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Is Student Finance Flawed? Watch

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    (Original post by Dinasaurus)
    Most older families own houses in the UK, whereas a young immigrant family who earns more money right now may not have been earning that much for long enough to buy a house and rent costs.

    Some of my poor friends were able to take advantage of old house buying schemes that were around long ago.


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    It's pretty irrelevant though. I've already said taking into account primary household equity is a pointless exercise. One can't simply become homeless for the benefit of accessing their equity.

    And yes, mortgage payments should be taken into account.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Really? The parents on high incomes aren't the people in question here.. Their KIDS are. Their kids haven't worked their butts off to get high incomes yet they have lived in much better quality surroundings, and have had access to several more opportunties without doing anything except being born into a high earning household.

    Lol, a TV isn't going to help someone move from working/underclass to middle class or above.. Middle class kids are already middle class, there's no incentive to help them 'step up'. That's a pretty redundant comparison. You're comparing someone being able to eat and live to a material possession..

    Oh well, tough. They've still had a better life, on average, than the poor kids. The poor kids have probably been working since they've been able to just in order to help out and actually survive. So what if a kid with high income parents has to get a little down in the dirts a bit? That's life and that's the life that poor kids have had to deal with.
    The poor kids are not poor though, I've worked more than any of my 'poor' friends. They didn't need struggle, they had money for everything they wanted, I'm not saying the difference between a family on 10,000 and a family on 100,000.

    I'm talking about the difference between 40,000 and 28,000.

    40,000 for 2 children is less per child than 28,000 for one child. If you add in their cheap as hell house they got like 20 years ago cause their parent is like 50+.

    Someone who has been earning 28k for 30 years probably has more to spare than someone who's been gradually increasing their salary every couple of years.


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    (Original post by Quantex)
    The whole education system is flawed in that in general those who come from better socioeconomic backgrounds do far better from it. It always amazes me that rather than acknowledging that they've had it easy and working to fund their education, they complaint that someone else has a little bit more loan or grant than they do.
    Why shouldn't I find it unfair when someone who went to the same school as me, had the same lifestyle as me, has a way better house than me but will get like £1800 a year more than me at uni.


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    (Original post by Dinasaurus)
    The poor kids are not poor though, I've worked more than any of my 'poor' friends. They didn't need struggle, they had money for everything they wanted, I'm not saying the difference between a family on 10,000 and a family on 100,000.

    I'm talking about the difference between 40,000 and 28,000.

    40,000 for 2 children is less per child than 28,000 for one child. If you add in their cheap as hell house they got like 20 years ago cause their parent is like 50+.

    Someone who has been earning 28k for 30 years probably has more to spare than someone who's been gradually increasing their salary every couple of years.


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    I'm comparing poor (£5-25k) to well off (£70-80k+). The incremental comparisons inbetween aren't significant enough to draw conclusions on.

    Re: the number of kids. That's taken into account already. I believe there's deductions of a couple £k taken out of the post tax salary when calculating the finanl take home pay for student finance.

    The trajectory of someone's earnings on a flat salary is much less than someone progressing upwards.. Sure, living costs and tastes follow the progression but net-net, the person making more every year will be better off.
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    The whole argument of "ow but this family has 10 children" is stupid... The parents made the decision to have extra children and as such lowered the whole families quality of life.

    Can't afford the children on your income? Don't have them.


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    (Original post by Dinasaurus)
    Why shouldn't I find it unfair when someone who went to the same school as me, had the same lifestyle as me, has a way better house than me but will get like £1800 a year more than me at uni.

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    Because your respective parents have different incomes?
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    (Original post by s0mebodymaybe)
    I dont think you understood her comment or you took it the wrong way, no one said you shouldnt get the money (no one is depriving the working class of HE lets not go down this road) No one said working class shouldnt get money. People who go to the same university SHOULD get the same loan. It is not fair to expect someone parents to pay thousands if they cant. Your last point again is basically stupid aswell
    What she said in earlier comments and implied in this one is that people on lower incomes do nothing and get it all handed to them while the poor middle classes slave away and are hard done by. I think everyone should get the same amount of loan but to imply that people on lower incomes don't work hard is some bs.

