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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Just about everyone knows that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, so why does it need to be said every time a criticism is levelled against Israel? It almost seems like a tu quoque fallacy. I mean, if Israel wants to be held to the same standard as Hamas, that's fine, but pro-Israel people shouldn't then, as they often do, try to showcase it as a beacon of civilisation and democracy in a sea of barbarity.



    Do these people happen to be staunchly pro-Israel themselves? If so, is it not then a possibility that these people are simply shouting 'biased!' at findings that they personally dislike and find difficult to reconcile with their preconceptions about Israel and the IDF?



    Yes, but why do you believe this? You have to have some kind of reason for this belief -- otherwise it's just an irrational view adopted out of convenience and a wish to only admit evidence that confirms what you already believe.
    This forum was talking about the IDF killing people for fun- Hamas was then mentioned, because Hamas governs Gaza - all I am trying to repeat is that although Israel might not be doing right all the time - Hamas (who govern Gaza and who are invlolved in many of these incidents) are worse.
    Israel isn't holding the same standards as Hamas at all. As I said previously, Hamas do not care about their own civilians' lives whereas Israel does. Israel never sends rockets just for the hell of it, unlike Hamas which they do with no provocation. Israel therefore, has higher standards than Hamas.
    Ban Ki-Moon has admitted that the UN is bias against Israel.
    "
    Unfortunately, because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel has been weighed down by criticism and suffered from bias and sometimes even discrimination,” UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon admitted "
    This is taken from a newspaper article.
    If you don't want to believe what Ban Ki-moon has admitted - then fine by me - but I'm not the only one who thinks the UN is bias against Israel.
    It is not one piece I don't like - I wouldn't have made a fuss about the UN being bias had Ban Ki-moon not admitted it himself.

    I am a Zionist - always have been.
    People are allowed to have their own opinions based on what they know - I don't understand why you have a problem with this...
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    (Original post by iwishicouldfly14)
    This forum was talking about the IDF killing people for fun- Hamas was then mentioned, because Hamas governs Gaza - all I am trying to repeat is that although Israel might not be doing right all the time - Hamas (who govern Gaza and who are invlolved in many of these incidents) are worse.
    Again, as I said, we know that Hamas is a terrorist organisation. And if you adhere to moral conventions, then you accept that, 'but Hamas does so much worse' is not an excuse for the IDF killing civilians. This is something that is almost a reflex for a lot of pro-Israel people, but if you think about it, it's no defence at all. If somebody was accused of the manslaughter of two people, you would laugh if they tried to defend themselves by saying, 'but my neighbour has killed three people intentionally!' All I ask is that you be consistent.

    Israel isn't holding the same standards as Hamas at all.
    You've mis-read slightly. I haven't said that Israel is holding the same standards as Hamas. I've said that, in constantly bringing up the crimes of Hamas every time it is accused of something, Israel ignores the fact that we expect terrorist organisations to do these things. We hold Israel to a higher standard -- but if they want to be held to the same standard as Hamas in how we judge them, then that's fine. All the Israeli government has to do is stop claiming to be blameless humanitarians, but that's something I doubt is happening any time soon.

    Ban Ki-Moon has admitted that the UN is bias against Israel.
    "
    Unfortunately, because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel has been weighed down by criticism and suffered from bias and sometimes even discrimination,” UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon admitted "
    This is taken from a newspaper article.
    If you don't want to believe what Ban Ki-moon has admitted - then fine by me - but I'm not the only one who thinks the UN is bias against Israel.
    First of all -- link?

    And the quote that you've made makes no mention of the UN or the various UN organisations that have reported human rights abuses in the occupied territories -- it's simply a quote about Israel made by the Secretary-General of the UN.

    There's a tendency when talking about this conflict to be tribal about it, and all I'm asking is that you try to look at this objectively. Would you really think that a lot of people agreeing with you would prove your view in any other circumstances?

    In any case, the bias of one organisation would still leave you with the many other independent organisations that have concluded the same thing. Do you think that Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are also biased against Israel?

    I am a Zionist - always have been.
    People are allowed to have their own opinions based on what they know - I don't understand why you have a problem with this...
    I don't have a problem with it. I'm just trying to have a discussion with you. Challenging your views, even views that you've always held (e.g. Zionism), doesn't mean that I don't think you should be allowed to hold them.

    (While we're on the subject -- Zionism doesn't necessarily entail that you support everything that Israel does. It's simply the view that the Jewish people should have their own state. It says nothing about how this state should behave in war or international relations.)
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Again, as I said, we know that Hamas is a terrorist organisation. And if you adhere to moral conventions, then you accept that, 'but Hamas does so much worse' is not an excuse for the IDF killing civilians. This is something that is almost a reflex for a lot of pro-Israel people, but if you think about it, it's no defence at all. If somebody was accused of the manslaughter of two people, you would laugh if they tried to defend themselves by saying, 'but my neighbour has killed three people intentionally!' All I ask is that you be consistent.



