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Why and how can you believe in God ? Watch

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    I ask this as a Catholic who recently has lost all faith. My grandad was an amazing man he was a kind and hard working man he gave to charity he went to church. he died of cancer last week. He suffered greatly I was with him till the end but to see him suffer was horrific. I struggled at his funeral when our priest was talking about God because quite frankly why did this amazing God let my wonderful kind grandad suffer so badly and die in such a painful way ? I'm having a crisis of faith but I have completely lost my faith so I'm asking why does God let people suffer ? Surely a good God wohld have let him fallen asleep peacefully not die in pain ?
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    You're not going to find anything to reconcile faith on here. The best explanation from a theological standpoint is that God works in mysterious ways, which is clearly a cop out answer.


    Sorry for your loss though :/
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    "It is God's will"
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    Faith exists only comfort stupid people who are scared of death. Death is natural. Death is Life's brother. For life to happen there must be death and for death to happen life has to be given.

    to put its short only retarded passive simpletons believe in faith, why choose faith (which is by definition strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.) when we have science
    it never ceases to amaze me.
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    I'm an atheist and are amazed by the percentage of the population that still believe one man created everything and continues to listen to everyone's prayers etc.

    I can give you the answer that many Christians would give you though, without mountains there are no valleys. That God's way is mysterious and that every action has a greater meaning. That god punishes people who sin (altho this wouldnt be the case with you grandad) Or god isnt the creater of evil and suffering he is the creator of humans, what those humans then do is not under his/her control.

    I would tell you that your grandad died in pain because he had cancer and that is what the sickness does, I've had quite a few family members who passed away from cancer, some more in pain than others. I'd tell you that god isn't real and it's just a very nasty disease, that with enough research will one day get fixed. I hope your grandad rests in peace, don't think too much about why he suffered before he died but rather focus on the life that he had and how he is not in pain now.
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    I guess thats just how death works it can happen at any time and being a good person doesn't make it better but i believe that being a good person does decide whether you get to heaven or not and that all types of death are painful. I guess everything happens for a reason.
    It can be hard believing it is for me a lot as well, but my faith always comes back after praying and going to church. Try these things and see how you feel about it. I also used to read the bible, usually you will find some of the answers you are looking for in there.
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    (Original post by Mimi1233)
    I ask this as a Catholic who recently has lost all faith. My grandad was an amazing man he was a kind and hard working man he gave to charity he went to church. he died of cancer last week. He suffered greatly I was with him till the end but to see him suffer was horrific. I struggled at his funeral when our priest was talking about God because quite frankly why did this amazing God let my wonderful kind grandad suffer so badly and die in such a painful way ? I'm having a crisis of faith but I have completely lost my faith so I'm asking why does God let people suffer ? Surely a good God wohld have let him fallen asleep peacefully not die in pain ?
    I am very sorry for your loss, OP, and that your grandfather experienced so much pain before his death.

    The mystery of suffering is precisely that: a mystery. You are not going to find satisfying answers on TSR - such questions are beyond all of us :sadnod:

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    (Original post by Mimi1233)
    I ask this as a Catholic who recently has lost all faith. My grandad was an amazing man he was a kind and hard working man he gave to charity he went to church. he died of cancer last week. He suffered greatly I was with him till the end but to see him suffer was horrific. I struggled at his funeral when our priest was talking about God because quite frankly why did this amazing God let my wonderful kind grandad suffer so badly and die in such a painful way ? I'm having a crisis of faith but I have completely lost my faith so I'm asking why does God let people suffer ? Surely a good God wohld have let him fallen asleep peacefully not die in pain ?
    The problem of evil exists here....

    simply it's more rational to believe in no God that a "God" who "works in mysterious ways" and performs useless miracles and doesn't actually help people when needed, this then brings in the problem of free will etc i could go on but it's so much easier to believe there's no God because then you'll realise that you're not fighting for a man in the sky who in modern times does nothing
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    At the end of the day mate; this is the real world - **** happens to everyone, it's unfortunate that the best people seem to get it worse, but I'm afraid that's just how it works out. I'm sorry, but as an atheist my stance is: **** happens, believing in some bloke who'll supposedly stop it won't make a single iota of a difference.

