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    (Original post by Kvothe the arcane)
    Because I am cynical and I am tempted to dismiss a lot of what I hear these days in terms of gender as being a Tumblrism that snowflakes employ to make themselves feel more special. However my opinion has changed somewhat and I'm trying to educate myself.
    There's a difference between being "educated" (since the act of education requires fact) and listening then believing the ideologies behind an agenda. Just saying.
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    (Original post by ComputerMaths97)
    There's a difference between being "educated" (since the act of education requires fact) and listening then believing the ideologies behind an agenda. Just saying.
    I have some scepticism but it is only fair that I understand what they mean before I form my own opinion. It is not good to let your incredulity blind you.
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    I don't have time to reply now but I recommend this for some thoughts on what gender is. It's a question of much debate and extensive theory if you really want to get into it
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    I identify as an apache attack helicopter.
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    (Original post by BKS)
    I don't have time to reply now but I recommend this for some thoughts on what gender is. It's a question of much debate and extensive theory if you really want to get into it
    Thank you. I have used that plato site previously when I was researching causal determinism and free will (procrastinating). I shall have a ready when I get home .
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    (Original post by Kvothe the arcane)
    Thank you. I have used that plato site previously when I was researching causal determinism and free will (procrastinating). I shall have a ready when I get home .
    No problem. Might take you all evening

    I might relpy to your actual question later if I have time
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    (Original post by BKS)
    I don't have time to reply now but I recommend this for some thoughts on what gender is. It's a question of much debate and extensive theory if you really want to get into it
    I highly recommend skepticism when reading this source about gender.

    For example:

    Commonly observed behavioural traits associated with women and men, then, are not caused by anatomy or chromosomes. Rather, they are culturally learned or acquired.
    ...just makes me facepalm so hard. Really? Chromosomes have no real in sex differences in psychology and behaviour? Do you even testosterone? This just flies in the face of current scientific understanding of the way hormones have organizing effects on the developing brain.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    I highly recommend skepticism when reading this source about gender.

    For example:



    ...just makes me facepalm so hard. Really? Chromosomes have no real in sex differences in psychology and behaviour? Do you even testosterone? This just flies in the face of current scientific understanding of the way hormones have organizing effects on the developing brain.
    I don't think you are fairly representing the article overall, it's a summary of pretty much all the main theories of gender that are taken serious in academics. Stanford do a really good job of providing pretty objective summaries. It's not arguing for a particular view but rather giving information for you to consider
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    I highly recommend skepticism when reading this source about gender.

    For example:


    ...just makes me facepalm so hard. Really? Chromosomes have no real in sex differences in psychology and behaviour? Do you even testosterone? This just flies in the face of current scientific understanding of the way hormones have organizing effects on the developing brain.
    I always approach things with a pinch of salt in hand. I will read the source later. And yes, I've heard people say that sex and gender are both social constructs. :facepalm:
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    Somewhere down the line, humans thought you have a penis, you have a vagina so we're going to attach certain characteristics to you purely because of your genitals.
    It's obvious gender is a spectum and not based on your biological sex (they're two different things people).
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    (Original post by Kvothe the arcane)
    But gender expression is not the same thing as gender identity. So it's possible for someone to identify as male while exhibiting feminine behaviours or wearing feminine clothing.

    I just wonder how you can identify as a gender that doesn't exist. Or how you can go from feeling male to female in the space of a day.


    Because I am cynical and I am tempted to dismiss a lot of what I hear these days in terms of gender as being a Tumblrism that snowflakes employ to make themselves feel more special. However my opinion has changed somewhat and I'm trying to educate myself.
    But non-binary genders DO EXIST. That's the point. I don't know what gender is but I know that I'm not a woman and I'm not a man either. I think I have a gender but I can't pick it out except by eliminating things I've heard of and thinking 'not that'. I also theoretically understand the concepts of 'feminine' and 'masculine' and could tell you what clothes, behaviours etc. are considered to fit broadly into those categories but then don't feel either feminine or masculine at all, even when I act or dress in ways that society puts in one of those boxes.
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    Well, the words sex and gender used to be interchangeable. Nowadays, however, the former refers to one's biological/reproductive place in the species, and the latter generally denotes the range of behaviors, appearances and social norms that typically accompany sex.