    My point still stands that most students from middle class backgrounds could get jobs and save money more easily than working class and poorer families. Most of them don't bother to then they whinge and complain.
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    (Original post by somebodymaybe)
    stupid things such as designer shoes or handbags or bottles in clubs to show off when in reality their parents can barely afford the gas bill.
    realest thing I've heard today
    made me chuckle
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    (Original post by NekoAngel13)
    I don't think you realise how little disposable income people on lower incomes have to actually save up. I work 18hrs a week earning £5.30 an hour. That's £95 a week before I take out petrol costs and my contribution towards the bills. I would love to save more money but it's difficult when you live barely above the breadline.

    I can't work more hours because I need the time to study and get good grades and I need down time too. I don't want to burn out. Saving is difficult because there has been months where we've needed my salary to help out. My mum works full time at above minimum wage but it's not enough to cover all of the costs. Rent, food, petrol, gas, electric, t.v, internet, water, council tax etc.

    Your comment is actually really insensitive. When you consider that millions of homes in britain rely upon food banks and second jobs to make ends meet because their pay doesn't make ends meet.
    In some cases no, people on lower incomes can't always just save up.

    It's that kind of mentality that would end up leaving higher education only for the rich, further increasing the pay gap. People in my situation need that money because their wage doesn't make ends meet. Without the extra help god knows what would've happened.

    I'll turn your question back on you.
    Why didn't you get a job and save up? Your parents were in a stable financial position right? You didn't worry about having a roof over your head and food to eat right? You didn't have to work and you chose not to. You could've easily had a job and put away a lot of money.
    This post is spot on.

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    (Original post by NekoAngel13)
    What she said in earlier comments and implied in this one is that people on lower incomes do nothing and get it all handed to them while the poor middle classes slave away and are hard done by. I think everyone should get the same amount of loan but to imply that people on lower incomes don't work hard is some bs.

    My point still stands that most students from middle class backgrounds could get jobs and save money more easily than working class and poorer families. Most of them don't bother to then they whinge and complain.
    THIS ^^^^

    It's absurd.

    How can someone say 'oh but higher income parents worked hard for their money', and have the absolute audacity to think because their parents worked hard they can sail through. When, in reality, the poorer kids both have to work MUCH harder to get good grades (as they're usually in poorer areas with substandard schools) AND have to work part time just to keep the lights on.



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    (Original post by s0mebodymaybe)
    They can afford children on their income, its the working class who are claiming benefits. People can afford 10 kids, but not having to pay £6k for their university each year. are you this stupid
    I agree even working class families should definitely have no more than 1 child... Some none.

    But again why wouldn't a parent think of the costs of education for their children before having more?



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    (Original post by s0mebodymaybe)
    Benefits are pretty much handed to the working class?
    Not if you're above a certain wage and it's dependant on a lot of factors. It doesn't mean that you'll get enough to live on. A lot of families even with benefits and full time jobs can't make ends meet.
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    Oldest son of a family of 8, where all siblings are younger and parents earn, combined, £44000. They are already in serious debt. When I'm at Uni, 80% of my loan will go onto accommodation. I'm unlikely to get any support from my family while I'm there. Chances are, I will have to get a job within the first few weeks otherwise I simply won't have enough to cover the cost of living. Good job, SFE, for not taking into account my fanily's financial state.
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    (Original post by Tinemither)
    Oldest son of a family of 8, where all siblings are younger and parents earn, combined, £44000. They are already in serious debt. When I'm at Uni, 80% of my loan will go onto accommodation. I'm unlikely to get any support from my family while I'm there. Chances are, I will have to get a job within the first few weeks otherwise I simply won't have enough to cover the cost of living. Good job, SFE, for not taking into account my fanily's financial state.
    Don't blame SFE blame your parents for having an outrageous number of children...




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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Really? The parents on high incomes aren't the people in question here.. Their KIDS are. Their kids haven't worked their butts off to get high incomes yet they have lived in much better quality surroundings, and have had access to several more opportunties without doing anything except being born into a high earning household.

    Lol, a TV isn't going to help someone move from working/underclass to middle class or above.. Middle class kids are already middle class, there's no incentive to help them 'step up'. That's a pretty redundant comparison. You're comparing someone being able to eat and live to a material possession..

    Oh well, tough. They've still had a better life, on average, than the poor kids. The poor kids have probably been working since they've been able to just in order to help out and actually survive. So what if a kid with high income parents has to get a little down in the dirts a bit? That's life and that's the life that poor kids have had to deal with.
    That doesn't matter.. The parents worked hard to PROVIDE for their kids. Why do you look down on that? Do you not want to provide for YOUR future kids and ensure they have the best life possible?

