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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I'm not sure. These people are serious and dangerous, and closer to power than their opponents.

    Ridicule is a good weapon for the powerful to use against the powerless. Here I think it might miss the point. If it is OK for an Anglo to wear a sombrero why isn't it OK for an Anglo to wear blackface? If you think it is OK, you are making a serious point and can't just make fun of the other side. If you think those cases are entirely different, why? The jokes are an attempt to dodge this point - banning sombreros seems "obviously" silly, unlike banning blackface, but it's not explained why.

    If you are powerful, you don't have to explain why you are squashing someone, but since these far left movements tend to get their way at the moment, if you want to start beating them in the future then you have to persuade people who aren't persuaded now, so you have to explain why they are wrong.


    Two problems.

    First, decisions are made by those who show up. These people may be a small faction but they're bigger than any other faction. The doesn't care/non-voter population may be much bigger but wins no representation.

    Second, they are just taking accepted principles and extending them to the logical conclusion. The Western student left isn't dissident radical, it's ultra-orthodox, i.e. it believes in the state ideology more than the state does.

    If you believe that it should be illegal to [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614834/Arrested-quoting-Winston-Churchill-European-election-candidate-accused-religious-racial-harassment-repeats-wartime-prime-ministers-words-Islam-campaign-speech.html]read The River War out loud
    you have no grounds for thinking it should be legal for an Anglo to wear a foreign hat. Both things are illegal on grounds that they upset others, after all. If on the other hand you think it shouldn't be illegal to read The River War out loud then you are not opposing a group of dissident "wowsers", you are opposing the law of the land supported by a national consensus.[/QUOTE]

    I'd argue it's the other way round it's a good tool for the powerless to use against the powerful (here I'm thinking of the long and proud history of political cartoons for example) but I do understand where you are coming form

    But yes the biggest issue is the first one you mentioned decisions are made by those who turn up (for example the UCL BDS being decided by just 18 students(
    http://david-collier.com/?p=1863)) and it seem those who 'care' are allowed to be the most vocal
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    Safe spaces

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    (Original post by Observatory)
    If on the other hand you think it shouldn't be illegal to read The River War out loud then you are not opposing a group of dissident "wowsers", you are opposing the law of the land supported by a national consensus.
    Do you really think that what Churchill wrote is an incitement to hatred? I don't. Reading it is not, therefore, illegal and he will not be charged. If he is charged he should pursue an aggressive defence that ridicules the police for arresting him on those grounds without any real thought and will be found not guilty.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    I'd argue it's the other way round it's a good tool for the powerless to use against the powerful (here I'm thinking of the long and proud history of political cartoons for example) but I do understand where you are coming form

    But yes the biggest issue is the first one you mentioned decisions are made by those who turn up (for example the UCL BDS being decided by just 18 students(
    http://david-collier.com/?p=1863)) and it seem those who 'care' are allowed to be the most vocal
    Can you give an example of a famous political cartoon in which the truth is spoken to power?

    Generally powerful groups simply outlaw ridicule of themselves, as it is almost illegal to ridicule muslims in the UK, and to a lesser extent to ridicule the left.

    Even if they don't, weak groups need to be persuasive and ridicule preaches to the choir. People don't laugh at political humour when they don't agree with the politics. Listen to the comedy on Radio 4. It is either non-political, or orthodox social democrat. Why? Because Radio 4 has few right wing listeners.

    Ridicule is what you subject an already-defeated enemy to, the point not being to persuade anyone of anything, or even to weaken them further, but just to make them unattractive to people on your side, to reduce defections.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Ridicule is what you subject an already-defeated enemy to, the point not being to persuade anyone of anything, or even to weaken them further, but just to make them unattractive to people on your side, to reduce defections.
    I cannot agree. People who ban fancy dress parties deserve ridicule, and they certainly are not defeated.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Can you give an example of a famous political cartoon in which the truth is spoken to power?

    Generally powerful groups simply outlaw ridicule of themselves, as it is almost illegal to ridicule muslims in the UK, and to a lesser extent to ridicule the left.

    Even if they don't, weak groups need to be persuasive and ridicule preaches to the choir. People don't laugh at political humour when they don't agree with the politics. Listen to the comedy on Radio 4. It is either non-political, or orthodox social democrat. Why? Because Radio 4 has few right wing listeners.