    People are quick to say gender is 100% an arbitrary social construct, but I think it goes somewhat deeper than that. Much of the way we behave and view ourselves can be an inherent product of our psychology, physiology, and evolution as a species.
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    (Original post by BKS)
    I don't think you are fairly representing the article overall, it's a summary of pretty much all the main theories of gender that are taken serious in academics. Stanford do a really good job of providing pretty objective summaries. It's not arguing for a particular view but rather giving information for you to consider
    These are NOT mainstream ideas in academia. In feminism or certain flavours of social psychology perhaps, but not by biologists, endocrinologists or most sane people.

    Notice how the article is all "de Beauvoir says this, McKinnon says that, Butler says the other" rather than actually reviewing scientific evidence. Pick up an endocrinology and embryology textbook if you want reliable information.

    Later on it suggests that differences between men and women's musculature is due to differences in exercise rather than puberty. Now we are in proper crazy territory.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    These are NOT mainstream ideas in academia. In feminism or certain flavours of social psychology perhaps, but not by biologists, endocrinologists or most sane people.

    Notice how the article is all "de Beauvoir says this, McKinnon says that, Butler says the other" rather than actually reviewing scientific evidence. Pick up an endocrinology and embryology textbook if you want reliable information.

    Later on it suggests that differences between men and women's musculature is due to differences in exercise rather than puberty. Now we are in proper crazy territory.
    I obviously can't possibly agree with every theory proposed there but you are effectively dismissing all of social science which is quite ridiculous. I think theory of gender would benefit from more discourse between science and social science but I think it has to be understood within it's social and cultural context so ultimately social science has a lot to contribute
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    (Original post by BKS)
    I obviously can't possibly agree with every theory proposed there but you are effectively dismissing all of social science which is quite ridiculous. I think theory of gender would benefit from more discourse between science and social science but I think it has to be understood within it's social and cultural context so ultimately social science has a lot to contribute
    Postmodern social science isn't science, gender "studies" teach a mix of poli sci theory + ethics philosophy, when you study any human trait you must always acknowledge genetics,the forgotten confounder in most social science research.

    Gender isn't simply just a social construct like most feminists want you to believe.
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    (Original post by annaew)
    Postmodern social science isn't science, gender "studies" teach a mix of poli sci theory + ethics philosophy, when you study any human trait you must always acknowledge genetics,the forgotten confounder in most social science research.

    Gender isn't simply just a social construct like most feminists want you to believe.
    I'm not sure I'd go just go genetics but like I said 'I think theory of gender would benefit from more discourse between science and social science'. Not even just in terms of gender, I think there are lots of areas where each would benifit from the input of the other
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    (Original post by Kvothe the arcane)
    x
    Please watch this:


    Also, Joan Scott and Judith Butler are absolutely phenomenal, please read their articles on gender. Joan Scott - Gender as a Category of Analysis is exquisite
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    (Original post by BKS)
    I obviously can't possibly agree with every theory proposed there but you are effectively dismissing all of social science which is quite ridiculous. I think theory of gender would benefit from more discourse between science and social science but I think it has to be understood within it's social and cultural context so ultimately social science has a lot to contribute
    ??? I'm not doing any such thing. I'm pointing out the flaws in the article. A discussion of sex and gender without fairly considering hormones, biology, and other species is limited and misleading.

    I'm a social scientist myself. Of course it has a lot to offer our understanding of sex and gender. But certain extremist social scientists have a long history of ignoring biology and evolution in trying to understand humans.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    ??? I'm not doing any such thing. I'm pointing out the flaws in the article. A discussion of sex and gender without fairly considering hormones, biology, and other species is limited and misleading.

    I'm a social scientist myself. Of course it has a lot to offer our understanding of sex and gender. But certain extremist social scientists have a long history of ignoring biology and evolution in trying to understand humans.
    Your middle paragraph especially very much reads to me like you're saying everything should be science but miscommunication then

    I think it's probably worth noting as well this is a summary, what it doesn't say is what science went in to the development of each theory. I think it'd be wrong to assume none of them at all have anything to do with science
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    (Original post by BKS)
    Your middle paragraph especially very much reads to me like you're saying everything should be science but miscommunication then
    What else should we use except science? Social science should be scientific too.
 
 
 
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