    You've mis-read slightly. I haven't said that Israel is holding the same standards as Hamas. I've said that, in constantly bringing up the crimes of Hamas every time it is accused of something, Israel ignores the fact that we expect terrorist organisations to do these things. We hold Israel to a higher standard -- but if they want to be held to the same standard as Hamas in how we judge them, then that's fine. All the Israeli government has to do is stop claiming to be blameless humanitarians, but that's something I doubt is happening any time soon.



    First of all -- link?

    And the quote that you've made makes no mention of the UN or the various UN organisations that have reported human rights abuses in the occupied territories -- it's simply a quote about Israel made by the Secretary-General of the UN.

    There's a tendency when talking about this conflict to be tribal about it, and all I'm asking is that you try to look at this objectively. Would you really think that a lot of people agreeing with you would prove your view in any other circumstances?

    In any case, the bias of one organisation would still leave you with the many other independent organisations that have concluded the same thing. Do you think that Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are also biased against Israel?



    I don't have a problem with it. I'm just trying to have a discussion with you. Challenging your views, even views that you've always held (e.g. Zionism), doesn't mean that I don't think you should be allowed to hold them.

    (While we're on the subject -- Zionism doesn't necessarily entail that you support everything that Israel does. It's simply the view that the Jewish people should have their own state. It says nothing about how this state should behave in war or international relations.)
    I never said that that would be an excuse for the IDF killing citizens. I am purely saying that everyone makes out that the IDF are worse than Hamas because the IDF do more damage - Hamas could cause more damage but there are more safety precautions for Israelis (Jewish and non-Jewish alike) and Hamas willingly put their citizens in danger.

    Israel aren't evil or heartless! They go out of their way to protect people, they offer medical treatment to the same terrorists who have killed hundreds of people since September. Israel don't send rockets into Gaza for no reason. I again, am not saying Israel is perfect - even as a very strong Zionist I admit there are many many faults, but they are not the evil perpetrators that you make them out to be.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic...n_Rights_Watch

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic..._International


    Also just pointing out that you're having an argument with a half crazy 16 year old
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    (Original post by iwishicouldfly14)
    they offer medical treatment to the same terrorists who have killed hundreds of people since September.
    Let's be more accurate: 30 Israelis were killed since last September by Palestinian terrorists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...0%93present%29
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Let's be more accurate: 30 Israelis were killed since last September by Palestinian terrorists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...0%93present%29
    You see, a lot of posters don't view Israeli deaths as tragic but a mere consequence of their government's attack on Palestine. Antisemitism and ignorance combined really as an important minority of Israelis are Arabs.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Let's be more accurate: 30 Israelis were killed since last September by Palestinian terrorists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...0%93present%29
    Fine over a hundred deaths and injuries together in the past few months.
    Even if my statistic was wrong, people are still being killed and injured.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    You see, a lot of posters don't view Israeli deaths as tragic but a mere consequence of their government's attack on Palestine. Antisemitism and ignorance combined really as an important minority of Israelis are Arabs.
    Well, it corresponds to political views of such posters: why worry about people, who "bombed civilians for entertainment"?
    I won't surprised if for next discussion another article from the same site will be chosen:
    "Israeli rabbi: ‘killing Palestinians commended in Torah’"
    And I already can predict this fantastic argument: "Why not?"
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    (Original post by iwishicouldfly14)
    Fine over a hundred deaths and injuries together in the past few months.
    Even if my statistic was wrong, people are still being killed and injured.
    You are right, princess.
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    I don't know how to true it is. But when the wikileaks happened I read something about Ariel Sharon hunting kids for 'Sport'
    > I'm not willing to search this on the internet.
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    (Original post by jgjog3)
    I don't know how to true it is. But when the wikileaks happened I read something about Ariel Sharon hunting kids for 'Sport'
    > I'm not willing to search this on the internet.
    Yeah, "something about" also is a great argument. :cool:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Witness: I don't exactly remember, maybe he robbed, or maybe he was robbed..
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Well, it corresponds to political views of such posters: why worry about people, who "bombed civilians for entertainment"?
    I won't surprised if for next discussion another article from the same site will be chosen:
    "Israeli rabbi: ‘killing Palestinians commended in Torah’"
    And I already can predict this fantastic argument: "Why not?"
    Indeed and it's a real shame. Middle Eastern countries could learn from Israel rather than criticise it at every occasion.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    It's highly likely to be true. If you read some of Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch's reports, there are plenty of cases of individual groups and troops in the IDF deliberately killing civilians, and if you read Breaking the Silence's literature, in which IDF soldiers provide testimonies about IDF conduct in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, you'll find that this is highly likely to be true.
    I agree, I think it's plausible and even if it is invented, it sounds true because we all know of numerous previous incidents involving IDF brutality and callousness.

