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    To give a less controversial example, Catholics believe that wine miraculously turns into the blood of Jesus, Protestants don't but both are still Christians.
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    (Original post by Marco1)
    You offer a peaceful Quran quote yet you avoid to use one of the many quotes which urge the exact opposite - i.e. murderous violence against unbelievers. Do you want me to rattle some off?
    It's only peaceful as it's for the children of Israel the next verse is for Muslims.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    My point is being overcomplicated and manipulated by people including yourself.

    My point is simple:

    ISIS represents a tiny portion of Islam, it is wrong to blame 1.5 billion Muslims for the atrocities committed by ISIS, and someone who has a favourable view of ISIS is not necessarily an ISIS supporter or extremist.
    if you are just looking '1.5 million ISIS members' thats fair enough - you are being rather simplistic however in forgetting
    the Pew research stating approx 68 million supporting IS .

    and thats just talking about IS, what about the hundred or so other islamic terrorist organisations all over the place? that figure could jump to the hundreds of millions.

    and then you have ppl that dont support specific islamic groups , but support the idea of jihad, caliphate, war on the the west/non muslims in general. the number swells even more. the underlying current under all of these is the islamist doctrine that when mixed in with political propagnda is possibly supported than more than half the islamic population of the the world. when that is the case, then extemeists terrorists can operate within their midsts without fear of being stopped.
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    (Original post by NicklLCFC)
    It will be easier than you think.

    The government has census information + there's teh electoral register + migrants already have to register with the home office, and there are also means to cross-reference across other information databases.

    How do you regulate integration? By asking if they go pub crawling and a cheeky kebab? Why should the UK scrutinize muslims who were born and bred here and work for socialist organisations like the NHS and love this country. Why should we take tests to prove our innocence? Why wouldn't you have to take tests. You're just being rude now. you first say that you're not pointing fingers at all muslims but now you want all UK muslims to take integration tests, you sure sit on the fence. So much so that I'm surprised that your arse isn't hurting.
    That British enough for you?

    Absolute love and peace

    NK
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    (Original post by NK18444)
    I do understand where you're coming from!
    Do you have any Muslim friends or relatives, do they know anyone that holds extremist views or has done anything terror related?
    I do stand by my belief that British muslims are level-headed as they've not had first hand experience of brutality, injustice or war due to foreign policy. So quite honestly I don't think that their are many young terrorist sympathisers in established counties such as Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi, Britain etc.
    It takes a person with extreme psychopathic tendencies to do half of the stuff that ISIS does and I can't imagine how they manipulate it into the words of Islam and get people to believe it, but really as much as I can debate and share my views I don't think that those that believe that a significant population of muslims hold extreme views is going to change their outlook on normal muslim folk walking down the street. We're not all bad, I promise
    Peace and love

    NK
    I don't think all muslims are bad. I've come across a completely mixed bag, exactly what you'll find in any demographic. One had a great heart, another belonged to a family which had extremist views.

    What is important is to understand that the surveys talked about so far aren't European. However, we shouldn't hide away if evidence exists that a significant amount hide these views.

    If I went to Egypt, Palestine or Pakistan and met many many extreme muslims, would I be right to dismiss there being many good ones? No. Is it not the same in reverse? If I only encountered many good muslims, I can't conclude a significant number of muslims don't hold extreme views. What's more, the surrounding environment plays a part. Compare views in Lebanon with Somalia for example.

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    One of the sociology teachers at my school lost someone in the blasts. We're having a one minute silence tomorrow at school.


    So so sad. I doubt it was revenge attack though.
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    (Original post by NK18444)
    "whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

    "to you is your religion and to me is my religion"- basically encouraging muslims to allow others to practice freely- Quran

    Peace and love

    NK
    That quote only applies to Muslim "souls", and only non-heretic ones at that.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Nobody (reasonable) is blaming all Muslims for the actions of the extremists (tens of thousands of them BTW).
    However, they are expected to take a realistic approach to the influence that Islamic ideology has on them. Simply saying "They are not Muslims" and "It has nothing to do with Islam" makes it appear as thought they are simply denying reality and avoiding a difficult issue.

    The problem is, when people have been brought up on a sanitised version of Islam that is not supported by the actual content of the Quran and sunnah, they find it difficult to accept the truth. That all the nasty stuff is in there along with the nice stuff that was cherry-picked for them. So they will execute (pardon the pun) all sorts of aplolgetic gymnastics and intellectual chicanery in order to distance themselves from their unacceptable relatives.

