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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    I find it hilarious that you ignored everything I said.

    You said "no they don't" (about ISIS fighters not following proper Islam)

    I just freaking proved it to you, and you ignore it, you toolbox.
    IS are setting up a violent caliphate which is perfectly in keeping with islam as its exactly what the first caliphs did - you refused to comment on all my points hence you are still ignorant to that and various other facts.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)

    "as far as non-Muslims are concerned, ISIS's interpretation of Islam is just as valid as any other"

    This quote above is rubbish. You literally just claimed that non-Muslims think that ISIS purports an equally valid interpretation of Islam to 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. What a load of crap.
    so, why don't you tell us which interpretation of Christianity is correct ?

    once again :

    (Original post by mariachi)
    it is not possible for us "kuffar" to recognise which of Islam's interpretations is correct and which is false

    This is not our job : our job is simply to assist "moderate" Muslims and help them to defeat, within their communities, violent terrorism acting in the name of Islam. The theological subtleties are not for us : by the way, as we are always being reminded, we are ignorant, we don't know Arabic, we have been "brainwashed" etc etc -how could we possibly adjudicate among competing "Islamic" theories ?
    emphasis added
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    so, why don't you tell us which interpretation of Christianity is correct ?

    once again :

    emphasis added
    I'm not sure why you're bringing Christianity into this.

    ISIS purports a warped version of Islam which very few people follow, no metaphor or story about Christianity is going to change that.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    IS are setting up a violent caliphate which is perfectly in keeping with islam as its exactly what the first caliphs did - you refused to comment on all my points hence you are still ignorant to that and various other facts.
    Oh I'm the one 'refusing to comment on your points?'

    Let me make this clear to you.

    I proved to you that ISIS follows a warped version of Islam, and your response is simply "no they don't"

    I think we're done here, you've proven yourself to be incompetent as discussing things.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Clearly many mistakes have been made. Yet it's worth noting that the US, which has always maintained strict and well enforced immigration controls over the period you talk about has also suffered home grown Jihadi terror and even rigidly controlled totalitarian countries like China have. So it clearly is quite a problem and simplistic solutions or just blaming it on uncontrolled immigration for politically motivated reasons doesn't cut it. We have the migrant populations we have and the question is what to do next, not wishful thinking about reversing it.
    There is a big difference between the bulk of the attacks and on-going threats suffered by the above.

    The problem people in the UK are only here because of MP's, go back 50 years and there were no Muslim terrorists in the UK, now there are many, simply because the MP's allowed large numbers of Muslims to move here. That is why I blame the MP's. China has a region that originally was full of Muslims, that China choses to keep as part of its country, a completely different issue.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    I'm not sure why you're bringing Christianity into this.

    ISIS purports a warped version of Islam which very few people follow, no metaphor or story about Christianity is going to change that.
    I will try to be as clear as possible.

    How could one, as a non-Christian, decide which interpretation of Christianity is correct ?

    how could I, as an "ignorant Kuffar", decide which interpretation of Islam is correct ?

    we cannot : as we know, truth is not a majority/minority issue. And we lack the cultural, historical, linguistic tools to pursue the issue to any significant depth

    so, as far as the "Kuffar" are concerned, we will simply assist "moderate" Muslims in eliminating the murderous Jihadis : and as to theological correctness, we will leave it to Muslims themselves to sort it out with fellow "true believers", on the basis of whatever "holy texts" (and their interpretations) are deemed as being appropriate

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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    Oh I'm the one 'refusing to comment on your points?'

    Let me make this clear to you.

    I proved to you that ISIS follows a warped version of Islam, and your response is simply "no they don't"

    I think we're done here, you've proven yourself to be incompetent as discussing things.
    you are actually doing a great job in demosntrating why IS and other islamist groups exist in the muslim community, you dont listen to facts, you only want to try and argue your own agenda which makes you look even more ridicuous. ive now replied to you 3 times as to IS's motives, which is the islamic motive to violently establish a caliphate, so essentially jsut a land grab. in the same way all other islamic groups al shabab, boko haram, hamas all strive for a violent land grab in their own regions. youve not replied to these facts or the the 5 others posted to you you 10 mins ago
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    I will try to be as clear as possible.

