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Is it time to stop student finance being based on parental income watch

  • View Poll Results: Should maintenance loans be based on parental income?
    Yes
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    No
    100
    49.50%

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    (Original post by PQ)
    yes it is

    http://media.slc.co.uk/sfe/1617/ft/s...orm_1617_d.pdf
    Section 6 - there's then a standard deduction from gross income for the cost of dependants that is taken off for U18 siblings (and a calculated deduction for siblings also at university).

    http://www.practitioners.slc.co.uk/m...ide_1617_d.pdf page 10 explains how this works
    Sorry - I got this wrong

    There was a student when I was at university who didn't receive this but it must have been his own doing not to claim
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    I'm sure you're entitled to some type of grant for your dyspraxia
    Depends if I get PIP

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    (Original post by Andy98)
    Depends if I get PIP

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    DSA doesn't require PIP to claim https://www.gov.uk/disabled-students...as/eligibility
    And being in receipt of PIP will usually put you straight to the top of the list for student hardship grants and bursaries from your university https://www.gov.uk/extra-money-pay-u...hardship-funds
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    Those parents have made the choice themselves to get the bigger house and have twice as many children.

    I could be on £100k but get that down to £5,000 of disposable income each year because I spend so much money on cars and fancy suits. Should I get money from the Govt because I make poor financial decisions?
    This is a ridiculous post, why should children who have no responsibility for their parent(s)' decisions be disadvantaged by them?

    I am one of five children, my dad's salary would've helped one child quite comfortably at university but five is much more difficult - this is where the system falls down
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Assessment of parental income is the only fair way to do it.
    But it's not even a fair way to do it, let alone the only fair way. Children of rich parents (who are not contributing to their kids education) are disadvantaged compared to the children of poor parents, or the children of rich parents who are contributing.

    A fair way to do it is making the amount a student pays depend solely on his or her own wealth after graduating, rather than making it depend on factors beyond their control.

    They already make repayments higher for higher earnings, I just said 21k because it's the minimum. The more you earn, the more you pay back.
    But if the taxpayer is still making an overall loss on these loans, clearly graduates on the whole are not paying back enough. Graduates who go on to earn high salaries could repay their loans at an even higher rate to what they do now, to subsidise the less well paid graduates.

    Like I said, defer uni then or commute from home. If you know you can't afford it, why are you still going? If you know you can't afford your accomodation, why are you still signing the contract?
    And like I said, if you're going to ask people to do that, then ask the children of poor parents to do it too. If you want to be fair about it.

    If you're on good enough terms with your parents that you have access to their income (in order to declare it to SF) and you're not estranged from them, it has to be assumed that you have a good enough relationship with them that they will support you just as they have been doing for the past 17years+ of your life. You can't assess each student independently because then they'd all be entitled to the maximum despite that fact that many of them will have their parents paying for their food/accomodation, so they don't need the full £8k.

    There's a difference. Their parents are not contributing because they don't want to, lower income parents are not contributing because they are unable to. If your loan is the bare minimum or very close to the minimum, it means that your parents are earning a minimum of 60-70k, so why are they not helping you? Even with other children, they can afford to help.

    Like I said, I come from a low income family and my mum (who is a single parent) has always helped or offered to help me. If your relationship with your parents is as good as you say, they should be the same.
    These are very sweeping generalisations here. You seem to be making the mistake of thinking of parents and children as the same financial entity. In practice they often may be, but officially they are not. Whilst parents often do help with the cost of education, you cannot just assume that they will, because they're under no obligation to. You end up disadvantaging the children of rich parents who do not contribute (for whatever reason).

    For example, some parents might earn high salaries, but still be unable to pay for their child's education if they have other obligations. For example, they might have a lot of debt. Or they might have a lot of other young children. Now you might say these parents weren't very responsible then, but that's not the student's fault, yet the student gets disadvantaged for it.

    Additionally, this is common in wealthy households - parents pressure or force their children into studying the university course of their choice rather than the student's own choice, with the threat that "if you study something else, I'm not paying for it".