    However, they steadfastly refuse to take the one step that would actually make a difference, to reject the passages that can be used to justify the killing, oppression and discrimination.
    Bravo! Very apt and beautifully explained. You cut right to the heart of the matter.
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    (Original post by NK18444)
    Yes no doubt that the individuals carrying out the terrorist attack hid behind the label "Muslim". But I can't just go and say that that there is a link between rape and Catholicism because Myra Hindley and Ian Brady were mass rapists and murderers.
    False analogy.
    Hindley and Brady did not torture and kill those children because they interpreted passages of the Bible as giving them permission or instructing them to do it. They did not do what they did as part of a campaign to establish a world-wide, Christian theocracy.

    Muslims follow the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammed who enlisted murder as the second deadly sins. And what happened In Brussels today was purely murder, the killers may try to justify it as Jihad but all it shows is that they are cowards massacring innocent human beings, due to their lack of knowledge lack of understanding and sheer cruelty.
    Would you consider beheading several hundred innocent, defenceless men and boys (who were tied up, having surrendered to an invading army), as a "cowardly massacre" and "purely murder"?

    I'm Muslim and I don't intend to apologise for Islam or apologise for the people that have killed today,
    No one is asking you to apologise for these acts. You didn't do it.
    However, if you refuse to condemn the ideology that inspires these acts, you are giving tacit support.

    It's a bit like defending Mein Kampf while condemning the Nazis' treatment of the Jews.
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    And pictures of the suspects have been released: http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-35869266
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    (Original post by QE2)
    All the condemnations that I have seen seem to be based on the idea that what they are doing "is not Islamic". This suggests that if what they are doing was Islamic, they would support it.

    When you look at the scriptural justification that ISIS uses for its activities, we find that most of them appear to be supported by an unmodernised, literal interpretation of the Quran and sunnah. So what we appear to have in reality, is condemnation for "following a different interpretation of Islam", not for "being unislaimc".

    I guess.

    Not at all. It is important to judge individuals on the basis of their words and actions.
    However, Islam - as an ideology - is a threat to secular, liberal democracy. Not because every Muslim wants to overthrow it - they clearly don't - but because the ideology readily produces people who do.
    So you are saying that Islam calls for the destruction of our civilization.

    Could the same not be said of basically every other major religion, as they all call for a theocracy.

    It would seem they are, based on what you say and irrespective of their opinions on any issue, our de facto enemies by propagating this belief. How is it you can believe that they aren't all our enemies, yet believe this^^. I realise I have made a number of assumptions though.
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    (Original post by NK18444)
    "whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

    "to you is your religion and to me is my religion"- basically encouraging muslims to allow others to practice freely- Quran

    Peace and love

    NK
    Corruption and mischief are very vague terms though. Weren't Charlie Hebdo mischievous?

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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    My point is being overcomplicated and manipulated by people including yourself.

    My point is simple:

    ISIS represents a tiny portion of Islam, it is wrong to blame 1.5 billion Muslims for the atrocities committed by ISIS, and someone who has a favourable view of ISIS is not necessarily an ISIS supporter or extremist.
    The first pillar of Islam is "There is no god but God (and) Muhammad is the messenger of God."

    Allah in the quran (the book Muhammad had written) condoned and carried out genocide and terrorism, and Muhammad in reality carried out both.

    If all Muslims ascribe to this central tenet, then surely it is straightforward to label Islam a terrorist group like any other?
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    (Original post by NK18444)
    Did Hitlers acts have anything to do with Catholicism?
    Did Myra Hindley and Ian Brady's acts have anything to do with Christianity?
    These inhumane idiots have a warped perception of religion. Terrorism is not Islamic or Christian.

    Peace and love

    NK
    none of those could find any sort of religious justification for their crimes, nor do they try to do so. their motives had nothing to do with any faith. a better example may have been perhaps peter tobin, even so a loose connection an indeed this type of killer is few and far between when you compare to terorrists of islamic background. ALL islamic terrorist groups without exception draw inspiration form islamic doctrine- and apply it to modern political scenarios. its more problematic than any other becuase the muslim community as a whole refuses to aknowledge this issue and therefore they are left to run rampant int heir socieities
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    It's amusing that you're seriously telling me that we should blame all Muslims for the problems caused by an extremely small percentile of them.
    No. The point (and it really is very, very simple) is that we should blame Islam for the problems caused by that group of Muslims who insist on implementing an unmodernised and literalist interpretation of Islam, just as Islam tells them to do.

