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Is Student Finance Flawed? watch

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Oh, so only high income parents work hard to provide for their kids? Really?

    Working hard to provide for your kids doesn't entitle them to sit back and chill.

    It's not patronising. If they don't want to work in order to afford stuff when they've had stuff provided to them already without having to work because their parents earn a lot, that's their problem.

    You fail to understand that being in a higher income bracket is mostly down to luck. Someone can work their absolute assess off and still be on the lowest pay bracket. So you saying they're receiving stuff 'for free' is ignorant. Ignorant of the prior struggle put in to get to the same point as the well off kid.

    I'm sorry but unless you've seen both sides of the coin, you can't comfortably comment on how 'hard' or not low income families have to work.

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    I didn't say that, I was saying why shouldn't parents work hard and provide for their children? They have earned that money and they can do what they want with it. The whole point I am trying to put across is why two students from different families should receive two different sized loans based on what their parents earn. It doesn't matter how 'cushy' their life has been up to that point, that is irrelevant. This is about their life as a student and they should both receive the exact same amount to live comfortably at uni. The poorer student does not deserve to be given more money simply because 'they've had a harder life:cry:', which is what some people on this thread are certainly implying!

    To put the thread back on topic, frankly each potential student should be seen as an INDIVIDUAL and not a product of their parents. Everyone should receive the same loan to live comfortably and if they want to get a job to supplement that then that's up to them. Simply giving free money or more loans to someone whose parents earn a few thousand less than someone else's is inequality. That wealthier person didn't choose to be born into that family any more than the poorer one did.
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    (Original post by somebodymaybe)
    Im not sure how it can be seen as fair that one individual will be receiving the full £8.2k just because there parents earn less, why does that matter? Also say in circumstances where a family has say 3 children. I think it is very stupid to make an assumption that all "rich" people have millions of pounds of disposable income which is not the case.

    It is also forgotten that many people have mortgages to pay, higher taxes, car insurance and are not gifted things such as housing benefits or whatever else people are given these days for free. In addition many working class kids go to university get the money and blow it on stupid things such as designer shoes or handbags or bottles in clubs to show off when in reality their parents can barely afford the gas bill.

    Discuss...


    Consistency not a strong point I see.
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    (Original post by littlenorthernlass)
    I'm not talking about food banks here. I'm talking about material things that we do not need to survive, such as a uni education. What my point was, is that why are poorer students entitled to more money for uni than wealthier students are?

    You can indeed turn your question back on me, and I'll happily answer. I work three jobs, that totals to a god damn number of hours per week, I have saved up lots of money from working minimum wage jobs since I was 18 and left school. So my question back to you is: why should I receive a lower loan than someone straight out of school from a lower income family, and why am I expected to make up the difference in the loans from my own pocket that I have slaved away for? That is not fair.
    I have no one to fall back on. No one I can ask for financial support. That is the reason why I am entitled to the full amount. My family does not have the disposable income to help me out at all.

    In short according to SFE people earning more than £XXXXX should be able to help out their child. It doesn't take into account a lot of factors.

    Honestly I think everyone should get the same amount £8200. Every student should have an amount that they can live on without needing external sources of income. It's currently an awful system and it sucks. It should be an across the board amount for everyone up to a certain wage cap like 60-70k.

    I just get annoyed when people who earn double my household income or more tell me that I don't deserve any help and that benefits should be enough for me.

    A University education would only be accessible for the rich and very well off people otherwise. People don't need a university education to survive but to better themselves in hopes of getting better earnings then it's crucial. People want better jobs and degrees give you access to that. Especially in this increasingly competitive job market.

    With A-levels alone you're restricted by what jobs and opportunities there are. If we didn't need degrees and qualifications to do certain jobs then people could go from sixth form into a good well paying job. With the increasing living costs people want the best job possible. It may not be necessary to survive but to live comfortably and put away money into a pension and to save up for a mortgage you need to have a good paying job.
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    (Original post by NekoAngel13)
    I have no one to fall back on. No one I can ask for financial support. That is the reason why I am entitled to the full amount. My family does not have the disposable income to help me out at all.

    In short according to SFE people earning more than £XXXXX should be able to help out their child. It doesn't take into account a lot of factors.

    Honestly I think everyone should get the same amount £8200. Every student should have an amount that they can live on without needing external sources of income. It's currently an awful system and it sucks. It should be an across the board amount for everyone up to a certain wage cap like 60-70k.
    .
    Okay. That's fair enough, but the point is why can't everybody get £8200? It shouldn't matter whether they're like you or on 20k, 30k, 40k. Everyone up to a very high cap, like you suggested, should be getting that £8200. If £8200 is really what is needed to live comfortably at uni, then everybody should be getting that and nobody should be having to depend on parents to make up the extra thousands.
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    (Original post by littlenorthernlass)
    Okay. That's fair enough, but the point is why can't everybody get £8200? It shouldn't matter whether they're like you or on 20k, 30k, 40k. Everyone up to a very high cap, like you suggested, should be getting that £8200. If £8200 is really what is needed to live comfortably at uni, then everybody should be getting that and nobody should be having to depend on parents to make up the extra thousands.
    It's because SFE makes the rules. They decide where the cut off points are and how much they're willing to give. It's how it is right now and students don't have any other choice unless their parents can pay it upfront or by term.

