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A New Islamic Perspective on Evolution... Watch

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    Oh Dear.

    I hope you are aware that Christians have proposed this sort of "god of the gaps" before as well.

    I must insist that you stop plagiarising dead creationist arguments, and rebranding it as a "new Islamic Perspective".

    Besides, genetic and DNA (specially mitochondrial) evidence (never mind fossilised records) have proven to show your claim to be false. Evidence have gone as far as to track human migration out of our origin (Africa).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent..._modern_humans

    You haven't provided any counter-evidence to show that evolution stopped. Whatever happened to the "humanoids but not humans" you speak of?
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    You can't have this discussion because Islamic Scholars fail to understand what the word ''theory'' means in the scientific sense and instead take the everyday meaning of the word, and apply that definition to when scientists use the world.


    I can't tell if these Islamic scholars are intentionally being dishonest to support their ideas or if they really are that stupid.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    video by Dr Yasir Qadhi

    Spoiler:
    Show
    "For us the word of Allah is more scientific than any scientific fact that we have."

    Claims to have once been a scientist lol.

    A must-watch, guys!
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    (Original post by Agrippatropes)
    "For us the word of Allah is more scientific than any scientific fact that we have."

    Claims to have once been a scientist lol.

    A must-watch, guys!
    A simple wiki search tells you all you need to know.

    He has a degree in Chemical Engineering, which is good but not a scientist. Anyway besides that, his other qualifications are more interesting.

    B.A Islamic Sciences (Note B.A. not BSc... and Islamic "sciences" )
    M.A. Islamic Creed (erm what?)
    Associates degree Arabic Language
    M.Phil Islamic Studies
    PhD Islamic Studies

    .... Saudi money runs deep through him.

    "At the age of 17 Qadhi became influenced by the Salafi teacher Ali al-Tamimi, who was subsequently sentenced to life for inciting terrorism.He studied under al-Tamimi and stated that he "played an instrumental role in shaping and directing me to take the path that has led me to where I am today."" - Oh dear

    Note the lack of a biology related qualification. And yet, Islamists grill us about criticising Islam without "properly studying it like the scholars"...
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    I think it's important to note also that evolution doesn't just "start" with a simple unicellular organism (as many people say God created the first bacterium etc). There is evolution between what we call "non-life" and "life" i.e. there is no single point where chemistry becomes biology per say. Self-replicating molecules such as RNA aren't that rare in fact as we see many complex organic compounds form on asteroids etc and all it takes to kick start evolution is the synthesis of one self-replicating molecule from a "chemical soup"(which we have created under lab conditions) that is prone to making mistakes on some replications (mutations). Although this theory of Abiogenesis is technically a "theory", it seems pretty obvious that God/Allah or one of the other 10,000 religous deities "creating" life to kick start evolution is flawed when the process is clearly capable of taking place on an independent chemical level.
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    Except that humans have so many flaws and vestigial bits and pieces, as well as the massive mountains of evidence of our evolutionary history and the fact that evolution doesn't happen in stages.

    This is a god of the gaps argument without a gap.
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    (Original post by Gwilym101)
    Except that humans have so many flaws and vestigial bits and pieces, as well as the massive mountains of evidence of our evolutionary history and the fact that evolution doesn't happen in stages.

    This is a god of the gaps argument without a gap.
    Can't be summarised any better.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    1) Allah creates the world and the first cell's or the first living organisms.
    2) Evolution takes place and animals evolve from through the generations by natural selection.
    3) When it comes to the evolution of man (Homosapiens), you have apes (at one point) evolving throughout time and some of them are looking more and more like humans (humanoids etc).
    4) Finally we reach a point when the very next evolution should be the homo-sapiens. This is when Allah creates Adam and his wife Eve, without the need of them being born, hence, no evolution. Evolution in all other animals continue but man was created in one go, despite many similar organisms looking like it.
    That's pretty much already exists as a Christian perspective.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    So... I'm aware of how accepted evolution has become in the scientific community (by theists too). Whilst it's called the 'Theory of Evolution', it's as much as a theory as is the 'Theory of Gravity'. Which is why many call it a fact.

