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Personal freedom is over rated Watch

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    A lot of people are going to call me a troll, because anything against the status quo on this site is "trolling". I can assure you, this isn't.

    All my life I've thought freedom to be the most valuable ideal for a society. The capitalist dream, everyone is free to do whatever they want, when ever they want.

    But recently I've been wondering, why? Why is freedom so important? Why should what's good for individuals be put before what's good for society?
    What a selfish and entitled way to think. All I see it doing is hampering the efficiency of society.

    The concept of freedom is a backwards notion from times when no order was imposed. Look at prehistoric times and the tribalism that occurred. Look at the Wild West. Look at Somalia. Are we really that backwards as a species?

    Why should we allow corporations to be free to market burgers and cola to a nation dying from obesity and diabetes?

    Why should we allow hate groups to divide and demonise our fellow countrymen?

    Why should we allow other ideologies to divide and segregate us?

    Would it be so bad if the state stopped such toxins from poisoning its people?

    Imagine how much progress we could make if everyone was united by working towards creating a better society as opposed to working towards their own selfish goals and desires.

    Imagine how much happier we'd all be with a greater purpose in life as opposed to sitting around all day wasting our lives glued to the Internet or reality television.
    If we were forced to excel as opposed to being left to wallow in mediocrity.

    Imagine living for a reason, as opposed to existing for nothing.
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    You can imagine all you want but it won't happen.

    Humans are inherently stupid and selfish to a fault.

    And most of the things you mentioned are only toxic because we allow them to be. If we made sound decisions as individuals we wouldn't have most of those problems, but we don't.
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    (Original post by BristolFresher15)
    You can imagine all you want but it won't happen.

    Humans are inherently stupid and selfish to a fault.

    And most of the things you mentioned are only toxic because we allow them to be. If we made sound decisions as individuals we wouldn't have most of those problems, but we don't.
    Exactly, your everyman shouldn't have the freedom to make those decisions in the first place. History has proven we aren't responsible enough. We need a hand to guide us and a cause to work towards. Left to our own devices our ambitions are petty and selfish.
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    (Original post by BhagwanNoBhool)
    Exactly, your everyman shouldn't have the freedom to make those decisions in the first place. History has proven we aren't responsible enough. We need a hand to guide us and a cause to work towards. Left to our own devices our ambitions are petty and selfish.
    Yes, but because we're inherently selfish; trying to take away personal freedom will result in mass outrage and descent into anarchy. There's no winning in that scenario.
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    (Original post by BristolFresher15)
    Yes, but because we're inherently selfish; trying to take away personal freedom will result in mass outrage and descent into anarchy. There's no winning in that scenario.
    I'm not so sure. If the state can offer a good enough deal (which it should) people wont be that concerned about personal freedom. People want comfort and an easy life more then anything else.
    The state should provide healthcare, housing, work and education for its people in return for obedience and cooperation. Of course getting to that stage will be difficult. The current government will have to be removed by force.
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    I agree... I love a bit of bondage, if you smell me cuz
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    (Original post by BhagwanNoBhool)
    A lot of people are going to call me a troll, because anything against the status quo on this site is "trolling". I can assure you, this isn't.

    All my life I've thought freedom to be the most valuable ideal for a society. The capitalist dream, everyone is free to do whatever they want, when ever they want.

    But recently I've been wondering, why? Why is freedom so important? Why should what's good for individuals be put before what's good for society?
    What a selfish and entitled way to think. All I see it doing is hampering the efficiency of society.

    The concept of freedom is a backwards notion from times when no order was imposed. Look at prehistoric times and the tribalism that occurred. Look at the Wild West. Look at Somalia. Are we really that backwards as a species?

    Why should we allow corporations to be free to market burgers and cola to a nation dying from obesity and diabetes?

    Why should we allow hate groups to divide and demonise our fellow countrymen?

    Why should we allow other ideologies to divide and segregate us?

    Would it be so bad if the state stopped such toxins from poisoning its people?

    Imagine how much progress we could make if everyone was united by working towards creating a better society as opposed to working towards their own selfish goals and desires.

    Imagine how much happier we'd all be with a greater purpose in life as opposed to sitting around all day wasting our lives glued to the Internet or reality television.
    If we were forced to excel as opposed to being left to wallow in mediocrity.

    Imagine living for a reason, as opposed to existing for nothing.
    I'm not really sure what your alternative is. Remove autonomy and force everyone to work towards some 'common goal', which is decided by whom exactly?

    What would a human stripped of autonomy be?
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    I'm not really sure what your alternative is. Remove autonomy and force everyone to work towards some 'common goal', which is decided by whom exactly?

    What would a human stripped of autonomy be?
    In essence the removal of personal freedom and the culture around it. Change the question "How can I make things better for myself?" to "How can I make things better for society?"

    Motivations would come from the pride in serving the nation as opposed to serving yourself.


    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    In a sense, we do work together for a better society (i.e: our own). The only difference lies in where we draw the line between our society and someone else's society.

    Is it among townships, city-wide, nationalistic, regional, international, tribal, religious, racial, ethnic, gender or any number of dividing lines?