    I don't know how you'd go about getting the change but you'd certainly have a lot of student support. Maybe start a petition and organise protests or something, Maybe write a letter to your local MP, I don't know.
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    If I didn't get the bursary money that I get from my uni (more than I get from SF Northern Ireland) then I would be screwed - and I get the highest amount available to us ones in N.I. Th uni accommodation fees are ridiculous, I can't wait to move into private renting next year.

    I get no support whatsoever from my family. I got EMA for sixth form and I used that to support myself a lot during then. I've been trying to get a job since I was 16 but I come from the city that has one of the highest unemployment rates in the UK (definitely in N.Ireland). I'm even struggling to get a job at uni which is why I've started volunteering to boost my CV and give me something to do outside of essays after essays.

    I agree though, the system is unfair. It needs a reform.
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    First they said EMA was unfair, that poor kids didn't deserve or need the money. Then they said student grants were unfair, that poor students didn't deserve or need the money. Now they're saying poor students shouldn't get more loans than rich students... what next? I don't think middle class people will ever be happy until the poor are on their knees cleaning their shoes.
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    (Original post by NekoAngel13)
    It's because SFE makes the rules. They decide where the cut off points are and how much they're willing to give. It's how it is right now and students don't have any other choice unless their parents can pay it upfront or by term.

    I don't know how you'd go about getting the change but you'd certainly have a lot of student support. Maybe start a petition and organise protests or something, Maybe write a letter to your local MP, I don't know.
    SFE doesn't make the rules. The government does. (Well, strictly it's parliament).
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    My dad is the sole breadwinner. He earns £50k post-tax. He has 5 children and a partner out of work, and lives in London where things are naturally more expensive.

    I'm only entitled to the minimum maintenance loan, and he won't lend me a single penny—if he helps pay for me, then he'd have to help pay for my 4 other siblings, or else it'd be unfair on them.

    Meanwhile, my friend who is an only child and has both parents in work is entitled to the maximum maintenance loan as she receives child benefit.

    Such a sh*t system.
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    (Original post by Kiytt)
    My dad is the sole breadwinner. He earns £50k post-tax. He has 5 children and a partner out of work, and lives in London where things are naturally more expensive.

    I'm only entitled to the minimum maintenance loan, and he won't lend me a single penny—if he helps pay for me, then he'd have to help pay for my 4 other siblings, or else it'd be unfair on them.

    Meanwhile, my friend who is an only child and has both parents in work is entitled to the maximum maintenance loan as she receives child benefit.

    Such a sh*t system.
    Boo hoo. 50k after tax? Your family is wealthy, pretending you're not is laughable. My aunt brought up 5 kids on a quarter of that salary. I don't believe people when they say their rich parents won't help them. If you literally didn't have money for food, your dad would give you money.
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    (Original post by Kiytt)
    My dad is the sole breadwinner. He earns £50k post-tax. He has 5 children and a partner out of work, and lives in London where things are naturally more expensive.

    I'm only entitled to the minimum maintenance loan, and he won't lend me a single penny—if he helps pay for me, then he'd have to help pay for my 4 other siblings, or else it'd be unfair on them.

    Meanwhile, my friend who is an only child and has both parents in work is entitled to the maximum maintenance loan as she receives child benefit.

    Such a sh*t system.
    No, not a **** system my friend you have a **** parent.


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    (Original post by AccountingBabe)
    No, not a **** system my friend you have a **** parent.


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    Oh, I'm aware of that. I shouldn't have to suffer for something out my control, though.
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    (Original post by Kiytt)
    Oh, I'm aware of that. I shouldn't have to suffer for something out my control, though.
    Well there's a line where the state has to draw and the parents has to take responsibility. And if they handed out that money to everyone then I can assure you everyone would get less as there just isn't enough to go around. Hence why the poor get first dibs.


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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    Boo hoo. 50k after tax? Your family is wealthy, pretending you're not is laughable. My aunt brought up 5 kids on a quarter of that salary. I don't believe people when they say their rich parents won't help them. If you literally didn't have money for food, your dad would give you money.
    I never claimed that my family was impoverished, though if you're insinuating that we're secretly living in luxury, I ought to burst your bubble and inform you that we live in half council-owned housing, with 4 bedrooms and 7 occupants. Not lavish.

