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Cambridge students cancel theme party over 'cultural appropriation' fears watch

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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I can't be ethnically English,so your point is moot but English in a sense that I live in England.
    A goat may live in a stable; that doesn't make him a horse.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    :ahee:
    :laugh: naughty!
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    (Original post by Howard)
    A goat may live in a stable; that doesn't make him a horse.
    I was told I'm just as English as the next person who was born here and has ancestors here,not that I agree with that.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    We're definitely going in circles now, because I've explained this twice, this being the most recent instance:





    That would be the case if I held on to this belief irrationally. But I don't; I've argued my case as best as I can, and I welcome any challenge to it from anybody at all (who isn't on my ignore list :innocent:).

    My issue here is that you refer to them as victims before any consensus has been reached on whether they are victims. I thought about highlighting this earlier: there was one instance where you were discussing whether they were victims while at the same time referring to them as such, which I thought odd, but meh. Too late to look for it now.

    We determine whether they are victims or not by looking at the matter reasonably. Why do they feel that they 'own' their culture? Are they entitled to prevent people from wearing what they like in a free society? These aren't questions that have produced answers thus far that would allow us to say that these people are the victims of any injustice that exists outside their imaginations.



    This isn't true. Good bloke cited a number of examples, as did TimmonaPortella, as did I (well, I cited two). You even briefly addressed some of them.



    I think one of the great problems with this discussion is that you, speaking on behalf of the people who believe that this is a real thing, don't have a very consistent definition of what you mean by this. I don't mean that as a personal attack, but previously you've defined it as exploitation/taking advantage of/taking credit for minority cultures (with a less than satisfactory explanation for why the majority/minority distinction is at all relevant if we consider this objectively).

    On further questioning, you've defined 'exploitation/taking advantage of/taking credit for' as adopting parts of the culture with malicious intent and, when this has been shown to be unworkable and arbitrary by counter-example, you've retreated and said that you don't understand it that well yourself and aren't an expert, only to repeat the same things moments later.

    I just don't think this is a tenable line of argument, circular as it is. :dontknow:



    This makes no sense, for the reasons that I've previously explained. You don't support multiculturalism if you support people feeling entitled to their culture in a way that encourages segregation.

    Edit: This is also an example where you talk about something whose existence/severity is in dispute in a way that assumes that this information has already been agreed upon. It hasn't; we're still talking about it.
    I feel they are victims. If they weren't,the university would bother giving them counselling or even cancelling the whole event.

    Look,I don't care whether you choose to believe in cultural appropriation or not. We seem to going around in circles and it's just getting tiring now.
    If you don't want to accept that minority cultures are being exploited on university campuses is up to you,I also have never claimed to be an expert on such matters but I do believe such a thing exists and people have the right to voice their grievances to their universities.

    Hmm interesting you say this. I can still integrate with other cultures without the need to feel like I have to take advantage of said culture
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I was told I'm just as English as the next person who was born here and has ancestors here,not that I agree with that.
    I don't agree with that either.

    I'm originally English myself but emigrated to the US in 2001 and eventually became a US citizen. However, to think of myself as just as American as my native born neighbours is ridiculous. And, I say this, even though I share the same culture and ancestral heritage with many of those neighbours.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I don't agree with that either.

    I'm originally English myself but emigrated to the US in 2001 and eventually became a US citizen. However, to think of myself as just as American as my native born neighbours is ridiculous. And, I say this, even though I share the same culture and ancestral heritage with many of those neighbours.
    I only think of myself as English/British in an integration sense and the fact that I was born here but other than that,being middle eastern and Italian is what I've always identified as coming first
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I only think of myself as English/British in an integration sense and the fact that I was born here but other than that,being middle eastern and Italian is what I've always identified as coming first
    I think of myself as American first, then Canadian, and then British. (I hold citizenship of all three countries)

    But I can never be "just as American" as a native born American. For a start, the Constitution which is the highest law in the land does not recognise me as an equal. Not that I begrudge that law, but it's a fact. All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Is it perhaps that as an immigrant you feel more disconnected from your own heritage than you would otherwise be if you were not living in the UK. I'm not saying this as bad thing, merely trying to understand it.

    Something I rarely talk about is that I am a 3rd generation immigrant to the UK. But I have never been to my family's country of origin or been involved in the culture.
    I feel like a foreigner living within london,you're right.

    That's the thing,you're probably not as connected as I am to Damascus or Tuscany. When I'm back home in Tuscany I feel so different than just being here in London or when I'm visiting any other ME country. I just feel at home,I feel closer to my heritage
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I think of myself as American first, then Canadian, and then British. (I hold citizenship of all three countries)

    But I can never be "just as American" as a native born American. For a start, the Constitution which is the highest law in the land does not recognise me as an equal. Not that I begrudge that law, but it's a fact. All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
    Exactly! That's how I feel,like a foreigner in the UK.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Yes

    It's not as simple as that. I am a Levantine,I speak arabic,I follow the culture but I'm not really an Arab?
    Oxford dictionary:
    Levantine - A person who lives in or comes from the Levant.
    Levant (archaic) - The eastern part of the Mediterranean with its islands and
    neighbouring countries.

    It's about geography, not ethnicity.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Oxford dictionary:
    Levantine - A person who lives in or comes from the Levant.
    Levant (archaic) - The eastern part of the Mediterranean with its islands and
    neighbouring countries.