    The current system is such that, in fairly rare circumstances, a few people end up getting screwed over through no fault of their own.

    I don't really see what objection you have to the system I have suggested, where everyone can afford to go to university (rich or poor), where the rich still subsidise the poor (after graduating rather than before), where the people who financially benefit the most from their education also pay the most for it, where the taxpayer doesn't have to foot anyone's bill, and where nobody is advantaged or disadvantaged based on luck of the draw of which parents they were born to.
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    (Original post by DougallnDougall)
    Then that also applies to lower income households - responsible for providing for their kids.
    No. If you are lucky enough to have a middle-class income and choose to not support your children, you are being unreasonable. People don't choose to be working class.

    (Original post by Medicnohoperno.9)
    This is a ridiculous post, why should children who have no responsibility for their parent(s)' decisions be disadvantaged by them?I am on one five children, my dad's salary would've helped one child quite comfortably at university but five is much more difficult - this is where the system falls down
    Because there is a limited amount of money that can be given out. In an ideal world the Government would have a magical way of knowing exactly how much each student needed, regardless of household income, and would be able to give it to them. That isn't the case, unfortunately, so the Government relies - to some extent - on parents being financially discerning.

    Having siblings is taken into account when you apply for student loans. Maybe they should increase the extent to which it is, I don't know the exact numbers.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Higher repayments from graduates who earn more. Many will earn significantly more than 35k.
    Good idea. Like this?

    Name:  Screen Shot 2016-03-18 at 17.44.38.jpg
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Size:  47.1 KB

    Which is how it works already.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    DSA doesn't require PIP to claim https://www.gov.uk/disabled-students...as/eligibility
    And being in receipt of PIP will usually put you straight to the top of the list for student hardship grants and bursaries from your university https://www.gov.uk/extra-money-pay-u...hardship-funds
    Oh thought you did. But I doubt I'll get PIP

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    (Original post by jneill)
    Good idea. Like this?

    Name:  Screen Shot 2016-03-18 at 17.44.38.jpg
Views: 100
Size:  47.1 KB

    Which is how it works already.
    No, not like that. The interest rate itself needs to be higher for high earning graduates, as opposed to higher monthly repayments that just end earlier. It needs to be such that overall, the government doesn't make an overall loss on the loans it gives out, and ultimately recuperates all the money.

    To achieve this, high earning graduates need to repay a higher amount in total, and not just monthly.

    That way, the maintenance loan is truly a loan, which gets repaid in entirety. And so the taxpayer would have no need to resent the fact that children of rich parents would get the same loan as everyone else (as they should). Because ultimately it's going to get paid back.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    No, not like that. The interest rate itself needs to be higher for high earning graduates, as opposed to higher monthly repayments that just end earlier. It needs to be such that overall, the government doesn't make an overall loss on the loans it gives out, and ultimately recuperates all the money.

    To achieve this, high earning graduates need to repay a higher amount in total, and not just monthly.

    That way, the maintenance loan is truly a loan, which gets repaid in entirety. And so the taxpayer would have no need to resent the fact that children of rich parents would get the same loan as everyone else (as they should).
    That's how it works already...

    Grads on less than £21k are charged at the rate of inflation, between £21-40k inflation plus a variable amount between 1-3% and over £40k inflation plus 3%.


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    (Original post by intelligent con)
    There is currently a petition calling for student finance to not be based on parental income. I completely agree, why should the government care what income my parents make, why should the chavvy UKIP types studying PE get more money than me because of what their parents earn? Education is a right for everyone FACT so I should not be excluded due to low maintenance loans. I can't wait for 2020 so I can vote for Jeremy Corbyn who will give me free education and abolish these discriminatory loans. Do you guys agree everyone should be entitled to the same amount?
    You say you want Jeremy Corbyn to make education 'free' but what you fail to realise is there is no such thing as a 'free' education. This 'free' education would simply be paid for by the extra taxes he'd put in place on people who at the moment get little student finance while softening taxes on the people you call 'chavvy UKIP types.' A stupid argument.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    That's how it works already...