    Sorry about your granddad, and sorry if this came off as harsh but I used to be Christian and it was bullying that made me an atheist.
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    (Original post by HeimIX)
    Faith exists only comfort stupid people who are scared of death. Death is natural. Death is Life's brother. For life to happen there must be death and for death to happen life has to be given.

    to put its short only retarded passive simpletons believe in faith, why choose faith (which is by definition strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.) when we have science
    it never ceases to amaze me.
    Yay, religious bullying, woop.
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    (Original post by Longshot700)
    Yay, religious bullying, woop.
    How is educating stupid people bullying, well i guess a retarded theist would never understand. Sigh
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    (Original post by HeimIX)
    How is educating stupid people bullying, well i guess a retarded theist would never understand. Sigh
    "They deserve it because they're stupid." Bullies don't know they're bullies and like to make cheap excuses to defend themselves.

    Sigh.
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    (Original post by HeimIX)
    Faith exists only comfort stupid people who are scared of death. Death is natural. Death is Life's brother. For life to happen there must be death and for death to happen life has to be given.

    to put its short only retarded passive simpletons believe in faith, why choose faith (which is by definition strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.) when we have science
    it never ceases to amaze me.

    For life to happen there must be death - not sure what you mean by this.
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    (Original post by Mimi1233)
    I ask this as a Catholic who recently has lost all faith. My grandad was an amazing man he was a kind and hard working man he gave to charity he went to church. he died of cancer last week. He suffered greatly I was with him till the end but to see him suffer was horrific. I struggled at his funeral when our priest was talking about God because quite frankly why did this amazing God let my wonderful kind grandad suffer so badly and die in such a painful way ? I'm having a crisis of faith but I have completely lost my faith so I'm asking why does God let people suffer ? Surely a good God wohld have let him fallen asleep peacefully not die in pain ?
    I am sorry you lost your grandad, I lost a very close friend to cancer last year so I do know how painful it is, I think about her everyday.

    "why does God let people suffer"? Any response will seem inadequate.

    From my perspective, I look at Jesus and see a completely sinless and innocent man who suffered death on a cross. Not because of anything he did wrong, he is the only person in the history of mankind who did everything right.

    There is a verse in the bible that says

    When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    We know somethings but we don't know or understand a lot in this life but we do know that everything God created was good. God did not create suffering
    yet at the same time he allows it.

    When we experience a tragedy we can decide to do one of two things. Either we run to God or run away.

    I've learnt to run to Him.
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    (Original post by Mimi1233)
    I ask this as a Catholic who recently has lost all faith. My grandad was an amazing man he was a kind and hard working man he gave to charity he went to church. he died of cancer last week. He suffered greatly I was with him till the end but to see him suffer was horrific. I struggled at his funeral when our priest was talking about God because quite frankly why did this amazing God let my wonderful kind grandad suffer so badly and die in such a painful way ? I'm having a crisis of faith but I have completely lost my faith so I'm asking why does God let people suffer ? Surely a good God wohld have let him fallen asleep peacefully not die in pain ?
    Faith means you know your grandad is in a better place now, hes up there with the Lord. RIP
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    You've come to the wrong place here I'm afraid- we believe in science and evidence. There are answers to what you are asking, by they are about as ******** as religion and just lead to more ridiculous questions.

    I'm sorry for you loss, at least you know he is no longer in pain X


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    (Original post by thefatone)
    The problem of evil exists here....

    simply it's more rational to believe in no God that a "God" who "works in mysterious ways" and performs useless miracles and doesn't actually help people when needed, this then brings in the problem of free will etc i could go on but it's so much easier to believe there's no God because then you'll realise that you're not fighting for a man in the sky who in modern times does nothing
    Can you really call anything evil if there is no God? I encourage you to really think through what you're saying. It doesn't work.

    If you accept that God exists, only then can you ask the question why does God do/allow things that seem to be immoral? This would lead to the questions what is moral to do, and what is not moral? How can I know what is moral? Who makes the moral law?

    If you reject the idea that God exists, then you cannot ask any question about the morality of the god presented in the bible, or any other proposed god. Morality doesn't exist, all that is is simply the natural world: cells, indifferent synapses firing. There would be no right or wrong, simply occurrences. In other words: What you're doing is trying to disprove the thing you need to make the point/ask the question.