    It's about geography, not ethnicity.
    Levantines are not Arabs!
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I feel they are victims. If they weren't,the university would bother giving them counselling or even cancelling the whole event.
    Except I've already explained why universities are giving in to their demands. Money. Nothing more, nothing less. So you've only got subjective perception on your side as far as victimhood goes.

    Look,I don't care whether you choose to believe in cultural appropriation or not.
    I don't 'choose' to believe or disbelieve things because it seems nice or sensible or 'common sense' to do so -- that's called wishful thinking. It would be nice if you'd gracefully concede some of the points that you haven't made very well instead of upending the board because you're not pleased with the outcome.

    If you don't want to accept that minority cultures are being exploited on university campuses is up to you
    Again, this isn't about what I want to be true; it's about what is true. Whatever you or I want or don't want is irrelevant to what is the case.

    I also have never claimed to be an expert on such matters but I do believe such a thing exists and people have the right to voice their grievances to their universities.
    So am I to take it that you're going to hold to this view simply because you want it to be true? Well, alright, but in future, please let me know at the start that you're not willing to be convinced. It would have saved 10 pages of fruitless discussion.

    Hmm interesting you say this. I can still integrate with other cultures without the need to feel like I have to take advantage of said culture
    No comment. This position has been discredited, and you have not made any reasonable counter-arguments, so it's safe to write this off as deliberate obscurantism, I think.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Exactly! That's how I feel,like a foreigner in the UK.
    It takes a couple of generations. My kids were both born in the USA so are about as American as apple pie.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Except I've already explained why universities are giving in to their demands. Money. Nothing more, nothing less. So you've only got subjective perception on your side as far as victimhood goes.



    I don't 'choose' to believe or disbelieve things because it seems nice or sensible or 'common sense' to do so -- that's called wishful thinking. It would be nice if you'd gracefully concede some of the points that you haven't made very well instead of upending the board because you're not pleased with the outcome.



    Again, this isn't about what I want to be true; it's about what is true. Whatever you or I want or don't want is irrelevant to what is the case.



    So am I to take it that you're going to hold to this view simply because you want it to be true? Well, alright, but in future, please let me know at the start that you're not willing to be convinced. It would have saved 10 pages of fruitless discussion.



    No comment. This position has been discredited, and you have not made any reasonable counter-arguments, so it's safe to write this off as deliberate obscurantism, I think.
    So you're not the spokesperson speaking on behalf of universities in the UK?

    Nothing to do with being nice or common sense. It's to do with justice! What points? Khalas,I'm so tired!

    Simply because i speak out where I see injustices. I just told you where I stand,why do you feel that people should have to culturally appropriate other people's culture for them to be integrated into society?

    And yes I said earlier you're treating this like a witch hunt because you don't like that people are voicing there opinions on such things just like the issues concerning islamophobia
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    So you're not the spokesperson speaking on behalf of universities in the UK?

    Nothing to do with being nice or common sense. It's to do with justice! What points? Khalas,I'm so tired!

    Simply because i speak out where I see injustices. I just told you where I stand,why do you feel that people should have to culturally appropriate other people's culture for them to be integrated into society?
    Injustices have to be proven, I'm afraid. Under your definition, anybody can be a victim by simply claiming to be one, as and when it's convenient for them.

    And yes I said earlier you're treating this like a witch hunt because you don't like that people are voicing there opinions on such things just like the issues concerning islamophobia
    When have I said that I don't like people voicing their opinions? Simply disagreeing with somebody's opinion and arguing against it is not the same as trying to stop them from expressing it in the first place.

    I also don't know what 'Islamophobia' has to do with any of this.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Injustices have to be proven, I'm afraid. Under your definition, anybody can be a victim by simply claiming to be one, as and when it's convenient for them.



    When have I said that I don't like people voicing their opinions? Simply disagreeing with somebody's opinion and arguing against it is not the same as trying to stop them from expressing it in the first place.

    I also don't know what 'Islamophobia' has to do with any of this.
    Have a read habibi and tell me what you think:

    http://racerelations.about.com/od/di...s-It-Wrong.htm

    The article also talks about assimilation and 'culture sharing'
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    (Original post by Howard)
    It takes a couple of generations. My kids were both born in the USA so are about as American as apple pie.
    Are you part of the klan?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Are you part of the klan?
    AKIA??

    Good Lord, what makes you ask that!?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    If you don't want to accept that minority cultures are being exploited on university campuses is up to you,I also have never claimed to be an expert on such matters but I do believe such a thing exists and people have the right to voice their grievances to their universities.
    But you keep ignoring our request to explain what this exploitation is, and why it does not apply the other way around. Are you able to tell us?

    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I have answers your questions and even gave you an example of your wife trying to appropriate middle eastern culture and you chose to ignore it.
    No. Go back and consider them individually.

    As for my wife. You said you can dress as an Arab princess because you are an Arabic speaker and know something of the culture so far as I can make out. You were not born there, are not an Arab, and have never lived there. The only difference between you and my wife is that you can speak Arabic (which is hardly relevant if you are attending a UK fancy dress party, is it?) and she can't, yet you can dress up as an Arab and she can't . Can you not see why we cannot understand what all the confusion is about?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    AKIA??

    Good Lord, what makes you ask that!?
    I've seen the stuff you've been posting...
 
 
 

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