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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    ISIS wants to make people in Europe afraid of Muslims, so that they alienate them, discriminate against them and cause further divisions within society. They want us to reject the refugees and make it seem like ISIS are the only ones defending these people.
    europe and the west are the biggest contributers to poor and destitute muslims - they all commit billions in aid to muslim nations, and still have taken in more refugees than islamic states such as saudi. bahrain, iran pakistan etc combines- despite all their issues being islamic issues, not actual problems of the west.
    mecca is suppossed to be a refuge for all muslims- it makes billions a year from muslim tourism - why doesnt it open its doors for refugees i wonder?
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    funny how those Belgian terrorists were "Mulslims" when one of the main suspect's dead brother owned a bar and trafficked hashish.

    Being a muslim doesn't make you want to join these militias you see in Syria, nor being a follower of another faith.

    However being a violent individual will make you join these militias - even if it meant you have to adopt a religion. And that's what's happening. Such people find their purpose and identity with militant groups.
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    (Original post by TaintedLight)
    I think it's cute how most of you call those Belgian terrorists "Mulslims" when one of the main suspect's dead brother owned a bar, and trafficked hashish.

    Being a muslim doesn't make you want to join these militias you see in Syria, nor being a follower of another faith.

    However being a violent individual will make you join these militias - even if it meant you have to adopt a religion. And that's what's happening. Such people find their purpose and identity with militant groups.
    militant islamic groups
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    europe and the west are the biggest contributers to poor and destitute muslims - they all commit billions in aid to muslim nations, and still have taken in more refugees than islamic states such as saudi. bahrain, iran pakistan etc combines- despite all their issues being islamic issues, not actual problems of the west.
    mecca is suppossed to be a refuge for all muslims- it makes billions a year from muslim tourism - why doesnt it open its doors for refugees i wonder?
    I am talking about the people, not the nations. Some of the people in the west are exceedingly xenophobic towards Muslims.

    Thankfully our leaders (Obama, Merkel, Hollande, Cameron) are sensible people in this regard, they understand that they're not responsible for terrorism.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    I am talking about the people, not the nations. Some of the people in the west are exceedingly xenophobic towards Muslims.

    Thankfully our leaders (Obama, Merkel, Hollande, Cameron) are sensible people in this regard, they understand that they're not responsible for terrorism.
    we the people elect the leaders, hence why nigel farrage is not in power here or neo nazis in germany and france. nor do we have trump running here.


    however i will say the promotion of islamic doctrine by certain groups and their subsequent attrocites are the biggest recruiters for the far right etc in europe that there ever has been - this is what muslims seem entirely oblivious to. unless they start addressing the problems of extremist prechers etc that arise out of the islamic community they will have to deal with the unfair backlash.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    we the people elect the leaders, hence why nigel farrage is not in power here or neo nazis in germany and france. nor do we have trump running here.


    however i will say the promotion of islamic doctrine by certain groups and their subsequent attrocites are the biggest recruiters for the far right etc in europe that there ever has been - this is what muslims seem entirely oblivious to. unless they start addressing the problems of extremist prechers etc that arise out of the islamic community they will have to deal with the unfair backlash.
    They do actively denounce ISIS, those in Syria and Iraq are dying fighting ISIS, what more do you want?

    I don't remember seeing anyone commanding the white, Christian community to explain the KKK
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    They do actively denounce ISIS, those in Syria and Iraq are dying fighting ISIS, what more do you want?

    I don't remember seeing anyone commanding the white, Christian community to explain the KKK
    usa hung various kkk activists decades ago, to leave a small collecttion of powerless nutcase activists.
    the people fighting IS are mainly yazeidis and shias, not regarded as muslims by IS. most sunni muslims under their control are paying them money

