpetrator where I live and I know many cultures outside the western world have even worse respect for women.

    I agree that it does make you feel gross and I am sorry that you have experienced this too albeit elsewhere in Europe. You don't forget it.

    With regards to intergration, I do agree that this is the pitfall of multiculturism.

    However, with regards to Sweden (as I am familiar with this country), the vast majority of immigrants who go there do so to claim their infamously awesome benefits and usually choose to live and socialise with other immigrants from same/similar backgrounds. They must attend SFI classes (swedish language classes, which are 99% african/western asian - I know because I went to them and was one of only two western european people out of 40). The majority do not want to work, which of course limits intergration further with native Swedes, and they basically "stick with their own" out of choice.

    I have no doubt that there are some who would intergrate if given the opportunity. But in my experience, the majority do not and choose to live the life of Riley by living off the state, living in soviet-style blocks of flats populated by other immigrants and push their culture on to the Swedish culture when they go out e.g. asking Swedish girls for sex, following them and harrassing them.

    One big, big factor that is particular to Sweden, is that they had a tiny population to start with. Basically all of Sweden could fit in London - the population is roughly the same (about 1 million less in London, I think). Mix this with a huge influx of immigrants from countries with different attitudes, cultures, religions...and you're asking for trouble. They really need to buckle down!

    In any case, a country should force intergration to help ease this but in Swedens case, the most of immigrants simply don't want to. It's the truth.
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    (Original post by Phipp91)
    Yes of course everyone needs to be educated on women's rights etc. But we should NOT be turning a blind eye on the matter, based simply on their religion/ culture/ race, for fear of being branded a "bigot", as is the case in Sweden (and many other European countries).

    To be quite honest, what good is multiculturalism going to bring to a country anyway? (Aside from some different types of food, which doesn't even need immigration anyway!) History has proven time and time again, that different groups of people with a significantly different cultural value, do not live together well. This can even be seen in today's society, with the phenomenon of white flight and creation of ghettoes. I don't even think it's the fact that the migrants aren't white, it's their backwards culture that is unappealing to the indigenous population.
    I didn't say turn a blind eye to it? I said welcome the good aspects (of which there are actually many) but educate against the bad aspects of the new culture such as disrespect of women so that disappears, or at least is significantly lessened.

    Do you actually think that? I think the UK is a prime example of it working... we're a whole melting pot of cultures. Not just now but for centuries we have been made up of loads of different cultures. No country is perfect because horrible people exist no matter what culture. If both sides are welcoming and open minded (which most immigrants I know in the UK are) then there is no problem.

    With your attitude no wonder you have experienced being called a bigot. We are all human and we need to be open minded.
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    (Original post by elise10)
    I agree that it does make you feel gross and I am sorry that you have experienced this too albeit elsewhere in Europe. You don't forget it.

    With regards to intergration, I do agree that this is the pitfall of multiculturism.

    However, with regards to Sweden (as I am familiar with this country), the vast majority of immigrants who go there do so to claim their infamously awesome benefits and usually choose to live and socialise with other immigrants from same/similar backgrounds. They must attend SFI classes (swedish language classes, which are 99% african/western asian - I know because I went to them and was one of only two western european people out of 40). The majority do not want to work, which of course limits intergration further with native Swedes, and they basically "stick with their own" out of choice.

    I have no doubt that there are some who would intergrate if given the opportunity. But in my experience, the majority do not and choose to live the life of Riley by living off the state, living in soviet-style blocks of flats populated by other immigrants and push their culture on to the Swedish culture when they go out e.g. asking Swedish girls for sex, following them and harrassing them.

    One big, big factor that is particular to Sweden, is that they had a tiny population to start with. Basically all of Sweden could fit in London - the population is roughly the same (about 1 million less in London, I think). Mix this with a huge influx of immigrants from countries with different attitudes, cultures, religions...and you're asking for trouble. They really need to buckle down!

    In any case, a country should force intergration to help ease this but in Swedens case, the most of immigrants simply don't want to. It's the truth.
    That sounds like a problem with the way Sweden is run. If you are coming from a place where there is nothing really for you to a place where they give you free money for free straight away (if that is the case) and not enough jobs for the influx of people then that is going to attract lazy people who don't care about this new place they are moving to.

    Generally speaking, most immigrants work really hard in the UK as they know how lucky they are to be there and they want to improve their life and the lives of their family. Most immigrants I know do jobs that are really long hours, poorly paid and unpleasant. They do it so they can live because normally it's a much better opportunity, better pay and better security that wherever they're from and they want to send money back to their family in their old country a lot of the time. I think the view that immigrants are "stealing" all the benefits in the UK is a really really wrong one. In fact the people who generally say this usually are also the ones saying "immigrants are stealing our jobs"... so they haven't really thought that one through.
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    (Original post by Moura)
    I didn't say turn a blind eye to it? I said welcome the good aspects (of which there are actually many) but educate against the bad aspects of the new culture such as disrespect of women so that disappears, or at least is significantly lessened.

    Do you actually think that? I think the UK is a prime example of it working... we're a whole melting pot of cultures. Not just now but for centuries we have been made up of loads of different cultures. No country is perfect because horrible people exist no matter what culture. If both sides are welcoming and open minded (which most immigrants I know in the UK are) then there is no problem.

    With your attitude no wonder you have experienced being called a bigot. We are all human and we need to be open minded.
    Err... until the 50s, the UK really wasn't that diverse at all. The last mass migration was indeed the Norman conquest! Yeah, some immigrants had arrived between then and the 50s, but not nearly enough to consider Britain/ the UK "A melting pot". Due to our location as an island, I would say we've had considerably less immigration than most other European countries until the 50s!