    I watched a video by Dr Yasir Qadhi, who explains how Islam can accept the theory of evolution. I'll put it in the spoiler.

    If you're not bothered to watch it, as it's 30 minutes long, I'll just summarize the Islamic stance on evolution below (don't judge me if I got some or a lot of the science wrong ):

    1) Allah creates the world and the first cell's or the first living organisms.
    2) Evolution takes place and animals evolve from through the generations by natural selection.
    3) When it comes to the evolution of man (Homosapiens), you have apes (at one point) evolving throughout time and some of them are looking more and more like humans (humanoids etc).
    4) Finally we reach a point when the very next evolution should be the homo-sapiens. This is when Allah creates Adam and his wife Eve, without the need of them being born, hence, no evolution. Evolution in all other animals continue but man was created in one go, despite many similar organisms looking like it.

    I know a lot of guys will think Islam (and of course other religions) can/are just bending the rules and trying to keep modern science in line with the religious beliefs; in this case evolution. But, as long as there's no contradiction (so far), it's still logical and it basically works.

    Any (logical, argumentative and critical) thoughts?
    Spoiler:
    Show
    We know that it's possible for cellular life to emerge spontaneously (even if we can't gauge how likely this is) so there's no reason why you need Step 1. The other issue here is that you're assuming that humanity is the pinnacle of evolution, which really isn't the case. In terms of evolutionary success, humans are not the ultimate evolutionary product, not by a long margin (that honour would go to monocellular life). There's no need for intelligent design, humans are just one result from the arms race that is complex life. I'd also add that there's no evidence for a sudden, god-like emergence of Homo sapiens.

    Evolutionary biology does a very good job of explaining biodiversity through time, we don't need to invoke a God to understand it. If you want to believe that God started the universe then okay, but the idea that evolution doesn't do a good job of explaining life on Earth really isn't scientifically defensible.

    (Original post by Gwilym101)
    and the fact that evolution doesn't happen in stages.
    Well it sort of does actually, but not in the way OP is saying it. Natural selection is not a steady chronometer that has continued at a constant pace throughout the Earth's history, there have been periods of very little evolutionary change and periods of incredibly rapid evolutionary change.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Well it sort of does actually, but not in the way OP is saying it. Natural selection is not a steady chronometer that has continued at a constant pace throughout the Earth's history, there have been periods of very little evolutionary change and periods of incredibly rapid evolutionary change.
    True, the way his argument read seemed more along the lines of stepping stones than what evolution actually does.
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    (Original post by chemting)
    Oh Dear.

    I hope you are aware that Christians have proposed this sort of "god of the gaps" before as well.

    I must insist that you stop plagiarising dead creationist arguments, and rebranding it as a "new Islamic Perspective".

    Besides, genetic and DNA (specially mitochondrial) evidence (never mind fossilised records) have proven to show your claim to be false. Evidence have gone as far as to track human migration out of our origin (Africa).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent..._modern_humans

    You haven't provided any counter-evidence to show that evolution stopped. Whatever happened to the "humanoids but not humans" you speak of?
    Lol. I don't have any evidence. I have proposed my thoughts though in the last post about probability, and also the possibility of them dying out.

    (Original post by Harami Salami)
    You can't have this discussion because Islamic Scholars fail to understand what the word ''theory'' means in the scientific sense and instead take the everyday meaning of the word, and apply that definition to when scientists use the world.


    I can't tell if these Islamic scholars are intentionally being dishonest to support their ideas or if they really are that stupid.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
    Lol, did you even watch this video? The guy clearly addresses this issue.

    (Original post by Gwilym101)
    Except that humans have so many flaws and vestigial bits and pieces, as well as the massive mountains of evidence of our evolutionary history and the fact that evolution doesn't happen in stages.