    islamic world has done nothing to curb the ideology of islamic extremists. you can go to any muslim county in the world and find a violent islamist group based there. you can go to any non muslim country in the world and see in its islamic population some record of islamist crimes.the islamic world has never taken ownership of its own probelm that stems form its ideology, it only has been an apologist for it , jsut as you have. hence why the taleban could sieze power of a wholemuslim country, why why IS are able to setup an enitre empire by force in the muslims world, islamic terrorism thrives accorss the entire muslim world without impedement (pakistan was a great example)
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    usa hung various kkk activists decades ago, to leave a small collecttion of powerless nutcase activists.
    the people fighting IS are mainly yazeidis and shias, not regarded as muslims by IS. most sunni muslims under their control are paying them money

    islamic world has done nothing to curb the ideology of islamic extremists. you can go to any muslim county in the world and find a violent islamist group based there. you can go to any non muslim country in the world and see in its islamic population some record of islamist crimes.the islamic world has never taken ownership of its own probelm that stems form its ideology, it only has been an apologist for it , jsut as you have. hence why the taleban could sieze power of a wholemuslim country, why why IS are able to setup an enitre empire by force in the muslims world, islamic terrorism thrives accorss the entire muslim world without impedement (pakistan was a great example)
    Yes, and meanwhile Muslims in Syria and Iraq are killing ISIS militants.

    And yes they definitely have, Muslims have repeatedly denounced ISIS, they have made so many condemnations on social media and across the internet, its a bit absurd to say that the Islamic world has done nothing.

    Let's bring up a specific example,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967

    Muslims in Kenya refused to separate themselves from the Christians, at gun point.

    This is one example, and there are thousands more. Just Google "Muslims condemn ISIS", and also refer kindly to the Syrian Rebels, the Syrian Armed Forces and the Pashmerga who are fighting against ISIS daily.





    I'd like you to apologise for that lie you told, I've emboldened it in case you have issues finding it.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    Yes, and meanwhile Muslims in Syria and Iraq are killing ISIS militants.

    And yes they definitely have, Muslims have repeatedly denounced ISIS, they have made so many condemnations on social media and across the internet, its a bit absurd to say that the Islamic world has done nothing.

    Let's bring up a specific example,

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-35151967

    Muslims in Kenya refused to separate themselves from the Christians, at gun point.

    This is one example, and there are thousands more. Just Google "Muslims condemn ISIS", and also refer kindly to the Syrian Rebels, the Syrian Armed Forces and the Pashmerga who are fighting against ISIS daily.





    I'd like you to apologise for that lie you told, I've emboldened it in case you have issues finding it.
    in my post i made this point that you ignored - the people fighting IS are mainly yazeidis and shias, not regarded as muslims by IS. most sunni muslims under their control are paying them money
    syrian forces are using all the weapons and money given to them by the west to fight assad who is shia. they have no interest in fighting IS

    the islamic gulf arab states that control most of the sunni muslim world fund IS ( along with donations form rest of sunni muslims) they are more intested in bombing yemen where they have killed amsot 5000 jsut this year ( funny hwo you dont mention this)

    the problems that islamist doctrine create are numerous, from terorrism to sectarian murder and war. reaching from africa ( you point out) to euorpe, asia, north america, russia, china, you name it. wheverever islam has ended up you get this problem and has a 1300 year history of doing this - and the islamic world has not done anything to sort its own house out.

    that is why the west and the entire rest of the world looks upon the islamic world as exporting problems not good.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    in my post i made this point that you ignored - the people fighting IS are mainly yazeidis and shias, not regarded as muslims by IS. most sunni muslims under their control are paying them money
    syrian forces are using all the weapons and money given to them by the west to fight assad who is shia. they have no interest in fighting IS

    the islamic gulf arab states that control most of the sunni muslim world fund IS ( along with donations form rest of sunni muslims) they are more intested in bombing yemen where they have killed amsot 5000 jsut this year ( funny hwo you dont mention this)

    the problems that islamist doctrine create are numerous, from terorrism to sectarian murder and war. reaching from africa ( you point out) to euorpe, asia, north america, russia, china, you name it. wheverever islam has ended up you get this problem and has a 1300 year history of doing this - and the islamic world has not done anything to sort its own house out.

    that is why the west and the entire rest of the world looks upon the islamic world as exporting problems not good.
    You're changing the subject.