    What makes one more rational or logical than the other? Are they equally as valid? Who or what determines the make-up of society?
    Spoiler:
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    All questions which I have no answer to.
    Sort of. We work for ourselves and the roles we fill help society function on a basic level. But there is no common concern for each other, we're all competing against each other. Look at America's reaction to giving their own countrymen basic free healthcare, they're so absorbed in themselves that the idea of doing something to help another person is disgusting. Look at our own society, people who genuinely need benefits are treated as parasites. We've been conditioned to see other people's benefit as a bad thing. It's always us vs them, identity politics are dividing us all.

    As far as I'm concerned our society is our nation, the UK. Other nations should be left to do as they please, however our responsibility is making our society the best it can be.

    I don't care about gender, race, sexuality or any other innate characteristics. Our countrymen are our countrymen. Everyone who contributes to society are equals as far as I'm concerned.

    I don't have all the answers myself either, this way of thinking is very new to me. I've not had much time to think out everything, I posted it here to get some outside perspectives to help shape my views.
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    (Original post by BhagwanNoBhool)
    In essence the removal of personal freedom and the culture around it. Change the question "How can I make things better for myself?" to "How can I make things better for society?"

    Motivations would come from the pride in serving the nation as opposed to serving yourself.
    Where does the power to dictate to others how they should live their lives come from, and why is that power legitimate?
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    (Original post by pjm600)
    Where does the power to dictate to others how they should live their lives come from, and why is that power legitimate?
    Nowhere. There is no such thing as legitimate power, it's only exists in democracies.
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    (Original post by BristolFresher15)
    You can imagine all you want but it won't happen.

    Humans are inherently stupid and selfish to a fault.

    And most of the things you mentioned are only toxic because we allow them to be. If we made sound decisions as individuals we wouldn't have most of those problems, but we don't.
    I don't know about that, there's a lot of 'irrational' and selfless people out there who put others needs before them, Maybe it's less of an inherent thing and more due to bad parenting and societal influences?
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    (Original post by BhagwanNoBhool)
    A lot of people are going to call me a troll, because anything against the status quo on this site is "trolling". I can assure you, this isn't.

    All my life I've thought freedom to be the most valuable ideal for a society. The capitalist dream, everyone is free to do whatever they want, when ever they want.

    But recently I've been wondering, why? Why is freedom so important? Why should what's good for individuals be put before what's good for society?
    What a selfish and entitled way to think. All I see it doing is hampering the efficiency of society.

    The concept of freedom is a backwards notion from times when no order was imposed. Look at prehistoric times and the tribalism that occurred. Look at the Wild West. Look at Somalia. Are we really that backwards as a species?

    Why should we allow corporations to be free to market burgers and cola to a nation dying from obesity and diabetes?

    Why should we allow hate groups to divide and demonise our fellow countrymen?

    Why should we allow other ideologies to divide and segregate us?

    Would it be so bad if the state stopped such toxins from poisoning its people?

    Imagine how much progress we could make if everyone was united by working towards creating a better society as opposed to working towards their own selfish goals and desires.

    Imagine how much happier we'd all be with a greater purpose in life as opposed to sitting around all day wasting our lives glued to the Internet or reality television.
    If we were forced to excel as opposed to being left to wallow in mediocrity.

    Imagine living for a reason, as opposed to existing for nothing.
    Well yes, I think most people accept that you've got to make sacrifices in personal freedoms for the greater good (I mean, if nobody agreed with that then we'd be living in anarchy). It's a question of to what extent you agree with this and yes, I do agree with the statements you've made.
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    These kinds of posts scare me.......


    I suggest you visit North Korea, or at least, the parts they allow you to see.
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    (Original post by BhagwanNoBhool)
    Nowhere. There is no such thing as legitimate power, it's only exists in democracies.
    Why is power legitimate if you consent to it? In which case there are no legitimate governments at the moment since democracies are actually republics with public representatives. Of course you can vote for a new representative, but at the end of the day you could also remove a tyrant by force, so haven't you consented to be governed by him if you offer no resistance?

    The strength of personal freedom rests in diversity and choice, the pursuit of happiness varies in accordance with each individuals desires and dreams, to force them into a collective will always cause substantial disagreement that could only be settled by force which is why some governments compromise and others fall into anarchy. You might think obesity is a bad thing, and for health reasons it clearly is, but if an individual becomes obese through their own choice why is that bad? They must learn from their mistakes, it is through taking risks and responsibility that civilisation is born, along with the predictability of law and order, unpredictability and docility to a state machine would lead to a society of passive slaves or rebels.
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    becauase I have a legitimate claim to own my own body - it's mine, not the government's. so I ought to control what I do with it. what's the opposite of somebody owning themselves? slavery, wasn't it? which principle do you prefer: freedom or slavery? I'm not making a dichotomy between statism and slavery, I'm making a principle contrast between them objectively
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    (Not got time to get deeply into this, so: believers in big government high five! I guess the biggest practical issue there seems to be with this is the fact that any government or regulatory board to decide on the appropriate infringements on people's rights to limit human error would have to be composed of... humans. Tricky! Practically I think you have to strike a balance between emphasis on freedom and emphasis on equality, though I'd definitely lean more towards equality than freedom.