    This is a god of the gaps argument without a gap.
    Humans may have small flaws but we can and do survive without them interfering. Why does God need to make them flawless. We're not the ultimate species physically and God's intention was that exactly. I think it makes more sense that He didn't create us with wings, impenetrable skin and the ability to run at light speed.
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    (Original post by Flandogz)
    I think it's important to note also that evolution doesn't just "start" with a simple unicellular organism (as many people say God created the first bacterium etc). There is evolution between what we call "non-life" and "life" i.e. there is no single point where chemistry becomes biology per say. Self-replicating molecules such as RNA aren't that rare in fact as we see many complex organic compounds form on asteroids etc and all it takes to kick start evolution is the synthesis of one self-replicating molecule from a "chemical soup"(which we have created under lab conditions) that is prone to making mistakes on some replications (mutations). Although this theory of Abiogenesis is technically a "theory", it seems pretty obvious that God/Allah or one of the other 10,000 religous deities "creating" life to kick start evolution is flawed when the process is clearly capable of taking place on an independent chemical level.
    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    We know that it's possible for cellular life to emerge spontaneously (even if we can't gauge how likely this is) so there's no reason why you need Step 1. The other issue here is that you're assuming that humanity is the pinnacle of evolution, which really isn't the case. In terms of evolutionary success, humans are not the ultimate evolutionary product, not by a long margin (that honour would go to monocellular life). There's no need for intelligent design, humans are just one result from the arms race that is complex life. I'd also add that there's no evidence for a sudden, god-like emergence of Homo sapiens.

    Evolutionary biology does a very good job of explaining biodiversity through time, we don't need to invoke a God to understand it. If you want to believe that God started the universe then okay, but the idea that evolution doesn't do a good job of explaining life on Earth really isn't scientifically defensible.


    Well it sort of does actually, but not in the way OP is saying it. Natural selection is not a steady chronometer that has continued at a constant pace throughout the Earth's history, there have been periods of very little evolutionary change and periods of incredibly rapid evolutionary change.
    I have read about the RNA world, and the theory looks plausible but of course not a fact. I'm not saying the this Islamic perspective proves God exists because it doesn't. I'm saying the Theory of Evolution (without God) can't anymore disprove the existence of God (of monotheistic religions at least).
    Spoiler:
    Show
    BTW these two answers were the best so far. Thanks.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    I have read about the RNA world, and the theory looks plausible but of course not a fact. I'm not saying the this Islamic perspective proves God exists because it doesn't. I'm saying the Theory of Evolution (without God) can't anymore disprove the existence of God (of monotheistic religions at least).
    Spoiler:
    Show
    BTW these two answers were the best so far. Thanks.
    Evolution through natural selection definitely doesn't disprove the idea of God, however it does propose a very convincing explanation for how incredibly complex life can emerge from inanimate chemistry and I would regard it as an argument against intelligent design.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    Humans may have small flaws but we can and do survive without them interfering. Why does God need to make them flawless. We're not the ultimate species physically and God's intention was that exactly. I think it makes more sense that He didn't create us with wings, impenetrable skin and the ability to run at light speed.
    The emphasis was more on the vestigial bits and pieces as alot of our biological flaws are throwbacks from our evolutionary history. For instance things like the appendix that we completely don't need any more that can get inflammed and kill us. However even harmless stuff like the fact we have vestigial muscles around our ears or in our wrists, from when our evolutionary history had species that needed to move their ears or climb trees respectively, point to evolutionary origins.

    I think it makes more sense that a deity didn't create us at all and we're the product of evolution as all the evidence points to. As I said, God of the Gaps argument without any gap.