    I mean to be respectful to you so I hope this doesn't come across as rude. I also recognise that most posters on this thread agree with and have voiced your ideas, even though they don't work. It's fascinating how people think they are rational and reasonable, but they often aren't, and that can be easily demonstrated. I'd be happy to chat with you about some more flaws in your post if you like (such as, referring to a god as a man, asserting that if there is a god, he's not intervening, implying that it being 'much easier to believe there's no God' means that he doesn't exist, asserting that it is more rational to be atheist without demonstrating how, nor showing where the basis for rationality and logic can come from within an atheistic worldview).
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    (Original post by Mimi1233)
    I ask this as a Catholic who recently has lost all faith. My grandad was an amazing man he was a kind and hard working man he gave to charity he went to church. he died of cancer last week. He suffered greatly I was with him till the end but to see him suffer was horrific. I struggled at his funeral when our priest was talking about God because quite frankly why did this amazing God let my wonderful kind grandad suffer so badly and die in such a painful way ? I'm having a crisis of faith but I have completely lost my faith so I'm asking why does God let people suffer ? Surely a good God wohld have let him fallen asleep peacefully not die in pain ?
    First, let me make it clear where I'm coming from. I would say that I'm a believer in Jesus. I think I would be considered a protestant by Catholics, particularly because I think that Jesus specifically taught against much of what the Catholic church teaches. I personally don't identify myself as in one specific denomination within protestantism, or otherwise, although I go to church.

    Now I ask you some things. Brought up as a Catholic, did you ever feel like you could ask a Catholic your question, how can a good God let people suffer? Have you ever googled the question? - it's not a new question. In fact, there are examples of people asking God the same question in the bible itself e.g. Habakkuk 1:1-4. In that particular example, God then answers the question. Is the reason why you don't believe in Catholicism because you haven't been given a convincing/satisfying answer to the question?

    You see I don't think it is. I don't think you'd suddenly become a devout Catholic if someone answered the question.

    So can I ask about you? Do you believe any Christian teaching? What do you believe in?
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    (Original post by Pride)
    Can you really call anything evil if there is no God? I encourage you to really think through what you're saying. It doesn't work.

    If you accept that God exists, only then can you ask the question why does God do/allow things that seem to be immoral? This would lead to the questions what is moral to do, and what is not moral? How can I know what is moral? Who makes the moral law?

    If you reject the idea that God exists, then you cannot ask any question about the morality of the god presented in the bible, or any other proposed god. Morality doesn't exist, all that is is simply the natural world: cells, indifferent synapses firing. There would be no right or wrong, simply occurrences. In other words: What you're doing is trying to disprove the thing you need to make the point/ask the question.

    I mean to be respectful to you so I hope this doesn't come across as rude. I also recognise that most posters on this thread agree with and have voiced your ideas, even though they don't work. It's fascinating how people think they are rational and reasonable, but they often aren't, and that can be easily demonstrated. I'd be happy to chat with you about some more flaws in your post if you like (such as, referring to a god as a man, asserting that if there is a god, he's not intervening, implying that it being 'much easier to believe there's no God' means that he doesn't exist, asserting that it is more rational to be atheist without demonstrating how, nor showing where the basis for rationality and logic can come from within an atheistic worldview).
    I'm sorry but in what way does it not work? You are saying that without God there is nothing with which we can make a comparison to determine what is and is not good and as such if someone says they do not believe in God they cannot highlight inconsistencies in the nature of God. God is a theory and as such people can have an opinion upon it. As an atheist i am perfectly able to formulate an opinion based upon the evidence given to me by theists on God. If you don't believe in God you treat the situation as so: IF God existed then the problems would be... You don't come up to an argument saying i don't believe in God and therefore morality does not exist making this argument pointless.