    How could one, as a non-Christian, decide which interpretation of Christianity is correct ?

    how could I, as an "ignorant Kuffar", decide which interpretation of Islam is correct ?

    we cannot : as we know, truth is not a majority/minority issue. And we lack the cultural, historical, linguistic tools to pursue the issue to any significant depth

    so, as far as the "Kuffar" are concerned, we will simply assist "moderate" Muslims in eliminating the murderous Jihadis : and as to theological correctness, we will leave it to Muslims themselves to sort it out with fellow "true believers", on the basis of whatever "holy texts" (and their interpretations) are deemed as being appropriate

    best
    Because the Quran is very clear in what it says, and we have Muslims worldwide who concur that ISIS does not represent Islam.

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    (Original post by Reformed)
    you are actually doing a great job in demosntrating why IS and other islamist groups exist in the muslim community, you dont listen to facts, you only want to try and argue your own agenda which makes you look even more ridicuous. ive now replied to you 3 times as to IS's motives, which is the islamic motive to violently establish a caliphate, so essentially jsut a land grab. in the same way all other islamic groups al shabab, boko haram, hamas all strive for a violent land grab in their own regions. youve not replied to these facts or the the 5 others posted to you you 10 mins ago
    Why are you still replying to me? I've proven to you that ISIS does not follow the same version of Islam that 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide ascribe to.

    How hard is that to understand?
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    Because the Quran is very clear in what it says, and we have Muslims worldwide who concur that ISIS does not represent Islam.

    once again : please tell us which interpretation of Christianity you consider is correct.

    As to your quotes : try discussing with a supporter of terrorist attacks in Western countries (I have, in the past, on some extremist forums)

    I can assure you that, for every quote produced from Quran/hadith, they will come up with some other quote, and we will go round and round endlessly

    rather : in the end, I would be told that I am an ignorant kaffir, that I don't know Arabic, that I have no clue about Islam and that, in any case "Allah guides whom he wills and leads other astray etc etc"

    so: it is far, far from clear which of the (next to infinite) streams in Islam is correct and which isn't

    so, just like you will be unable to decide which version of Christianity is correct, we will not be able to tell which version of Islam is correct

    however, we will gladly support "moderate" Islam (for purely egoistic reasons)

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    once again : please tell us which interpretation of Christianity you consider is correct.

    As to your quotes : try discussing with a supporter of terrorist attacks in Western countries (I have, in the past, on some extremist forums)

    I can assure you that, for every quote produced from Quran/hadith, they will come up with some other quote, and we will go round and round endlessly

    rather : in the end, I would be told that I am an ignorant kaffir, that I don't know Arabic, that I have no clue about Islam and that, in any case "Allah guides whom he wills and leads other astray etc etc"

    so: it is far, far from clear which of the (next to infinite) streams in Islam is correct and which isn't

    so, just like you will be unable to decide which version of Christianity is correct, we will not be able to tell which version of Islam is correct

    however, we will gladly support "moderate" Islam (for purely egoistic reasons)

    best
    So basically, you can't accept the fact that the Quran condemns killing. The Quran which is the holy scripture to which the extremely vast majority of Muslims ascribe to.

    And when it comes to Catholicism vs Protestantism, it is a very big leap to use that to compare ISIL's Islam and Islam. So it will do no good to try to compare the two, given that so few people follow the former.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    So basically, you can't accept the fact that the Quran condemns killing..
    wrong

    the Quran does not condemn killing per se.

    E.g. it clearly allows that those who spread corruption in the land ("fasad") be killed.

    So, what does exactly qualify as "corruption in the land" ?

    and there you start. There is one opinion, and then another opinion, and then a next one etc etc before you even know it, you are engulfed in discussing ancient texts, medieval theologians etc etc

    Good luck in reaching an universal agreement on that.

