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Women Protection Bill protested by religious leaders as 'un-Islamic' watch

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    (Original post by QE2)
    This is the salient point on this issue.

    1. The Quran permits Muslims to beat their wives in certain circumstances, the word used having a clear context of physical force - this is the ultimate authority.

    2. Hadith instruct husbannds to avoid causing injury, breaking bones, hitting the face, beating too severely - this is a secondary authority that cannot be used to contradict the Quran.

    3. Anecdote claims that someone advised using a cane to condict the beating - this is not really a recognised authority, as such.

    indicates the symbolic punishment, as opposed to making it a physical one. How is beating someone with a cane "symbolic" and not "physical"?
    On your last point, it's amazing how many people say the Scriptures cannot be interpreted differently (one true interpretation)... and then proceed to make their own baseless interpretation that is clearly not in line with the Quran and the Sunnah...

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    (Original post by FlareBlitz96)
    i know some people here love to criticise aspects of Islam, but I feel that if u truly want to learn sincerely and not have bias clouding ur minds, then it's best to speak to a scholar 1 to 1. You could start off by telling them that ur a non Muslim but u wanted a few questions cleared up. I just feel that taking information from stuff like the media, it tends to get distorted in some way to support some idea. In a 1 to 1 discussion ,ur can make sure to ask about absolutely everything and try to point out if they've said some mistake
    And I can trust the scholar not to cloud my mind with bias? :rolleyes:

    In any case, why do you assume that people have learned about these things from the media? This is a common jeer from Muslims: that critics of Islam just don't understand because they've been brainwashed by the media and/or Western culture to view Islam in the way that they do. Having seen the kind of question-dodging, post hoc rationalisation, and piss-poor apologetics that many supposed experts get up to, I can't say that this assumption is at all justified, and nor can I vouch for the honesty of Islamic 'scholars' who beat around the bush when asked to explain Islam's position on apostasy or wife-beating or slavery.
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    (Original post by blah3210)
    The tap with the twig (doesn't have to be a twig - it can be your finger)
    Where did you get "tap with a finger" from?
    You're just making this up now!

    is not meant to be a patronising gesture. It could simply be a way of getting her attention - besides, this step would only be carried out in an extreme case. Before this step, other methods (i.e. talking, admonishing, refusing to share the bed) must be exhausted. When it gets to the tapping stage, it's likely that the husband is the one who's inclined to end the relationship.
    Have you any idea how ridiculous this sounds? Especially in the context of a 7th century culture that permitted slavery and concubinage, and prescribed such barbaric punishments as dismemberment and crucifixion for political opposition, and whose leader tortured suspects to death and executed prisoners?

    So, the final stage of dealing with a disobedient or rebellious wife, after remonstration and then rejection have failed, is to give them a non-physical tap?
    Well, that's certainly going to sort her out!
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Where did you get "tap with a finger" from?
    You're just making this up now!

    Have you any idea how ridiculous this sounds? Especially in the context of a 7th century culture that permitted slavery and concubinage, and prescribed such barbaric punishments as dismemberment and crucifixion for political opposition, and whose leader tortured suspects to death and executed prisoners?

    So, the final stage of dealing with a disobedient or rebellious wife, after remonstration and then rejection have failed, is to give them a non-physical tap?
    Well, that's certainly going to sort her out!
    "Non-physical tap"... thats the stage of Islam apologism that we're at now

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    (Original post by chemting)
    Tbf people like Irshad Manji and Asra Nomani (and Maajid Nawaz) don't say this. They openly admit how oppressive the Muslim world is ... and they get attacked, vilified and even death threats - from Muslims and regressives alike.

    It's the Reza Aslan crew who I think are dishonest.

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    I saw an interview with Aslan on US TV where he basically lied his way through it, but with a smugly patronising delivery and the implication that anyone who disagrees with him is a bigot, he gets away with it.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Where did you get "tap with a finger" from?
    You're just making this up now!
    I wonder what would have happened if Muhammed had tapped the necks of the disbelievers with his finger

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    (Original post by FlareBlitz96)
    i know some people here love to criticise aspects of Islam, but I feel that if u truly want to learn sincerely and not have bias clouding ur minds, then it's best to speak to a scholar 1 to 1. You could start off by telling them that ur a non Muslim but u wanted a few questions cleared up. I just feel that taking information from stuff like the media, it tends to get distorted in some way to support some idea. In a 1 to 1 discussion ,ur can make sure to ask about absolutely everything and try to point out if they've said some mistake
    The thing is, many critics of Islam are well aware of all the arguments presented by "scholars", and do not find them convincing, unlike many Muslims who are brought up with a reverence for the argumenet from authority.

    This thread has become a good example. We are seeing the "scholarly" defence of the Quran's permission for wife-beating. To the devout Muslim who may have had niggling doubts about such anachronistic barbarity, the seemingly well-researched and considered argument given by the scholar (someone with a highly vested interest in addressing doubt in the faithful) is taken at face value and accepted as reasonable.

    However, as we have seen here, the apologetics argument is actually theologically flawed and does not stand up to critical examination. But the majority of Muslims will not examine it critically because it seems to address their doubts. The fact that it is all smoke and mirrors is irrelevant, because they are not trying to see through it.

    Much like the husband who is madly in love with his wife and cannot imagine life without her. If he found something that suggested that she may be having an affair (eg. a restaurant bill for two people from an evening when she said she was working late) and on questioning her, being told that she was entertaining a client, he will most likely accept that with relief. He won't then contact her work to confirm what she said.

