Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    You don't have to have done engineering to know what engineering is in the same way you don't need to be scientist to know what science is. It could be that I am coming from a science background that may be a lot less rigid than an engineering background. I was specially taught that there is no high authority that decides what is correct or not in science.

    I never said the "clubs" were a bad thing. I want bridges to be safe. It can be a good way of knowing if someone is experienced and in the case of Civil Engineering they is a very good reason to regulate who can build them to make sure the buildings, roads and bridges we use are not going to break and kill people. I'm just saying that the clubs are not essential for someone to engineer something or to be classed as an engineer.

    You just acknowledged there are different fields of physics. Pure physics isn't engineering sure. However Applied physics overlaps with engineering very much so. If your research is based on the physics of how graphene behaves at extreme temperatures and pressures then that is pure science. You are doing it for it's own sake (although it can be motivated by the potential practical uses that could come out of your research). But if you are a physicist involved in the research and development of little graphene electrodes that can be placed in the brain to treat motor neuron diseases then they are in the field of nano and bioengineering. You can get into that kind of field just by doing a science phd or even just from a graduate base line if you worked your way up though a biotech company to something. All that matter is you somehow prove you are knowledgeable and skilled in your area. You don;t need to be a charted engineer or anything like that.

    Ultimately I don't care what you call it. You can keep your stupid engineering badge/snob factor. If someone engineers a solution that cures people of parkinson's disease I care more about the achievement than what we call the people who made it happen. Same with those who build bridges.

    "Applied physics is physics which is intended for a particular technological or practical use.[1] It is usually considered as a bridge or a connection between physics and engineering" ~ Wiki


    "Basic research, also called pure research or fundamental research, is scientific research aimed to improve scientific theories for improved understanding or prediction of natural or other phenomena.[1] Applied research, in turn, uses scientific theories to develop technology or techniques to intervene and alter natural or other phenomena. Though often driven by curiosity,[2]basic research fuels applied science's innovations.[3] The two aims are often coordinated in research and development."

    It's not like I am in the minority here of what counts as engineering anyway. You are.

    I'm a Bachelor of Science in Physics from a uni that does a lot of Applied Physics so I think I have more bits of paper than you when it comes to physics and the different schools within it and how they relate to engineering.

    I don't have time to argue about "oh I went to this uni with this applied physics department so I know more than you" and "2 or 3 people agree with me I'm right and you're wrong"

    Sure anyone can decide they want to make something using engineering principles but that doesn't mean it'll be technically sound. Nobody is going to allow the sole invention of a physicist to begin distribution for public usage right away. There'll likely be oversights and cutbacks as well as considerations of applicability. These are all things that engineers do on a daily basis (depending on the area of course). Design is iterative, you don't just sit up in a lab and think up the best thing ever to release to the masses. But sitting in a lab and thinking up final AND perfect solutions is the thing physics people do with some experiments to verify obviously.

    I'm not denying that they can overlap, I'm just saying that a physicist doesn't just stop one day and say oh let me be an engineer today like that other person was suggesting when they said the person with the medical science degree became an engineer because the employer hired the person with that job title.

    If you feel that I'm being snobbish it's because you feel inferior. Don't project your negative ideas onto me because I never said anything like that.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Donkey******)
    Almost certainly, either through a grad scheme or direct application.
    Most companies aren't that bothered about your degree subject as long as it's a decent degree. I have a friend who did medical science working as an engineer.
    Your friend is almost certainly the exception to the rule. Graduate level engineering jobs that do not specify an MEng are becoming rarer and rarer.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ServantOfMorgoth)
    No, its not. It's laiden with assumptions and estimations that someone without experience in engineering would not know what assumptions or estimations to make.
    (Original post by Smack)
    Your friend is almost certainly the exception to the rule. Graduate level engineering jobs that do not specify an MEng are becoming rarer and rarer.
    I think you need to realise that engineering isn't as elitist as you're trying to make out. Grad schemes are designed to bridge whatever course you've done and give you the knowledge you require to do the job. It's one of the reasons companies are moving away from grad schemes to degree apprenticeships. Grads who think they know it all require breaking and retraining to think appropriately for the role. With an apprentice, you've had them longer, taught them to think the way that is required to do the job, and you're not having to pay them as much as a self enabled grad who thinks they know more than they actually do.
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Donkey******)
    I think you need to realise that engineering isn't as elitist as you're trying to make out.
    I'm not suggesting engineering is elitist. (As a career and profession, I think it's the opposite of elitist, actually.) It's not elitist for an engineering company to want its engineering graduates to have an engineering degree, any more than it is elitist for the NHS to want its doctors to have medicine degrees.

    Grad schemes are designed to bridge whatever course you've done and give you the knowledge you require to do the job.
    For engineering jobs there is a base level of knowledge one would be expected to have before starting the position, and one would not have that knowledge without an engineering degree.

    Otherwise, there would be no point in even recruiting a graduate if you are going to teach them everything they need to know on the job.