    You claimed that the Islamic world has done nothing to curb the ideology of extremist Islam.

    I just proved to you that they have done stuff.

    And you bring up some irrelevant story about how it doesn't count because "ISIS don't regard them as Muslims".

    That is a purely illogical statement, you're basically saying that Islam's condemnation of ISIS doesn't count because ISIS don't count them as true Muslims.

    So you're hating on Islam / Muslims because they don't do enough to condemn extremism, yet it doesn't count because ISIS don't consider them Islamic?

    What the hell are you talking about?
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    You're changing the subject.

    You claimed that the Islamic world has done nothing to curb the ideology of extremist Islam.

    I just proved to you that they have done stuff.

    And you bring up some irrelevant story about how it doesn't count because "ISIS don't regard them as Muslims".

    That is a purely illogical statement, you're basically saying that Islam's condemnation of ISIS doesn't count because ISIS don't count them as true Muslims.

    So you're hating on Islam / Muslims because they don't do enough to condemn extremism, yet it doesn't count because ISIS don't consider them Islamic?

    What the hell are you talking about?
    'islam ' doesnt condemn IS, IS are inspired by islam, that is why they are doing what they are doing. if it werent for their ideology, they wouldnt be trying to seize land and setup a caliphate. you may think islam is great and your doctrine stops terrorism but the fact is the opposite - until you realsie that and deal with the issue in your own community, you are indeed part of the problem

    the same doctrine has given rise to more groups than just IS - i just referred to you to islamists that rise up in every area where islam reaches can you explain this?

    there has been an ongoing islamic war for over 1300 years that continues to this day - can you explain this too?
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    'islam ' doesnt condemn IS, IS are inspired by islam, that is why they are doing what they are doing. if it werent for their ideology, they wouldnt be trying to seize land and setup a caliphate. you may think islam is great and your doctrine stops terrorism but the fact is the opposite - until you realsie that and deal with the issue in your own community, you are indeed part of the problem

    the same doctrine has given rise to more groups than just IS - i just referred to you to islamists that rise up in every area where islam reaches can you explain this?

    there has been an ongoing islamic war for over 1300 years that continues to this day - can you explain this too?
    Islam most certainly does condemn ISIS, who are terrorists:

    http://www.emuslim.com/islamagainstVoilence.asp
    http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/isla...terrorism.html
    http://www.khalidzaheer.com/essays/o...terrorism.html
    http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism.htm


    Are you really going to ignore this?
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    they apologise for their ideology by tying to pretend IS arnt muslims/practicing islam etc, when we all know their actions are inspired by isalmic ideology. this is not what i stated as sorting your own house out. muslims need to accept repsonsiblity for all islamist groups accross the globe not just IS, that use their ideology and tackle the root of this ideology to defeat these groups preaching. without their message, they cannot recruit people to commit attrocties.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    they apologise for their ideology by tying to pretend IS arnt muslims/practicing islam etc, when we all know their actions are inspired by isalmic ideology. this is not what i stated as sorting your own house out. muslims need to accept repsonsiblity for all islamist groups accross the globe not just IS, that use their ideology and tackle the root of this ideology to defeat these groups preaching. without their message, they cannot recruit people to commit attrocties.
    I'm done with you, I've proved to you several times that Islam condemns terrorism, and you ignore it.

    Welcome to my block list.
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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    I'm done with you, I've proved to you several times that Islam condemns terrorism, and you ignore it.

    Welcome to my block list.
    when you have no answer to an argument, you block. i assume your list is currently massive

    prob for the best you were ducking all my points for the last 10 minutes anyway.
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    (Original post by TaintedLight)
    I think it's cute how most of you call those Belgian terrorists "Mulslims" when one of the main suspect's dead brother owned a bar, and trafficked hashish.

    Being a muslim doesn't make you want to join these militias you see in Syria, nor being a follower of another faith.