    Here are some examples documented by Breaking the Silence, narrated by IDF soldiers.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ine-occupation
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I agree, I think it's plausible and even if it is invented, it sounds true because we all know...
    Of course it should be true because it cannot be otherwise. :cool:
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    (Original post by teenhorrorstory)
    - See more at: http://www.daysofpalestine.com/featu....jycbMJcQ.dpuf

    How likely is it that this account is true?? I'm so disgusted
    Looks completely made up. There is no source provided, the website is claiming it did the interview but provides no corroborating details. I call BS
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The source is from an Israeli human rights organisation http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/ that supposedly did like 60 interviews or something.is to show the “moral price” of the occupation and to bring it to an end.
    I can't find any evidence to support your claim. I can't find any interview BTS has done with any soldier called Arieh, and this website the OP linked doesn't cite BTS, they claim they did the interview.

    It looks completely fabricated.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Considering the racist genocidal views that get expressed by Isrealie leaders.
    What Israeli Prime Minister has expressed genocidal views?

    Have any of them expressed views similar to Article 7 of the Hamas Charter that calls for the extermination of all Jews worldwide?
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    (Original post by teenhorrorstory)
    In an interview conducted on Tuesday with the Israeli soldier Arieh, 20, he said: “I was called to service early on July 2014 and was deployed to the Gaza Strip but until that time the operation [Operation Protective Edge] was not announced yet.

    “Only some soldiers speculated that there will be war, but later our commander told us to imagine a 200 metre radius and to immediately shoot anything moving inside this circle.”

    He stressed: “We bombed civilian targets for entertainment,” noting “one day at about 8am we went to the Al-Bureij; a densely populated refugee camp in central Gaza, and the commander told us to select a random target and shoot it.

    “At the time we did not see any Hamas fighters, no one shot at us, but the commander told us jokingly: ‘We have to send Bureij a morning greeting from the Israeli army.’”

    “I remember that one day, a soldier from our unit was killed and our commander asked us for revenge so I drew the tank randomly towards a huge white residential building, just four kilometres away from us and fired a shell at the 11th floor. I must have killed civilians who were absolutely innocent,” he continued.

    - See more at: http://www.daysofpalestine.com/featu....jycbMJcQ.dpuf

    How likely is it that this account is true?? I'm so disgusted
    Im sure its true. The IDF are scumbags. Only last week I watched a video of them overturn a disabled Palestinian in his wheelchair and then beat him up. How evil? :devil:
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So we are agreed. Terrorizing is a strategy often employed.
    Not really. Hamas uses rockets, suicide bombings, attack tunnels and stabbings in an attempt to terrorise Israel into complying with its demands.

    Israel uses airstrikes and raids in an attempt to get Hamas to stop using rockets, suicide bombings, attack tunnels and stabbings.

    No comparison.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    I can imagine soldiers have used munitions on civilians for entertainment, however I highly doubt it's IDF policy, they're not that ******* dumb even if they wanted to.

    But it's the same as reports of what Western forces have done to civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan, again I'd believe some of them. You will always get people who join the armed forces due to a nationalist sentiment and whom carry racist views about Middle eastern nations, this may impact their treatment of civilians, thinking their lives worth less, crude jokes about civilian causalities, abusing their power when dealing with them and for a tiny minority, to go as far as to harm them for "entertainment". But it's almost the same in any "industry", you will get people who do horrific things but it doesn't represent general policy.

    The only caveat I'd add to the Israel v Palestine issue is that unlike in some other situations, the feeling on both sides will be so strong by some, including those in political/military power, that they would likely approve of the eradication of civilian life behind closed doors.
    Those are very intelligent points, and I do think there's an important distinction to be made between soldiers who go beyond their authority and commit warcrimes opposed to a government policy to commit warcrimes.

    Israel does not, and has no interest in, ordering its military to commit random warcrimes. That is not to say they do not order attacks that result in civilian deaths, but that is not the goal of the attack (i.e. Israel bombs a Hamas command centre and civilians in the general vicinity are killed). An attack that results in civilian deaths is not automatically unethical or illegal under international law; proportionality is the key issue.

    I remember in 2014 a Hamas commander went on TV and talked about the bravery of the Gazans etc, how they saw off F-16s by "baring their chests". That is, that civilians crowded around a target and the attack was called off. That in itself is an admission that Israel avoids civilian casualties if possible, there's also the leaflets they drop, the telephone calls and text messages to civilians in strike areas, the way they hit the roof with a light shell to warn the occupants.

    Israel has no logical reason to want to kill civilians unnecessarily, it gains nothing and loses much. The avoidance of civilian casualties is part of its military doctrines. That is in total contrast to Hamas stated aim of killing all Jews worldwide and their policy of targeting civilians as a strategy.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I mean, if Israel wants to be held to the same standard as Hamas, that's fine, but pro-Israel people shouldn't then, as they often do, try to showcase it as a beacon of civilisation and democracy in a sea of barbarity.e
    But the anti-Zionist crowd can't have it both ways. They can't say "We hold Israel to a higher standard because it is a democracy" but then say that Israel is an evil authoritarian apartheid state.
 
 
 
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