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Two explosions at Brussels Airport, several injured watch

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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Yes, that is exactly the point I'm making, they have an interpretation of Islam, but it is still Islam and the claim that they are not true Muslims and are not inspired by Islamic ideology is false and actually dangerous, because it means we're not addressing the problem at its core.
    In the end it all leads to subjective statements tbh.
    You will claim it is still Islam, whereas a fair amount of Muslims will disagree with the actions of ISIS.

    The problem at its core is that ISIS have a large no. of people in the West believing their 'version' of Islam is the correct one.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    you have to accept that these islamists could not have operated under the radr in molenbeek ( a large islamic community) for so long with out tacit support from other community members.
    people seem to think ideology is not a problem , when it is at the root cause for pretty much all islamic terrorism. all it needs is a politcal motive to spark an attrocity .. all the apologists for islamic groups and their ideology are linked in some part to each attrocity im afraid.
    as I mentioned elsewhere, I live in Brussels, and I know Molenbeek quite well : it is of course some sort of Moroccan/Muslim enclave in Brussels, but most people living there are just normal people, trying to get on with their lives

    however : clannish, tribal, family solidarities run very strong, way beyond simple "Islamic" solidarity. This explains quite easily how jihadis had no problems in hiding out there

    also, young, unemployed Muslims feel unjustly discriminated and marginalised (and there is some sort of truth in this claim). So, they have developed this total estrangement from mainstream society, and feel the fascination of the romantic life in the Caliphate (guns, women, violence ...)

    It is highly symptomatic that most of Molenbeek jihadis already had some sort of criminal record for drug dealing, theft, car-jacking etc

    so, we have here a case of "rebels without a cause" finally finding a cause : as it happens, an Islamic cause

    but this is not a coincidence
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You seem to have mistaken me for someone else.
    I absolutely agree that the aims of certain islamist groups is a global caliphate under strict sharia based on a literal interpretation of the Quran and sunnah.

    As I said, the purpose of these attacks is not to bring the West to the negotiating table, or to secure withdrawal of forces. It is simply to engender a climate of fear and mistrust between Muslim communities and host nations, which they think will make more civil unrest more likely, thus furthering their agenda. The fact that other Asians or North Africans are caught up in the standoff is of little consequence to either the Islamists, or those racist xenophobes who use the situation to further their own agenda, and thus distracting those in the middle ground from the actual issue (there is nothing the liberal left fears more than accusations of racism).
    Sorry, I misunderstood your post.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    If you didn't get the vibe, I had enough of you twisting my words.
    i wanst really referring to your words, i just asked a simple question -
    what is your view on the islamic doctrine that these people are exposed tocant see why youd have an issue with answering that if you were being genuine
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    (Original post by Menakshelatte)
    terror attack in France?

    same thing can be said for brussel and istanbul too.
    I don't see it as especially hypocritical when an extremely rare event (for a Western country) is focused on more than an event that happens more commonly further away.
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    (Original post by Dumachi)
    To be fair, it's just as easily an image of a sunset so it does seem as if you're grasping at straws.


    Islam is just Muhammad's rip-off of Judaism, which he chose because he thought he could get the middle eastern Jewish tribes to unite behind him.
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    (Original post by Rk2k14)
    In the end it all lleads to subjective statements tbh.
    You will claim it is still Islam, whereas a fair amount of Muslims will disagree with the actions of ISIS.

    The problem at its core is that ISIS have a large no. of people in the West believing their 'version' of Islam is the correct one.
    If members of ISIS believe in Allah, Muhammad and quote the Quran then I find it impossible to see how anyone could, in an intellectually honest way say they are not Muslim. It's just that their version is a lot more literal and extreme which is why radicalisation that leads to this must be tackled. Crying "this has nothing to do with Islam", as well as being moronic, is just ignoring the problem.
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    (Original post by NK18444)
    the Quran encourages free religious practice
    Quran-
    “To you be your religion, to me be mine.”
    Does it?
    "Fight the disbelievers until there is no more shirk and all religion is for Allah". 8:39

    This was revealed some years after sura 109, so would abrogate it if there is any contradiction.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    There is an objective analysis of Islamist radicalism, its outreach to Muslim young people raised in the west and the ways we respond to that to prevent them carrying out actions like this and the need to deal firmly and finally with the IS threat and others.

    Then there are racism peddlers like Trump and Le Pen, seizing on this and an army of little followers.

    It's the latter that disgusts me and the way they leap on this. UKIP are no better.

    Trump is one of the most outrageous, with his ridiculous characterisations of European capitals like London, Paris and Brussels as collapsed warzones, rhetoric that plays perfectly into the hands of the reactionary and racist Christian Right in the US, who gyrate wildly to these Pavlovian bells.
    That Trump is a buffoon I will give you, and his apocalyptic narrative to portray himself as the saviour of a collapsing Western civilisation is farcical and distasteful. Jean-Marie Le Pen was unquestionably a racist too.

    But, though she still has the support of her father's fascist neanderthals, Le Pen has said nothing wrong to my knowledge. Her statement that radical mosques should be closed down is now being put into practice by Cazeneuve, the French interior minister. And her belief that people coming to France should abandon their culture if it is incompatible with French norms is uncontroversial.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    I don't see it as especially hypocritical when an extremely rare event (for a Western country) is focused on more than an event that happens more commonly further away.
    oh yeah? really? so you're saying that it's about distance?

    genocide in palestine? noone cares.
    terror attack in australia? everyone cares.
    whereas both countries are distant to uk.

    or, attack in israel? straight away front page.
    attack iraq? it doesn't matter.
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    It just proves my point that we are currently in the apocalypse...
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    as I mentioned elsewhere, I live in Brussels, and I know Molenbeek quite well : it is of course some sort of Moroccan/Muslim enclave in Brussels, but most people living there are just normal people, trying to get on with their lives

    however : clannish, tribal, family solidarities run very strong, way beyond simple "Islamic" solidarity. This explains quite easily how jihadis had no problems in hiding out there

    also, young, unemployed Muslims feel unjustly discriminated and marginalised (and there is some sort of truth in this claim). So, they have developed this total estrangement from mainstream society, and feel the fascination of the romantic life in the Caliphate (guns, women, violence ...)