    Since you appear to be the type to make presumptions, it would not surprise me if you thought that my dad isn't deserving of what he earns. He has worked 9-8 five days a week for the past 25 years as a software engineer. Both my parents lived in actual poverty; I'm extremely appreciative of how well off he is in the present moment, as he wasn't always. But he worked his ass off to get to where he is, and still does.

    You can believe whatever you like, but he has not spent a penny on my older sister who is in her final year at uni. I'm not sure how well she's gotten by, but he lends her nothing.

    Don't undermine other people's problems because you're spiteful of your own.
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    (Original post by AccountingBabe)
    Well there's a line where the state has to draw and the parents has to take responsibility. And if they handed out that money to everyone then I can assure you everyone would get less as there just isn't enough to go around. Hence why the poor get first dibs.


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    Except the example I gave demonstrated those reaping the rewards aren't poor and have two parents supporting them fully. I'm not denying the system generally works, but it does have fundamental flaws.
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    (Original post by NekoAngel13)
    I don't think you realise how little disposable income people on lower incomes have to actually save up. I work 18hrs a week earning £5.30 an hour. That's £95 a week before I take out petrol costs and my contribution towards the bills. I would love to save more money but it's difficult when you live barely above the breadline.

    I can't work more hours because I need the time to study and get good grades and I need down time too. I don't want to burn out. Saving is difficult because there has been months where we've needed my salary to help out. My mum works full time at above minimum wage but it's not enough to cover all of the costs. Rent, food, petrol, gas, electric, t.v, internet, water, council tax etc.

    Your comment is actually really insensitive. When you consider that millions of homes in britain rely upon food banks and second jobs to make ends meet because their pay doesn't make ends meet.
    In some cases no, people on lower incomes can't always just save up.

    It's that kind of mentality that would end up leaving higher education only for the rich, further increasing the pay gap. People in my situation need that money because their wage doesn't make ends meet. Without the extra help god knows what would've happened.

    I'll turn your question back on you.
    Why didn't you get a job and save up? Your parents were in a stable financial position right? You didn't worry about having a roof over your head and food to eat right? You didn't have to work and you chose not to. You could've easily had a job and put away a lot of money.
    I completely agree im not in the higher bands but im not in the lower bands easier. I was in a comfortable position and i spent my summer before uni working on minimum wage to save up some money. I get enough money to cover my bus pass, my contribution to the bills thr majority of the textbooks required for my course and still have money left over. I know that although a few people from lower income households appear to have more disposable money at uni its usually not true. Its more likely that they are managing their finances bette. My parents still have a mortagage to pay off and i have 2 younger siblings so they can't always spare the money which means that if i dont work part-time i could find mysself in a tough situation but i know that some students are barely getting by on their loans AND by working so i think it makes sense to give people who would otherwise struggle to afford or completely miss out on the opportunity more money to bridge the gap. Alot of n people that are saying everyone should be given the same amount aren't considering the long-term impact of lower income households getting more because eventually it will bridge the gap in pay and wealth.
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    (Original post by Kiytt)
    I never claimed that my family was impoverished, though if you're insinuating that we're secretly living in luxury, I ought to burst your bubble and inform you that we live in half council-owned housing, with 4 bedrooms and 7 occupants. Not lavish.

    Since you appear to be the type to make presumptions, it would not surprise me if you thought that my dad isn't deserving of what he earns. He has worked 9-8 five days a week for the past 25 years as a software engineer. Both my parents lived in actual poverty; I'm extremely appreciative of how well off he is in the present moment, as he wasn't always. But he worked his ass off to get to where he is, and still does.

    You can believe whatever you like, but he has not spent a penny on my older sister who is in her final year at uni. I'm not sure how well she's gotten by, but he lends her nothing.

    Don't undermine other people's problems because you're spiteful of your own.
    I insinuated nothing; I did not say you were living a luxurious lifestyle. You were the one who brought up your fathers (very large) salary and then gave some pretty feeble reasons as to why he couldn't afford to support you. The implication is clear, you think you're just as deserving as families who live on £12,000 or less. :lol: I'm not in the least bit interested in whether your dad deserves his salary or not, that is not the point.
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    I insinuated nothing; I did not say you were living a luxurious lifestyle. You were the one who brought up your fathers (very large) salary and then gave some pretty feeble reasons as to why he couldn't afford to support you. The implication is clear, you think you're just as deserving as families who live on £12,000 or less. :lol: I'm not in the least bit interested in whether your dad deserves his salary or not, that is not the point.
    That was never my implication at all. I highlighted the double standard between a peer and myself simply because of the disparity between the number of siblings we have.

    I never implied I was as deserving as those in the lowest income bracket. What a deliberately hyperbolic inference to make. I don't deserve the minimum loan based on the sole assumption that my parent will support me just because he is able to. I don't deserve the highest, either.

    He can afford to support me, but whether he wants to or not is a different matter. He certainly can't afford to support all my costs even if he wanted. I'm sure you'll insist otherwise though.
 
 
 
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