    OK? I dare you to personally name a benefit that multiculturalism explicitly/ is only able to bring in itself? And yes, I do happen to think that. Why am I not allowed to want to live in a country that remains culturally English? Also, good luck trying to push multiculturalism in ISIS/ Saudi Arabia, especially if you're female...

    And where in my post did I say I was personally called a bigot!?
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    (Original post by Moura)
    So... not only are we not allowed to be liberated with the clothes we wear, the way we behave and where we go... now we can't even be free to enjoy our time how we like? This is the main issue I have with the whole "if you flash your cash around you're at fault for getting robbed" comparison... no! Police need to implement more patrols and the government needs to have more awareness in school about sexual harassment in all forms and why it is completely wrong and how it affects its victims! Men aren't all natural rapists but some have been brought up with such little respect for women that they think it's ok and that can change with the right education. What should not be taught is that women are at fault for going about their daily lives... going out at night for women should not be risky!
    Do they? I'm sure the perpetrators are perfectly aware that it is wrong.

    Besides, most (I'm not exaggerating) crimes are committed by people who haven't passed through Swedish schools
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    (Original post by Moura)
    That sounds like a problem with the way Sweden is run. If you are coming from a place where there is nothing really for you to a place where they give you free money for free straight away (if that is the case) and not enough jobs for the influx of people then that is going to attract lazy people who don't care about this new place they are moving to.

    Generally speaking, most immigrants work really hard in the UK as they know how lucky they are to be there and they want to improve their life and the lives of their family. Most immigrants I know do jobs that are really long hours, poorly paid and unpleasant. They do it so they can live because normally it's a much better opportunity, better pay and better security that wherever they're from and they want to send money back to their family in their old country a lot of the time. I think the view that immigrants are "stealing" all the benefits in the UK is a really really wrong one. In fact the people who generally say this usually are also the ones saying "immigrants are stealing our jobs"... so they haven't really thought that one through.
    Hence why I said in my previous message that they need to stop being such a push-over and stop letting so many of the scroungers in in the first place.

    Sweden's benefit system has helped many of it's natives, and plenty of it's "good" immigrants and it is what makes it one of the best countries in the world to live in. There is nothing that should be changed about its benefits system just because of those who come and abuse it. That just ruins it for those that actually need it e.g. someone who's lost their job through no fault of their own, and needs financial assistance.

    But...back to the whole point of this thread. Attacks of a sexual nature have increased in Sweden due to reasons which are obvious.
    Men from countries where sexual harrassment is the norm + women who are used to dressing liberally as they please = men who think it's totally acceptable to harrass women. The answer? Don't bloody let so many in in the first place and don't offer them money on a platter.

    Buckle up Sweden and grow some balls before you're totally destroyed.
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    (Original post by Phipp91)

    OK? I dare you to personally name a benefit that multiculturalism explicitly/ is only able to bring in itself? And yes, I do happen to think that. Why am I not allowed to want to live in a country that remains culturally English? Also, good luck trying to push multiculturalism in ISIS/ Saudi Arabia, especially if you're female...

    And where in my post did I say I was personally called a bigot!?
    Gone in too low...should have asked for three examples. 😁
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    (Original post by Moura)
    I think the problem is how they are integrated into society. I think Britain is heading down a dangerous path of NOT integrating immigrants and viewing them as not British, with the current Tory government and the rise of UKIP they are seen as "different". I can't speak for sweden but I have lived (and currently live) in a western European country that I won't name where they are not opened with open arms and there is a lot of xenophobia, so they do not integrate. I experience DAILY harassment above all from these north african immigrant men because it's not typically in their culture to have respect for women, and in turn it makes the local people also treat women in a similar way. I have never felt so nervous walking home at night as I do here and I come from a big city full of immigrants in England. Even during the day me and my female friends are shouted at, cat called, followed and even touched by men sometimes. It makes you feel really uncomfortable and unless you've experienced it I don't think you really understand how gross it makes you feel. Immigrants are not the problem, the country into which they are moving is.
    Multiculturalism is the way forward. Welcome them into the country and teach them when they come to their new country that disrespecting women is not a good aspect of their culture, but integrate the good parts of their culture ie. community living and friendliness into ours so we all improve!

    Just a disclaimer I am talking about the immigrant aspect of sexual harassment, they are by no means the only people who do it in a country. Also I know it's not just north africans AND I know many lovely north african, they are just the main immigrant/perpetrator where I live and I know many cultures outside the western world have even worse respect for women.
    Actually a far far bigger reason for these problems and lack of integration etc is that they don't have to and they can do whatever they want. The reason being people like you are determined to let them get away with their crap.
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    (Original post by caravaggio2)
    Ironically from my own personal experience both online and itrw, the people that constantly spout that we live in a rape culture here in the UK are the same ones that go quiet or deflect when ever Rochdale, and countless other rape gang towns comes up.
    I have never understood how they square it in their own mind.
    This is true. Exposes the sanctimonious nonsense for what it is. It makes you wonder what their game is.
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    Have you ever seen an average lass try to handle a gun/knife? (sorry ladies, realtalk). They'd mostly just end up injuring themselves/having them used against them. This is not a workable, never mind desirable/sustainable, solution

    It's a well known fact that women shouldn't try with knives etc in that kind of situation because of how often it actually gets turned on them. You're better off kicking as hard as you can in the leg to disable, possibly go for the balls/eyes too, then just run and make a lot of noise.
 
 
 
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