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    (Original post by Jesus Walks)
    i think one difference between the two is that in saudi arabia women need permission from a male 'guardian' to do near-enough anything, including studying at university.
    Which just furthers the point that the number of female graduates says almost nothing about whether women are oppressed or not. :beard:
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Which just furthers the point that the number of female graduates says almost nothing about whether women are oppressed or not. :beard:
    I wouldn't go that far, a country that has highly educated women is innately less of a ****-hole than a territory governed by Boko Haram, for instance. But yes, such statistics are almost meaningless without a deeper inspection of the context of this proclaimed liberty.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Contrary to what a lot of people who're just dying to be offended by something think, there is no one 'correct' spelling of Muslim/Moslem.

    It's a transliterated word and can therefore be spelled many different ways without any of them being incorrect. When was the last time a Muslim complained about the dozen different ways that people spell 'Muhammad?'
    The word 'Moslem' sounds like a transliteration of another Arabic word which means 'one who does evil' whereas 'Muslim' looks more like the Arabic pronunciation of 'Moooslimb' which is why there is such controversy.


    The fact Brits were willing to go from Muhammadan to Moslem (an honest mistake) to Muslim shows Western tolerance. When I watch the news, I don't feel the West lies about Islam to create hatred, the use of language certainly from European politicians is extremely sanitised, take for example use of the word 'Islamist' or 'extremist' which is clearly used to create a level of separation between terrorists and Muslims on the whole
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    (Original post by Jesus Walks)
    I wouldn't go that far, a country that has highly educated women is innately less of a ****-hole than a territory governed by Boko Haram, for instance. But yes, such statistics are almost meaningless without a deeper inspection of the context of this proclaimed liberty.
    True, but as we've established, it's a non sequitur to say that any country where a large enough proportion of the female population is university-educated must be some egalitarian paradise for women as a consequence of this one fact.
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    When the stated sources include HuffPost and The Guardian, you know we're in or some ********.
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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    The word 'Moslem' sounds like a transliteration of another Arabic word which means 'one who does evil' whereas 'Muslim' looks more like the Arabic pronunciation of 'Moooslimb' which is why there is such controversy.


    The fact Brits were willing to go from Muhammadan to Moslem (an honest mistake) to Muslim shows Western tolerance. When I watch the news, I don't feel the West lies about Islam to create hatred, the use of language certainly from European politicians is extremely sanitised, take for example use of the word 'Islamist' or 'extremist' which is clearly used to create a level of separation between terrorists and Muslims on the whole
    How many of the people who whine about this do you think know the first thing about Arabic beyond being able to read the Koran without knowing what it means? To me, it's a clear-cut case of voluntary offence-taking.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    How many of the people who whine about this do you think know the first thing about Arabic beyond being able to read it without knowing what it means?
    I know it's a slight digression, but I really do wonder why people take such pride in being able to read Arabic words out loud without actually knowing how they correspond to the meaning, the grammar etc
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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    The word 'Moslem' sounds like a transliteration of another Arabic word which means 'one who does evil' whereas 'Muslim' looks more like the Arabic pronunciation of 'Moooslimb' which is why there is such controversy.
    Two points:
    (a) We are writing and speaking English, not Arabic. If we altered our language based on whether a word sounds like a rude word in a foreign language we would never import any words

    (b) "Moslem" is normally pronounced "Muslim".
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Two points:
    (a) We are writing and speaking English, not Arabic. If we altered our language based on whether a word sounds like a rude word in a foreign language we would never import any words

    (b) "Moslem" is normally pronounced "Muslim".
    I've noticed old British people pronounce it 'Mozlem' and Americans say 'Muzlim'
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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    I know it's a slight digression, but I really do wonder why people take such pride in being able to read Arabic words out loud without actually knowing how they correspond to the meaning, the grammar etc
    I presume it's a case of unthinking devotion to the idea of Arab cultural supremacy, which is part and parcel of Islam, in my view. Given the way Islam was spread, I'm not entirely surprised.
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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    I've noticed old British people pronounce it 'Mozlem' and Americans say 'Muzlim'
    It is all irrelevant. I've heard "Moooslim" too. The word is being used to mean "adherent of Islam" in all cases - nothing more, nothing less. That there is an obscure Arabic word that is pronounced somewhat the same but with a different meaning is neither here nor there and completely unknown to 99.9% of English speakers.
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    (Original post by Feel Tha Bern)
    I know it's a slight digression, but I really do wonder why people take such pride in being able to read Arabic words out loud without actually knowing how they correspond to the meaning, the grammar etc
    I am quite sure that there are many people who can recite huge tracts from the Koran in Arabic, but who have never read a translation they can understand and who therefore have no idea what it means.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I am quite sure that there are many people who can recite huge tracts from the Koran in Arabic, but who have never read a translation they can understand and who therefore have no idea what it means.
    As a former Muslim, I can confirm this, for myself and most of my own community. We would memorize numerous tracts of the Quran, with little understanding of its meaning, and the surrounding history/context of such verses. Once I understood the meaning, the context and especially putting Quranic verses in chronological order, whilst taking a more impartial and critical stance, then doubts started to appear.
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    (Original post by Hussm)
    "Go away, I dont like you" sounds like restricting freedom of speech huh.