    ...oops, said I wouldn't get into this. Ignore me!)
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    (Original post by BhagwanNoBhool)
    A lot of people are going to call me a troll, because anything against the status quo on this site is "trolling". I can assure you, this isn't.

    All my life I've thought freedom to be the most valuable ideal for a society. The capitalist dream, everyone is free to do whatever they want, when ever they want.

    But recently I've been wondering, why? Why is freedom so important? Why should what's good for individuals be put before what's good for society?
    What a selfish and entitled way to think. All I see it doing is hampering the efficiency of society.

    The concept of freedom is a backwards notion from times when no order was imposed. Look at prehistoric times and the tribalism that occurred. Look at the Wild West. Look at Somalia. Are we really that backwards as a species?

    Why should we allow corporations to be free to market burgers and cola to a nation dying from obesity and diabetes?

    Why should we allow hate groups to divide and demonise our fellow countrymen?

    Why should we allow other ideologies to divide and segregate us?

    Would it be so bad if the state stopped such toxins from poisoning its people?

    Imagine how much progress we could make if everyone was united by working towards creating a better society as opposed to working towards their own selfish goals and desires.

    Imagine how much happier we'd all be with a greater purpose in life as opposed to sitting around all day wasting our lives glued to the Internet or reality television.
    If we were forced to excel as opposed to being left to wallow in mediocrity.

    Imagine living for a reason, as opposed to existing for nothing.
    In this theoretical world how much power would the state have over the lives of individuals? If total (which is my interpretation of the original post), how would you ensure the people running the state would work towards the good of society?
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    Cola and Burgers don't give people obesity, people eating a whole load of **** is what gives people obesity. Religion/ ideologies don't segregate people, people judging and discriminating against other people is what segregates us.

    Look at it this way, as a world, we have just entered a new phase/ era where we have so much technology, everything at our fingertips, anything we could ask for, anything we need. There's going to be idiots who eat all the food and die, idiots who stay glued at their screens and waste away, idiots who refuse to move on from their backwards ideologies who will die out with the new generation coming on, but that's the thing. It's like too much of a good thing, some people can't handle it. Survival of the fittest right? The ones who don't have control, the ones who don't move with the world, will die out. And we will be left with a society that can function together, and will not be segregated, and will keep moving forward.

    It won't be in our lifetime, we were born at an awkward stage. It's like moving on to a new system from an old one, running them parallel until the new one is in full operation and the old one is dropped. We're in parallel mode famz soz
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    Isn't the general idea to overcome those issues via education, rather than totalitarianism?
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Isn't the general idea to overcome those issues via education, rather than totalitarianism?
    They aren't mutually exclusive. People would be educated on why this type of state is necessary. The problem with traditional education is, is that people's urges overcome higher reasoning too often.


    (Original post by whorace)
    Why is power legitimate if you consent to it? In which case there are no legitimate governments at the moment since democracies are actually republics with public representatives. Of course you can vote for a new representative, but at the end of the day you could also remove a tyrant by force, so haven't you consented to be governed by him if you offer no resistance?

    The strength of personal freedom rests in diversity and choice, the pursuit of happiness varies in accordance with each individuals desires and dreams, to force them into a collective will always cause substantial disagreement that could only be settled by force which is why some governments compromise and others fall into anarchy. You might think obesity is a bad thing, and for health reasons it clearly is, but if an individual becomes obese through their own choice why is that bad? They must learn from their mistakes, it is through taking risks and responsibility that civilisation is born, along with the predictability of law and order, unpredictability and docility to a state machine would lead to a society of passive slaves or rebels.
    I said there was no such thing as legitimate power. Power is power. What consent have I given to be ruled by our Government? I don't see how this is any different.

    Learning through our mistakes is wasted though. Every generation learns through mistakes, only for that knowledge to be lost as that generation fades and the new one takes power. History keeps repeating itself. The state is larger then any individual, it doesn't forget lessons learnt and has the power to influence everyone.

    That individual becoming fat is a drain on all society as well as to himself. It's selfish for him to consume unnecessarily as well as it's selfish for society to allow him to end up in such a state.
    Humans are happiest when passively following the flow with minimal responsibility, they crave direction in some form be it religion or another ideology. Call them slaves if you want, but they're happier this way.

    Variation has basically been the cause of every conflict ever, by minimising its effects we can live as peacefully as possible.


    (Original post by Inazuma)
    These kinds of posts scare me.......


    I suggest you visit North Korea, or at least, the parts they allow you to see.
    North Korea is a different culture formed under different circumstances by different people.


    (Original post by goala)
    In this theoretical world how much power would the state have over the lives of individuals? If total (which is my interpretation of the original post), how would you ensure the people running the state would work towards the good of society?
    Absolute power.
    The running of the state is the biggest issue with this and it's one I don't have a solid answer to.
    Obviously there would have to be some way to prevent the power hungry from twisting the system for their own gain to avoid a repeat of N.Korea or Pol Pot's Regime.
 
 
 
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