    However being a violent individual will make you join these militias - even if it meant you have to adopt a religion. And that's what's happening. Such people find their purpose and identity with militant groups.
    yes, but this does not mean they are not Muslims : in fact, Islam is very strongly proselytizing in prisons (both in Europe and the US)

    as I had the opportunity to suggest, after the quasi-demise of Communism, Islam is the main political ideology which has emerged as an alternative to the "mainstream" Western system. For this reason, "rebels without a cause" have increasingly found a cause in Islam.

    This is true for political movements in what were once called "third world countries", but also for some marginalised individuals and groups within Western societies

    So, undoubtedly, some of these people may have a shady past, a familiarity with violence, and do often use Islam as a political tool : but does this mean they are not Muslims ? and, is not Islam, by its very essence, a political ideology, which aims at organising the entire society ?

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    (Original post by Frank Underwood)
    I'm done with you, I've proved to you several times that Islam condemns terrorism, and you ignore it.

    Welcome to my block list.
    it's strange how you repeat that you have "proved" this and that, when you have managed in fact to convince no one of your claims. You have just succeeded in excluding yourself from a good part of the discussion

    yes, you have done a great job blocking people on this thread, so that you can't see their arguments (in fact, I'm sure you are lurking).

    Just be careful not to end up by eventually blocking yourself also, so that you don't see your own posts anymore !
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    is not Islam, by its very essence, a political ideology, which aims at organising the entire society ?

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    Its more than that. It seems to have its own finance system, monetary policy, judicial system, military system, system of governance, trading policy, Food and Drug Administration, education policy, system of maritial affairs, inheritence laws, taxation, banking and a whole lot more (some can be good though I must admit).

    Although, I wonder how many True Muslims follow all these.

    Oh, and it seems it has its own science too

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by chemting)
    Its more than that. It seems to have its own finance system, monetary policy, judicial system, military system, system of governance, trading policy, Food and Drug Administration, education policy, system of maritial affairs, inheritence laws, taxation, banking etc (some can be good though I must admit)

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Yes : in fact, up to a certain point in time, the Caliphate developed an efficient administration, which included all the sectors you mentioned. A complex legal system was developed (based mainly on case law and the traditional legal schools) which ensured some consistency and effectiveness

    The Caliphate system however showed signs of stress and poor performance already towards the end of the 17th century, and attempts at reform proved, sometimes, worse than nothing, by randomly introducing elements of "Western" culture within traditional Islamic society

    Trying to revive this experience is a huge challenge : we see the difficulties that all allegedly "Islamic" States have in managing this difficult mix of secular and religious law and institutions

    In the UK, the Hizb (HIzb-ut-Tahrir) tried also to do this, even published detailed lists of Ministries and Offices which should administer the future "Caliphate" - ISIS beat them on time setting up a "Caliphate", but they are considerably less concerned about political theory

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    (Original post by Reformed)
    militant islamic groups
    I think you are a product of a failed society.

    (Original post by mariachi)
    yes, but this does not mean they are not Muslims : in fact, Islam is very strongly proselytizing in prisons (both in Europe and the US)

    as I had the opportunity to suggest, after the quasi-demise of Communism, Islam is the main political ideology which has emerged as an alternative to the "mainstream" Western system. For this reason, "rebels without a cause" have increasingly found a cause in Islam.

    This is true for political movements in what were once called "third world countries", but also for some marginalised individuals and groups within Western societies

    So, undoubtedly, some of these people may have a shady past, a familiarity with violence, and do often use Islam as a political tool : but does this mean they are not Muslims ? and, is not Islam, by its very essence, a political ideology, which aims at organising the entire society ?

    best
    Agreed. However one should also draw a line and appreciate who, from an Islamic point of view, is valued more. If you have muslim who is often drunk and another, completely sober, it's conceivable to reject the drunkard man's Islamic preaching outright.

    Maybe in the past week I read (from BBC if I recall) the Paris terrorists spend their last day Brussels partying in a pub or something. Are these supposed to be fair reflection of some divine religious struggle? I certainly don't think so. It's more like a bunch of people wanting the Call of Duty experience in real life.

    And come to think of it, it looks like every religion is in its essence is a political ideology. I don't think it was the outcome the creators wanted but unfortunately it unfolded that way.
 
 
 
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