    It is highly symptomatic that most of Molenbeek jihadis already had some sort of criminal record for drug dealing, theft, car-jacking etc

    so, we have here a case of "rebels without a cause" finally finding a cause : as it happens, an Islamic cause

    but this is not a coincidence
    it indeed cannot simply be put down to coincidence that many young males with past criminal histories do end up delving deep into islamic indoctrination and polticisation - drug dealers, rapists, gang members etc have all been shown to turn up amoung the ranks of islamic groups and commit attrociities in other places too.

    its a mystery to me why belgian authorities seem not to have any idea what is going on in these islamic enclaves, especialy if they are crime hotspots anyway. you suggest theres an issue with harrassment and marginalisation of muslim youth there - it seems as of now that there hasnt been enough to interfere with these sort of peoples plans.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    i wanst really referring to your words, i just asked a simple question -
    what is your view on the islamic doctrine that these people are exposed tocant see why youd have an issue with answering that if you were being genuine
    I am atheist, and I think that the world would be a better place without religion, I have no predisposition to Islam over Christianity or any other faith.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    I am atheist, and I think that the world would be a better place without religion, I have no predisposition to Islam over Christianity or any other faith.
    thats not what i asked
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    thats not what i asked
    make your question clearer, which doctrine
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    If you are unable to tell me exactly why I should accept the word of a few thousand people as authority for the views on billions of people, then there is nothing further to discuss.

    Unlike you and perhaps many others, I have no wish to stir up animosity purely for the sake of seeking validation for my biases. Unlike others, I have no vested interested in using such events to further my own Islamophobic agendas.

    I am taking issue with the conclusions drawn from a poll which some people have taken as "evidence". I do not believe it is worth the paper it was written on and I wished to make that clear.

    If you have any objections to what I have said, then please make them known to me but I can not stand by and allow gross negative distortions and misrepresentations, the precursor to a feeling of irrational views and hatred, without calling people out on it.

    Did you know that more people are killed by a falling coconut than in a shark attack?

    The phenomenon is referred to as, "Death by coconut".



    Of course it is. It tells us nothing of substance and only serves to ingrain within oneself, a sense of validation, for consumption of a mainly Western orientated audience.

    Do they like IS because it has brought some kind of stability from what was previously a corrupt regime? Do they dislike IS because it carries out beheadings? Are they looking at IS favourably because it is seen as taking on the "Great Satan"? Are they disgusted by the fact that IS seems to kill more Muslims than any other group?

    To understand why people look upon IS favourably, we need to understand the reasons if we are ever to combat it's popularity and showing me a poll with numbers isn't going to cut mustard.

    Yes, we may destroy IS militarily but if we fail to address the reasons for it's creation and growth, then we are simply going to for another go on the merry-go-round, this time with another barbaric group.

    The people surveyed in those countries have lived very different lives to us in the West and perhaps even Syria/Iraq and seeing IS how we see them is radically different to their own experiences.

    These people probably don't even care about surveys and polls or make decisions based on how something will play out in the public sphere. They make decisions based on their experiences and quantifying those experiences to a simple "Do you view ISIS favourably?" is irrelevant and tells me absolutely nothing so forgive me if I sit this latest episode of whipping up people, through gross distortions, manipulation and misrepresentations to support my Islamophobic agenda out.
    Lots of words there but very little actually said. Please try to keep your points concise and avoid waffling.You basically cannot accept the fact that from those surveyed, a shocking amount are either neutral towards IS, or are favourable to them.

    It's not a leading question. A leading question would be, 'To what extent do you agree that ISIS are a barbaric and evil group?'
    Simply asking what their views on IS are, is not leading since it does not indicate a certain response. The poll might not tell us a lot about why people hold such views, but you cannot dismiss it altogether simply because you don't like the results-which is essentially what you are doing. Had the results showed a strong disapproval and condemnation of IS, I'm sure you'd be glad to use it to show how Muslims do not support IS.

    You made a valid point about why it's important to understand why IS garner such support, but this doesn't reduce the validity of the results obtained from the poll.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    make your question clearer, which doctrine
    dont worrry about it. i think the answer was obvious a while back
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    (Original post by NK18444)
    I do understand where you're coming from!
    Do you have any Muslim friends or relatives, do they know anyone that holds extremist views or has done anything terror related?
    None of the Muslims I know IRL hold any such views, or even believe that apostates should be killed, adulterers stoned etc, or even that the entire Quran must be accepted as the perfect, literal truth (although they would very likely be persecuted by "True Muslims" like ISIS for rejecting parts of the Quran and sunnah.)

    However, I have encoutered several on here who hold such extreme views, and many more on sites like ummah.com.
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    (Original post by Menakshelatte)
    oh yeah? really? so you're saying that it's about distance?

    genocide in palestine? noone cares.
    terror attack in australia? everyone cares.
    whereas both countries are distant to uk.

    or, attack in israel? straight away front page.
    attack iraq? it doesn't matter.
    No, I said it was about rarity, shared cultural identity, and distance.

    I would also say that the Western world has "cared" for the Middle East quite considerably - in fact, many are of the opinion that they have "cared" too much, or at least inappropriately.
 
 
 
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