    "a little down in the dirts" That's a little patronising, no? If you don't have enough money for something, then you either work for it or you don't get it. We're talking about material things here, not food or shelter. If poor families can't afford something, then that is tough, that is life. They cannot expect to receive the same opportunities as everyone else for free 'just because they're poor'. Otherwise what would be the point in anyone working for anything?
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    (Original post by Jenx301)
    40k is still pretty decent though. My mum had to try and support herself and me and my 2 sisters on her 14k a year job.

    I think there are flaws in the system but the two situations are pretty different, right?
    Yeah I understand 14k and such but in my school at least the poor kids were still on like 28k which is double what you said, they also don't have anyone else to support but can get like 2000 more than someone who gets like 40k.

    Obviously I think for low income should get support but I don't see why my friends who had basically the same life as me can get an extra £2000 a year, that's quite a bit.

    A family on 0 income will get the same loan as one on 25,000. But there's like a £2000 difference between 28k and 40k.


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    It is flawed however one can finetune the system by considering such complications or anomalies. It is not a choice between keeping it the way it is or giving the same amount of money indiscriminately to every family as littlenorthernlass suggests.
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    (Original post by NekoAngel13)

    Your comment is actually really insensitive. When you consider that millions of homes in britain rely upon food banks and second jobs to make ends meet because their pay doesn't make ends meet.
    In some cases no, people on lower incomes can't always just save up.

    It's that kind of mentality that would end up leaving higher education only for the rich, further increasing the pay gap. People in my situation need that money because their wage doesn't make ends meet. Without the extra help god knows what would've happened.

    I'll turn your question back on you.
    Why didn't you get a job and save up? Your parents were in a stable financial position right? You didn't worry about having a roof over your head and food to eat right? You didn't have to work and you chose not to. You could've easily had a job and put away a lot of money.
    I'm not talking about food banks here. I'm talking about material things that we do not need to survive, such as a uni education. What my point was, is that why are poorer students entitled to more money for uni than wealthier students are?

    You can indeed turn your question back on me, and I'll happily answer. I work three jobs, that totals to a god damn number of hours per week, I have saved up lots of money from working minimum wage jobs since I was 18 and left school. So my question back to you is: why should I receive a lower loan than someone straight out of school from a lower income family, and why am I expected to make up the difference in the loans from my own pocket that I have slaved away for? That is not fair.
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    (Original post by Dinasaurus)
    The poor kids are not poor though, I've worked more than any of my 'poor' friends. They didn't need struggle, they had money for everything they wanted, I'm not saying the difference between a family on 10,000 and a family on 100,000.

    I'm talking about the difference between 40,000 and 28,000.

    40,000 for 2 children is less per child than 28,000 for one child. If you add in their cheap as hell house they got like 20 years ago cause their parent is like 50+.

    Someone who has been earning 28k for 30 years probably has more to spare than someone who's been gradually increasing their salary every couple of years.


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    +10. I don't think anybody here is talking about such extremes of 10,000k vs 100,000k. We're talking about a difference of up to like 15k.
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    (Original post by littlenorthernlass)
    That doesn't matter.. The parents worked hard to PROVIDE for their kids. Why do you look down on that? Do you not want to provide for YOUR future kids and ensure they have the best life possible?

    "a little down in the dirts" That's a little patronising, no? If you don't have enough money for something, then you either work for it or you don't get it. We're talking about material things here, not food or shelter. If poor families can't afford something, then that is tough, that is life. They cannot expect to receive the same opportunities as everyone else for free 'just because they're poor'. Otherwise what would be the point in anyone working for anything?
    Oh, so only high income parents work hard to provide for their kids? Really?

    Working hard to provide for your kids doesn't entitle them to sit back and chill.

    It's not patronising. If they don't want to work in order to afford stuff when they've had stuff provided to them already without having to work because their parents earn a lot, that's their problem.

    You fail to understand that being in a higher income bracket is mostly down to luck. Someone can work their absolute assess off and still be on the lowest pay bracket. So you saying they're receiving stuff 'for free' is ignorant. Ignorant of the prior struggle put in to get to the same point as the well off kid.

    I'm sorry but unless you've seen both sides of the coin, you can't comfortably comment on how 'hard' or not low income families have to work.

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