    Perhaps if you acquainted yourself with the nature of the content of the Quran and sunnah, and some of the fundamental tenets of the religion, you would find it easier to understand. It does involve a fair amount of reading though. You won't get it from apologists' or media soundbites.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Firstly, I do not pay much attention to polls, surveys or any other kind of statistical analysis that supposedly portrays someone as how you want to see them.

    There was this book that I came across (I'll let you know the name if I remember the name) that was explaining how society (especially the Western demographic) has become obsessed and fixated on learning about other people, other cultures, other systems of life through numbers (i.e: how many people support what and where). Essentially, we want information boiled down to numbers and nothing else.

    That is why I would genuinely discount any poll, survey or any other kind of statistical analysis that seeks to extrapolate the findings of a small minority of people upon a large group of people, especially with leading questions, in an attempt to confirm our own biases.


    Secondly, the questions are presented, viewed and swallowed by us from our own perspective. We make no effort to understand that in societies such as those in the Pew Research, positions are not seen as binary and are in a state of fluidity.

    In many Muslim countries, there are laws which prohibit what we consider to be homosexual activity (that of a relationship between members of the same sex) yet if you ask many of the men that engage in "homosexual" intercourse in their youths, hardly any of them (either active or passive) consider themselves homosexuals (Check out Stacey Dooley's: Sex in Strange Places - Turkey (On iPlayer)) yet it gives rise to interesting questions such as: Is homosexuality a choice? Can one change their sexual orientation?

    From our perspective, we have come to see things in a black and white scenario. We either support it or we don't. In many other cultures around the world, they see things in shades of grey. Will an action considered acceptable now be considered acceptable in another circumstance?

    Societies such as those, are constantly in a state of flux and I'll be damned if I'm going to pass judgement and form my views on billions of Muslims around the world based on the answers of a few thousand participants, who are given leading Western-centric questions.
    So essentially you have nothing useful to say.

    'What is your view on ISIS' is hardly a leading question.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    someone who has a favourable view of ISIS is not necessarily an ISIS supporter or extremist.
    completely wrong

    someone who has a favourable view of ISIS is an ISIS supporter, of course (if words mean anything) , and an extremist to boot

    he is not likely to report "fellow Muslims" preparing an attack, would he ? this makes him responsible for his omission. A crime, according to our legislation

    how is it possible not to call him an "extremist" ? who are extremists anyway, in your view ?
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    [QUOTE=NK18444;63579871]Did Hitlers acts have anything to do with Catholicism?
    /QUOTE]

    A better question is

    Did Hitler's acts have anything to do with his beliefs on racial supremacy?


    The answer being yes.
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    (Original post by teenhorrorstory)
    So essentially you have nothing useful to say.

    'What is your view on ISIS' is hardly a leading question.
    LOL. Got to love the manipulation on show.

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    (Original post by Slipandsquirm)
    OK.

    But here is the point people are trying to reply with.

    It is wrong and can very shown to be false, to make a clean, simple line dividing ISIS with the rest of the Muslim population. It has been shown by survey after survey for a decade (a strong cumulative case, with many surveys reinforcing the evidence) that many millions of worldwide muslims have the same views as ISIS.

    That apostates should be killed, that terrorist attacks are acceptable, that it is acceptable to retaliate with violence when someone draws Muhammad etc. Literally muslims, in some cases tell majority of countries, in the middle east and North Africa share these values and beliefs with ISIS.

    So, the main, basic point is - actually, ISIS and many other Muslims aren't completely different. They share extremist views. Again, in the millions.

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    No, you're incorrect.

    Surveys show that a tiny amount (but not a negligible amount) of Muslims have favourable views with regard to ISIS.

    This does NOT mean that they have the same views, it does not mean they are ISIS supporters, it does not mean they are extremists.

    It just means that when ISIS is mentioned, they think favourably of them. That could be for a variety of reasons, and not plainly that they have the same views as ISIS.

    For example, I think favourably of Jeremy Corbyn, even though there are many things I disagree on. My reasoning for thinking favourably of him is because he is consistent and if I were to vote for him, I would know what to expect. But that does not mean I share the same views, nor does it mean I am ultra left-wing.
 
 
 
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