    I do always find it amusing that the religious, who are supposed to be humble towards a god that is so far above them in everyway that his intentions are inherently unknowable, then presume to know their God's intentions.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Evolution through natural selection definitely doesn't disprove the idea of God, however it does propose a very convincing explanation for how incredibly complex life can emerge from inanimate chemistry and I would regard it as an argument against intelligent design.
    True. But I don't usually see the complexity of the human body used as arguments for intelligent design by theists (apart from my beliefs about the conscious which I think we discussed?). It's a better argument for the complexity of the cosmos.
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    (Original post by Gwilym101)
    The emphasis was more on the vestigial bits and pieces as alot of our biological flaws are throwbacks from our evolutionary history. For instance things like the appendix that we completely don't need any more that can get inflammed and kill us. However even harmless stuff like the fact we have vestigial muscles around our ears or in our wrists, from when our evolutionary history had species that needed to move their ears or climb trees respectively, point to evolutionary origins.

    I think it makes more sense that a deity didn't create us at all and we're the product of evolution as all the evidence points to. As I said, God of the Gaps argument without any gap.

    I do always find it amusing that the religious, who are supposed to be humble towards a god that is so far above them in everyway that his intentions are inherently unknowable, then presume to know their God's intentions.
    This follows the Theory of Evolution and links back to how Adam was the next in line to be the first homo sapien, but instead of Adam being born he was created separately. So it may seem like man did evolve but did not actually. Hence, why there are similarities between us and creatures in the past.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    I have read about the RNA world, and the theory looks plausible but of course not a fact. I'm not saying the this Islamic perspective proves God exists because it doesn't. I'm saying the Theory of Evolution (without God) can't anymore disprove the existence of God (of monotheistic religions at least).
    Spoiler:
    Show
    BTW these two answers were the best so far. Thanks.
    I'd say where we disagree is on whether evolution should be described as theory or fact. I can see what you mean when you say that it is as much a "theory" as gravity, however it is a fact that organisms have changed over time whether it be shown in the fossil record or genetically. I'd argue that evolution is technically a fact since it essentially means organisms have changed over time, however, there is "evolutionary theory" used to describe the "causes" of evolution i.e. Natural selection. Also, I don't take the view that it disproves god but more along the lines that it contradicts many ideas including the idea that "humans are special" and in particular, "do humans have souls if we evolved from bacterium so must they also have souls?".
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    This follows the Theory of Evolution and links back to how Adam was the next in line to be the first homo sapien, but instead of Adam being born he was created separately. So it may seem like man did evolve but did not actually. Hence, why there are similarities between us and creatures in the past.
    If only there was verifiable evidence... oh wait there is and it all points to us evolving. Evolution is not a conveyor belt, there is no next in line to be the first anything.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Who cares what religious people think of evolution. It happens whether anyone believes in it or not.

    If your religion is incompatible with facts, your religion is wrong.


    But where are the facts for evolution? Surely you can't actually scientifically test and prove evolution?
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    So... I'm aware of how accepted evolution has become in the scientific community (by theists too). Whilst it's called the 'Theory of Evolution', it's as much as a theory as is the 'Theory of Gravity'. Which is why many call it a fact.

    I watched a video by Dr Yasir Qadhi, who explains how Islam can accept the theory of evolution. I'll put it in the spoiler.

    If you're not bothered to watch it, as it's 30 minutes long, I'll just summarize the Islamic stance on evolution below (don't judge me if I got some or a lot of the science wrong ):

    1) Allah creates the world and the first cell's or the first living organisms.
    2) Evolution takes place and animals evolve from through the generations by natural selection.
    3) When it comes to the evolution of man (Homosapiens), you have apes (at one point) evolving throughout time and some of them are looking more and more like humans (humanoids etc).
    4) Finally we reach a point when the very next evolution should be the homo-sapiens. This is when Allah creates Adam and his wife Eve, without the need of them being born, hence, no evolution. Evolution in all other animals continue but man was created in one go, despite many similar organisms looking like it.

    I know a lot of guys will think Islam (and of course other religions) can/are just bending the rules and trying to keep modern science in line with the religious beliefs; in this case evolution. But, as long as there's no contradiction (so far), it's still logical and it basically works.

    Any (logical, argumentative and critical) thoughts?
    Spoiler:
    Show

    It all makes sense other than the first point: If Allah created all the cells, who created Allah's cells?
 
 
 
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