    Grads on less than £21k are charged at the rate of inflation, between £21-40k inflation plus a variable amount between 1-3% and over £40k inflation plus 3%.


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    Yes, varied interest rate by salary
    http://www.slc.co.uk/services/interest-rates.aspx

    And the fact is, yes, higher earning grads DO pay back the entire loan in full.

    It's lower earning (below, I think, 35k) who don't.

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    That's how it works already...

    Grads on less than £21k are charged at the rate of inflation, between £21-40k inflation plus a variable amount between 1-3% and over £40k inflation plus 3%.


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    But currently, the government is not recovering all the money it lends out to students. Why not increase the rate at which high earning graduates repay the loan? It could be 4% instead of 3%. Or it could be inflation 5% over £70k (for example).

    Even if "that's how it works already", I'm saying we should do it even more than we already do; so that in total, the government gets back all the money it lends out.

    That way, all subsidising of the poor by the rich can happen after the students graduate and get jobs, without unecessarily bringing parental income into it.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    But the fact is, yes, higher earning grads DO pay back the entire loan in full.
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    I know higher earning grads already pay back the loan in full (plus interest). But I'm saying they need to be paying back even more than that, in order to make up for the losses that the government incurs on lower earning grads who don't end up repaying it in full. Does that make sense?

    That way, it's not the taxpayer who ultimately picks up the bill, the taxpayer is just giving out a loan. It would be entirely paid for by students themselves (with the rich ones subsidising the poor ones).

    If the system is set up that way, there's no need to consider parental income when giving loans to students, because parents are not being expected to pay anything. Instead of rich parents subsidising poor parents, it's rich grads subsidising poor grads - which is actually fair.
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    funny how all the leftist hipster edgy students who advocate socialism dont believe we should all receive the same amount #hypocrisy
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Don't think there's a varied interest rate depending on salary...?

    But the fact is, yes, higher earning grads DO pay back the entire loan in full.

    It's lower earning (below, I think, 35k) who don't.

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    There is. Between £21k and £40k, the interest rate incrementally increases until just before RPI + 3%. Then afterwards (£40k), it's RPI + 3%.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    I know higher earning grads already pay back the loan in full (plus interest). But I'm saying they need to be paying back even more than that, in order to make up for the losses that the government incurs on lower earning grads who don't end up repaying it in full. Does that make sense?

    That way, it's not the taxpayer who ultimately picks up the bill, the taxpayer is just giving out a loan. It would be entirely paid for by students themselves (with the rich ones subsidising the poor ones).

    If the system is set up that way, there's no need to consider parental income when giving loans to students, because parents are not being expected to pay anything. Instead of rich parents subsidising poor parents, it's rich grads subsidising poor grads - which is actually fair.

    You're advocating that someone who has worked hard at uni and in work should be liable to pay back more for those who possibly haven't? That doesn't seem very fair, not fair at all.

    That leaves the door open for suggestions that unless a degree programme is linked to a specific career then there should be no funding since students in these programmes are indulging themselves or being irresponsible by not undertaking career specific courses.
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    Does anyone have the maths to work out how much student finance I will get when factoring in siblings then?
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    (Original post by Dinasaurus)
    Does anyone have the maths to work out how much student finance I will get when factoring in siblings then?
    Not without knowing your parents exact salaries for the tax year concerned, their pension contributions (including AVCs) and more details about you and your course.

    If your household income is below £70k then you should apply as with deductions you're likely to receive something.

    If your household income is likely to drop by 15% or more you should apply and then submit a form with forecast income for 2016/17 financial year.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Not without knowing your parents exact salaries for the tax year concerned, their pension contributions (including AVCs) and more details about you and your course.

    If your household income is below £70k then you should apply as with deductions you're likely to receive something.

    If your household income is likely to drop by 15% or more you should apply and then submit a form with forecast income for 2016/17 financial year.
    What do you mean 'apply as with deductions'? Do I need to fill in a separate form for them to factor my siblings?
 
 
 
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