    Second point is that your ideas that we require God in order to decipher what is good and what is bad is entirely flawed. You are right that all there is is indifferent synapses but to then state that that means we as humans have no moral sense of our own is ridiculous. These indifferent synapses are interpreted and acted upon. To state that we have no morality without God is to say that none of out emotions are real. Happiness is indifferent, anger is indifferent and sadness is...you guessed it-indifferent. Morality is not a physical thing, it is a social construct. Humanists have no reliance upon God to work out what is moral and what is not so would you say they are just acting randomly because all they can see is an indifferent world where everything they do is nothing more than a morally blank canvas. No, they can see the social construct. If morality were made by God and bestowed upon us then why do we not live in an absolutist world-filled with 7 billion people all thinking EXACTLY the same.
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    (Original post by thefatone)
    I'm sorry but in what way does it not work? You are saying that without God there is nothing with which we can make a comparison to determine what is and is not good and as such if someone says they do not believe in God they cannot highlight inconsistencies in the nature of God.
    I wouldn't use the word 'comparison'. I'd use the word 'framework' or 'standard' or 'anchor'. Someone needs to set the rules or the basis from which morality is objectively (truly) true. But anyway, do you see here, you've 'moved the goalpost'? You did not say you were 'highlighting inconsistencies' in the claims made in the bible. You did not quote the bible and say this is how the god of the bible disobeyed his own law and therefore did something immoral. That would be highlighting inconsistency. Instead, you said 'the problem of evil exists here', ie implying that the proposed god of the bible is immoral/evil - despite the fact that morality is simply a matter of opinion if there is no god. You talked about how it was easier to believe there is no god. This is what I was replying to. I hope you see the fallacy you have made.

    I also want to point out that in the post I replied to first, you made a point that basically amounts to 'the god of the bible doesn't do things that I would do, therefore he is immoral.' I hope you can see how this is also fallacious.

    God is a theory and as such people can have an opinion upon it. As an atheist i am perfectly able to formulate an opinion based upon the evidence given to me by theists on God. If you don't believe in God you treat the situation as so: IF God existed then the problems would be... You don't come up to an argument saying i don't believe in God and therefore morality does not exist making this argument pointless.
    Indeed, you are entitled to an opinion. My point is that where morality is concerned, that's all you can do: have arbitrary opinions and feelings. 'This feels wrong, that feels right.' 'Why?' 'Well because I say so. I am a bunch of cells, and all around me is physics and chemistry. Therefore I define my own morality.'

    But why not be consistent? In reality, you know that because morality is an invention, a construct, it doesn't actually mean anything. It is insignificant. We are as significant as snails, or a handful of sand. If a snail believed it was special, would it be special? Well of course not. It's the same for us. And if it is the same for us, then the validity of morality falls apart.

    Second point is that your ideas that we require God in order to decipher what is good and what is bad is entirely flawed. You are right that all there is is indifferent synapses but to then state that that means we as humans have no moral sense of our own is ridiculous.
    This is a strawman. I never said that we have no sense of morality of our own. I'm actually saying that atheists have no basis whatsoever for their morality. As I have just explained, it's an arbitrary hunch based on physics and chemistry. It is indifferent and only intent on survival/species propagation, not asking questions like why am I doing this? Is this moral?

    These indifferent synapses are interpreted and acted upon. To state that we have no morality without God is to say that none of out emotions are real.
    now you're implying that morality comes from emotions. Like I said, sure, some people base what they think is right and wrong on how they feel. But this is not a basis for a morality that applies to all, is it? There are obvious problems with setting up a moral code on the basis of our feelings rather than on truth e.g. we open the door to people like Hitler/Stalin, wars, abortions, theft, the list is endless with what becomes acceptable if you base a moral code on feelings.

    Happiness is indifferent, anger is indifferent and sadness is...you guessed it-indifferent. Morality is not a physical thing, it is a social construct. Humanists have no reliance upon God to work out what is moral and what is not so would you say they are just acting randomly because all they can see is an indifferent world where everything they do is nothing more than a morally blank canvas.
    I would never say that humans act randomly.

    No, they can see the social construct. If morality were made by God and bestowed upon us then why do we not live in an absolutist world-filled with 7 billion people all thinking EXACTLY the same.
    Though I believe that God has put in us some recognition of right and wrong, I never suggested that God forces everyone to decide to follow exactly the same moral code. This seems irrelevant to my point (red herring fallacy).

    Again, all I did was demonstrate how your post didn't work, expanding on one problem, and offering to expand on several others if you wanted. Your post uses a concept like objective morality (if it's not objective, then it falls apart because we are talking about reality here - does god exist or does he not - not abstract ideas), and uses it to support the view that there is no god.
 
 
 
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