    *Muslim
    Moslem is a correct and accepted variant of the word Muslim.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I am quite sure that there are many people who can recite huge tracts from the Koran in Arabic, but who have never read a translation they can understand and who therefore have no idea what it means.
    Yet these are often the people who - when others criticise Islam (even when they cite verses in the Qur'an as they've actually bothered to find out what it says) - call them ignorant and uneducated in the subject. Loads on TSR fit this description. Complete plebs.
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    (Original post by Hussm)
    Muslim*
    Mussulman.
    They are just different spellings but all have the same meaning.
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Musselman

    Mohammedans don't get to decide what variants others use, in the same way that kaffirs, kaafir, kuffar, disbelievers, etc don't get to decide we are called by Moslems. It is neither an insult, nor offensive. It is just a different way of saying it.
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    (Original post by Longshot700)
    Just leaving this here. Video got uploaded 3 days ago and I expect a lot of controversy.
    Out of those 10 points, most of them were mere opinion from questionable sources and only addressed the behaviour of individual Muslims, not the nature of Islam. Showing that most Muslims don't do a thing that a right-wing nutjub claimed they do is not "exposing lies about Islam".

    Of the remainder, one claimed that ISIS have nothing to do with Islam. This is demonstrably untrue as much of their actions are justified directly from a literalist, unmodernised reading of the Quran and sunnah. ISIS clearly do no represent most Muslims or even represent the only interpretation of Islam, but they certainly represent one version.

    Another claimed that only only 0.0066% of Muslims "support extremism". The video did not provide a reference for that figure other than mentioning Pew Research, yet every Pew survey that I have seen shows levels of 10-20% expression of "extreme views", going much higher in Middle East/North Africa/South Asia. For example, 29% of Egyptians believe that suicide bombing is often/sometimes justified.

    The final one claims that killing disbelievers is forbidden, and gives two quotes it says are from the Quran. However, they are hadith and refer only to dhimmis (non-believers who pay jizya protection money). The Quran specifically permits killing disbelievers who refuse to submit to Islam. Again, we can all agree that most Muslims do not actually intend to put this permission into practice, however, it is there, in the perfect, universal and immutable Quran - although I have found that some Muslims are completely unaware of it, having not actually read the Quran in a language they understand but been brought up on a sanitised and cherry-picked version of Islam.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Out of those 10 points, most of them were mere opinion from questionable sources and only addressed the behaviour of individual Muslims, not the nature of Islam. Showing that most Muslims don't do a thing that a right-wing nutjub claimed they do is not "exposing lies about Islam".

    Of the remainder, one claimed that ISIS have nothing to do with Islam. This is demonstrably untrue as much of their actions are justified directly from a literalist, unmodernised reading of the Quran and sunnah. ISIS clearly do no represent most Muslims or even represent the only interpretation of Islam, but they certainly represent one version.

    Another claimed that only only 0.0066% of Muslims "support extremism". The video did not provide a reference for that figure other than mentioning Pew Research, yet every Pew survey that I have seen shows levels of 10-20% expression of "extreme views", going much higher in Middle East/North Africa/South Asia. For example, 29% of Egyptians believe that suicide bombing is often/sometimes justified.

    The final one claims that killing disbelievers is forbidden, and gives two quotes it says are from the Quran. However, they are hadith and refer only to dhimmis (non-believers who pay jizya protection money). The Quran specifically permits killing disbelievers who refuse to submit to Islam. Again, we can all agree that most Muslims do not actually intend to put this permission into practice, however, it is there, in the perfect, universal and immutable Quran - although I have found that some Muslims are completely unaware of it, having not actually read the Quran in a language they understand but been brought up on a sanitised and cherry-picked version of Islam.
    Your opinion.
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    (Original post by Longshot700)
    Your opinion.
    Is that your natural reaction to every idea that you don't agree with?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Is that your natural reaction to every idea that you don't agree with?
    Well yeah, since it's their opinion and view.
 
 
 
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