    Best

    Edit : I , initially, wrongly mentioned that whoever spreads corruption "should" be killed. In fact, it is an authorisation, rather than an order
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    wrong

    the Quran does not condemn killing per se.

    E.g. it clearly states that those who spread corruption in the land ("fasad" should be killed. So, what does exactly qualify as "corruption in the land" ?

    and there you start. There is one opinion, and then another opinion, and then a next one etc etc before you even know it, you are engulfed in discussing ancient texts, medieval theologians etc etc

    Good luck in reaching an universal agreement on that.

    Best
    Do me a favour and don't butt into any further discussions I have to make.

    I don't want to talk to someone who denies the truth when it is laid out right before them
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    Do me a favour and don't butt into any further discussions I have to make.

    I don't want to talk to someone who denies the truth when it is laid out right before them
    the truth :

    The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land : that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. – Quran 5:33

    "fasad" is usually translated as "mischief" or "corruption". It can be punished in the way outlined above

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    the truth :

    The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land : that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. – Quran 5:33

    "fasad" is usually translated as "mischief" or "corruption". It can be punished in the way outlined above

    best
    You are pulling out quotes from the Quran with no background knowledge.

    Read this

    I honestly can't believe you're defending ISIS here.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    You are pulling out quotes from the Quran with no background knowledge.
    and there we are, as I predicted.

    "Oh, You are just a misguided, ignorant kaffir, taking things out of context, no background knowledge etc etc. " this is the usual message I get when I discuss with Muslims about Islamic doctrine

    You are right on schedule, mate. You only missed the "you don't know Arabic" (probably, because you don't know Arabic yourself . In fact, I do know some "basic" Arabic)
    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    I honestly can't believe you're defending ISIS here.
    how disingenuous on your part

    how could you possibly misconstrue my posts to that ridiculous extent ?

    what I am telling you (once again) is this : Quranic verses can be interpreted in many different ways. It is impossible for us, in particular for us non-Muslims, to decide which is the correct one.

    As far as I am concerned, your interpretation is just as valid as the one produced by ISIS. However, I also maintain that ISIS are just a band of criminals, and I will gladly support you in putting them behind bars.

    But this has nothing to do with the correct interpretation of Quran 5:33. An issue which could be discussed for years (and which has, in fact been discussed for centuries)

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    and there we are, as I predicted.

    "Oh, You are just a misguided, ignorant kaffir, taking things out of context, no background knowledge etc etc. " this is the usual message I get when I discuss with Muslims about Islamic doctrine

    You are right on schedule, mate. You only missed the "you don't know Arabic" (probably, because you don't know Arabic yourself . In fact, I do know some "basic" Arabic)
    how disingenuous on your part

    how could you possibly misconstrue my posts to that ridiculous extent ?

    what I am telling you (once again) is this : Quranic verses can be interpreted in many different ways. It is impossible for us, in particular for us non-Muslims, to decide which is the correct one.

    As far as I am concerned, your interpretation is just as valid as the one produced by ISIS. However, I also maintain that ISIS are just a band of criminals, and I will gladly support you in putting them behind bars.

    But this has nothing to do with the correct interpretation of Quran 5:33. An issue which could be discussed for years (and which has, in fact been discussed for centuries)

    best
    ISIS do not follow the same version of Islam that 1.5 billion do worldwide.

    How many different ways can you deny it in 2 hours?
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    You are pulling out quotes from the Quran with no background knowledge.

    Read this

    I honestly can't believe you're defending ISIS here.
    You've done exactly the same on this thread.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    ISIS do not follow the same version of Islam that 1.5 billion do worldwide.


    How many different ways can you deny it in 2 hours?
    He has never denied this point. I'm sure mariachi would be the first person to concede that...

    You have completely missed his point
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    ISIS do not follow the same version of Islam that 1.5 billion do worldwide.

    How many different ways can you deny it in 2 hours?
    you really believe that "truth" has something to do with statistics ?

    strange

    in any case, exactly how many Muslims think that ISIS is right ? or, even just "partially" right ? or even just about Quran 5:33 ?

    who could answer that question ?
 
 
 
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