    Ridicule is what you subject an already-defeated enemy to, the point not being to persuade anyone of anything, or even to weaken them further, but just to make them unattractive to people on your side, to reduce defections.
    We're talking about being mocked not about 'truth'

    But I suggest you look at the old Punch cartoons for examples of how the 'people' deal and ridicule people in power

    But agree with good Bloke when he says 'I cannot agree. People who ban fancy dress parties deserve ridicule, and they certainly are not defeated.' as they are the one with the power

    and I wouldn't use the lack of ridiculing Islam or muslims as comparable given the tendency for members of that group to react with extreme violence when challenged (something I've always said needs to be ridiculed even more but can't blame people for not wanting their throat cut for making a few Jokes)
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Do you really think that what Churchill wrote is an incitement to hatred? I don't. Reading it is not, therefore, illegal and he will not be charged. If he is charged he should pursue an aggressive defence that ridicules the police for arresting him on those grounds without any real thought and will be found not guilty.
    What does it matter - his speech was stopped and he was removed by the police. That is speaking power to truth. The policemen who did this will not suffer any consequences from it. If he goes back, he will not be protected from re-arrest. Others who might have in mind to do something similar are deterred.

    The police did not do this thoughtlessly and the fact you believe they did is an impediment to effective action. If he had been reading Karl Marx they would not have done it. This response on the part of the police was entirely dependent on the content of the speech, right wing speech being less legal than left wing speech. Even when right wing speech is quoting from the Nobel Prize-winning body of work of a decorated war hero, former PM and Knight of the Bath, and left wing speech quoting someone who wanted to destroy the British state, and inspired a century of mass murder, repression, and political terror.

    If you think that is a problem, as I do, it isn't sufficient to laugh at people who want to ban whites wearing dreadlocks or English-speakers wearing sombreros. Someone who suggested in 1950 that you could be arrested for reading Churchill's books in public would have been considered risible too.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    We're talking about being mocked not about 'truth'

    But I suggest you look at the old Punch cartoons for examples of how the 'people' deal and ridicule people in power
    Or Gilray's work. He constantly attacked those in power, as do modern political cartoonists.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I cannot agree. People who ban fancy dress parties deserve ridicule, and they certainly are not defeated.
    My point is that you will not find ridicule to be an effective tactic.

    If society's response is ridicule then in 50 years there will be laws against white English speakers wearing ethnically incongruous clothing.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Or Gilray's work. He constantly attacked those in power, as do modern political cartoonists.
    We need a modern day Gilray to be honest(closet I can think of is Jesus and Mo)

    Strange in how trying to go forward we seem to have gone backwards instead
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    If you think that is a problem, as I do, it isn't sufficient to laugh at people who want to ban whites wearing dreadlocks or English-speakers wearing sombreros. Someone who suggested in 1950 that you could be arrested for reading Churchill's books in public would have been considered risible too.
    I understand. But mockery (and ignoring their message - I must look out that old sombrero from the loft) is the most many of us can realistically contribute unless we enter politics - and it is a start!
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    My point is that you will not find ridicule to be an effective tactic.

    If society's response is ridicule then in 50 years there will be laws against white English speakers wearing ethnically incongruous clothing.
    Then those who say (as Plagioclase did above) that these people are essentially harmless and can be ignored are utterly wrong.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I understand. But mockery (and ignoring their message - I must look out that old sombrero from the loft) is the most many of us can realistically contribute unless we enter politics - and it is a start!
    Of course you won't personally influence much, nor will I. But that's not the point. You can take them seriously. They are not a bunch of clowns with too much time on their hands, people who came up with silly ideas after too much to drink, or future baristas-in-training. They've thought long and hard about both what goals to pursue and how to pursue them and they're the dominant intellectual group in Western culture. Many of them will be in positions of real power in 30 years; many of their equivalents from the 80s are in positions of real power today. They tend to win unless very robustly resisted. If you feel attacked by this sort of thing, what is attacking you is not a joke, it is something very powerful and very dangerous.

    That realisation needs to enter culture. Then maybe when e.g. we have a Conservative government, they will not continue to fund and enable all the civil society institutions that support this structure of power. The right tends to lose because it doesn't realise that there is a fight; its ideas are very often better.


    edit: This is not really meant to be directed at you personally, it's more a general observation on how opponents to this sort of thing respond.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I feel like every uni is going to create safe spaces for their students in the near future.
    Not my uni. They are even banned fron joining the NUS.
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    (Original post by teenhorrorstory)
    'Students were offered counselling and 'a safe place' and students in the pictures now face disciplinary action over the pictures, described as an act of 'ethnic stereotyping'.

    Lmfaoo
    They're being treated like children, lol. The 'naughty' kids get sent to the principal's office for a patronising lecture while the 'upset' kids sit in the nurse's office sucking on wowipops. The poor darlings must feel traumatised, after all.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Not my uni. They are even banned fron joining the NUS.
    That should stop a lot of brain damage.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    That should stop a lot of brain damage.
    It is glorious. No FemSoc. Less PC bull**** and we can have strippers in the SU bar.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    It is glorious. No FemSoc. Less PC bull**** and we can have strippers in the SU bar.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Can you snort coke off a prostitute's tits?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Can you snort coke off a prostitute's tits?
    You can, but I'm not sure security would be particularly impressed.

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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Not my uni. They are even banned fron joining the NUS.
    I bet no such thing exists. I've never heard of it
 
 
 
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