    The Muslims who are not so easily satisfied and keep questioning the scholars explanations may wind up as ex-Muslims. Just as the man may wind up as an ex-husband if he is more concerned with an honest relationship rather than maintaining a charade at all costs.
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    (Original post by chemting)
    "Non-physical tap"... thats the stage of Islam apologism that we're at now

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    IKR! So, when we put "Beating, with a clear context of force (Quran)" into the apologetics propaganda machine, it comes out the other end as "Non-physical tap with a finger (Blah3210)"

    And bearing in mind the claimed perfection and immutability of the Quran, this argument is put forward with a straight face! The power of faith demonstrated!
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The thing is, many critics of Islam are well aware of all the arguments presented by "scholars", and do not find them convincing, unlike many Muslims who are brought up with a reverence for the argumenet from authority.

    This thread has become a good example. We are seeing the "scholarly" defence of the Quran's permission for wife-beating. To the devout Muslim who may have had niggling doubts about such anachronistic barbarity, the seemingly well-researched and considered argument given by the scholar (someone with a highly vested interest in addressing doubt in the faithful) is taken at face value and accepted as reasonable.

    However, as we have seen here, the apologetics argument is actually theologically flawed and does not stand up to critical examination. But the majority of Muslims will not examine it critically because it seems to address their doubts. The fact that it is all smoke and mirrors is irrelevant, because they are not trying to see through it.

    Much like the husband who is madly in love with his wife and cannot imagine life without her. If he found something that suggested that she may be having an affair (eg. a restaurant bill for two people from an evening when she said she was working late) and on questioning her, being told that she was entertaining a client, he will most likely accept that with relief. He won't then contact her work to confirm what she said.

    The Muslims who are not so easily satisfied and keep questioning the scholars explanations may wind up as ex-Muslims. Just as the man may wind up as an ex-husband if he is more concerned with an honest relationship rather than maintaining a charade at all costs.
    Well said. PRSOM. Also love your husband/wife analogy!
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    (Original post by QE2)
    IKR! So, when we put "Beating, with a clear context of force (Quran)" into the apologetics propaganda machine, it comes out the other end as "Non-physical tap with a finger (Blah3210)"

    And bearing in mind the claimed perfection and immutability of the Quran, this argument is put forward with a straight face! The power of faith demonstrated!
    Tbf the twig comes from a Tafsir - not a Hadith (as s/he claimed), but nowhere it "indicates symbolic non-physical tap" (as s/he also claimed). I love how they ignored the interpretation given in Al-Tabari's Tafsir, and made up their own baseless interpretation (how is this not Bidah!)...
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    (Original post by wdkmwd)
    I just find it ƒucking funny How Muslims call the Qur'an a perfect book, yet they have to explain the so called perfect book to non-believers every second.
    (Original post by tumshie)
    I wonder what would have happened if Muhammed had tapped the necks of the disbelievers with his finger

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    :rofl2:
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    One of my posts just got reported.


    LMAO, i guess that's muslims favourite defence.
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    (Original post by blah3210)
    They're not allowed to mislead the Muslims by making up rulings and attributing false sayings to Muhammad.
    No, but you can lie to the Kaffir (us, obviously) can't you? Which you must be doing now, because I can't believe you take any of this seriously.

    Are you honestly trying to assert (even to yourself!) that God can tell his chosen people to smite the necks of Kaffir (which Mohammed ordered done to the helpless prisoners of the Banu Quarayza tribe, where the men were beheaded and the women turned into sex slaves like the current day Yazidi) but when he says wives are to be beaten it is with a twig??
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    (Original post by blah3210)
    Tapping with a twig is hitting? :rofl
    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    Are you honestly trying to assert (even to yourself!) that God can tell his chosen people to smite the necks of Kaffir (which Mohammed ordered done to the helpless prisoners of the Banu Quarayza tribe, where the men were beheaded and the women turned into sex slaves like the current day Yazidi) but when he says wives are to be beaten it is with a twig??
    Neither Allah nor Muhammad are even supposed to have mentioned the ridiculous "tap with a twig" command. The Qur'an mentions only beating/striking and the Hadith of Muhammad mentions only for it to not be too harsh or leave a mark. This is definitely sanctioning domestic violence and abuse. "rofl"
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    (Original post by wdkmwd)
    One of my posts just got reported.


    LMAO, i guess that's muslims favourite defence.
    I wouldn't be surprised if half the posts on this thread have been reported for being 'not constructive' or some other such guff.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I wouldn't be surprised if half the posts on this thread have been reported for being 'not constructive' or some other such guff.


    I got reported for making a joke about a law PERMITTED in Islam.

    It's not like what i said isn't true, i just made a joke about it.



    I wonder what would happen if I report a post of a muslim making fun of the trinity.
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    I made 10 posts in total on this thread, and 8 of them got reported.


    So much for "I can defend Islam"
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    (Original post by wdkmwd)
    I made 10 posts in total on this thread, and 8 of them got reported.


    So much for "I can defend Islam"
    I suggest that you make a thread about it in the AtCT forum. Certain members have very recently been warned against this sort of mass-reporting behaviour, so I'm sure the CT would be interested to know who reported all those posts.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I suggest that you make a thread about it in the AtCT forum. Certain members have very recently been warned against this sort of mass-reporting behaviour, so I'm sure the CT would be interested to know who reported all those posts.


    I already made a thread there out of anger, but i think the will only issue me another warning because of the vulgarity i used in it haha.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I wouldn't be surprised if half the posts on this thread have been reported for being 'not constructive' or some other such guff.
    I can imagine the thought of the prophet going around reporting posts...

    (Inb4 this gets reported)

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