    It's one of the reasons companies are moving away from grad schemes to degree apprenticeships. Grads who think they know it all require breaking and retraining to think appropriately for the role. With an apprentice, you've had them longer, taught them to think the way that is required to do the job, and you're not having to pay them as much as a self enabled grad who thinks they know more than they actually do.
    It's worth pointing out that a lot of engineering apprenticeships are training the apprentice towards a technician role or a CAD designer, if office based. Well, at least that's been the case at the companies I have worked at. There is nothing wrong with this, and companies have probably neglected recruitment of young people into these types of posts to a much greater extent than they have with regards to their engineering intakes. But I'm not sure if such apprentices are moving into engineering roles like what a graduate would be expected to do.
    • Community Assistant
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    (Original post by MathsAstronomy12)
    Can you still pursue a career in an engineering if you do a degree in physics instead?
    Depends on the type you are looking at.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Smack)
    I'm not suggesting engineering is elitist. (As a career and profession, I think it's the opposite of elitist, actually.) It's not elitist for an engineering company to want its engineering graduates to have an engineering degree, any more than it is elitist for the NHS to want its doctors to have medicine degrees.



    For engineering jobs there is a base level of knowledge one would be expected to have before starting the position, and one would not have that knowledge without an engineering degree.

    Otherwise, there would be no point in even recruiting a graduate if you are going to teach them everything they need to know on the job.



    It's worth pointing out that a lot of engineering apprenticeships are training the apprentice towards a technician role or a CAD designer, if office based. Well, at least that's been the case at the companies I have worked at. There is nothing wrong with this, and companies have probably neglected recruitment of young people into these types of posts to a much greater extent than they have with regards to their engineering intakes. But I'm not sure if such apprentices are moving into engineering roles like what a graduate would be expected to do.
    I'd still argue that an engineering degree isn't necessary, purely because there's so many processes to follow, it kind of makes it idiot proof, but I can see the merit in hiring someone with an engineering degree, you've at least got the theoretical knowledge to work in advanced engineering for example. (NB. I sometimes feel like they concentrate all the idiots around me, some of the things you hear are scary)

    Technical roles are certainly what they're looking for in terms of apprentices, but at the same time, they're filling up a huge variety of roles with them. Grads seem to end up, from my experience, in fairly fixed process jobs. Test, analyse, report type jobs. There's merits for grads and apprentices, but it seems like my company at least wants to focus more on apprentices because by the time you are qualified, you've got the right mindset to move anywhere within the company.

    It's all speculative obviously, but they seem to take on less grads each year and expand apprenticeships (I'm guessing because of an ageing work force, and you get more commitment from apprentices)
    • Community Assistant
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    (Original post by Donkey******)
    I'd still argue that an engineering degree isn't necessary, purely because there's so many processes to follow, it kind of makes it idiot proof, but I can see the merit in hiring someone with an engineering degree, you've at least got the theoretical knowledge to work in advanced engineering for example. (NB. I sometimes feel like they concentrate all the idiots around me, some of the things you hear are scary)

    Technical roles are certainly what they're looking for in terms of apprentices, but at the same time, they're filling up a huge variety of roles with them. Grads seem to end up, from my experience, in fairly fixed process jobs. Test, analyse, report type jobs. There's merits for grads and apprentices, but it seems like my company at least wants to focus more on apprentices because by the time you are qualified, you've got the right mindset to move anywhere within the company.

    It's all speculative obviously, but they seem to take on less grads each year and expand apprenticeships (I'm guessing because of an ageing work force, and you get more commitment from apprentices)
    You are at a much higher advantage in pretty much every case if you did an engineering degree and are looking at an engineering career. Some disciplines require a specific degree, civil engineering requires a civil engineering degree, there are apprenticeships for it but you cannot get to a as high career as with a degree.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Vikingninja)
    You are at a much higher advantage in pretty much every case if you did an engineering degree and are looking at an engineering career. Some disciplines require a specific degree, civil engineering requires a civil engineering degree, there are apprenticeships for it but you cannot get to a as high career as with a degree.
    My experiences are from the car industry, and the apprenticeship includes a degree.

    Pay someone for 6 years to work in the company and complete a degree or higher someone with a degree already who may not display the behaviours you desire within the company. Screening at interviews/assessment centres are all well and good, but it's easy to tailor behaviour for a day. It's not so easy to do that over a 6 year period.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Vikingninja)
    Depends on the type you are looking at.
    Presumably any but chemical?
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Donkey******)
    I'd still argue that an engineering degree isn't necessary, purely because there's so many processes to follow, it kind of makes it idiot proof,
    That very much depends on the role. I don't agree with this as a blanket statement.

    It's all speculative obviously, but they seem to take on less grads each year and expand apprenticeships (I'm guessing because of an ageing work force, and you get more commitment from apprentices)
    Also, that apprentices have likely been chronically under-recruited for a while now, that there is a strong need to recruit the next generation of technicians, machinists, draughtsmen etc.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    wouldn't necessarily agree with Vikingninja, speaking from personal experience after a 28 year career in civil engineering the better engineers / managers come through the vocational education route (HNC/D), if a career in consultancy is sought then a degree could be the better option but candidates lack the essential hands on experience that is so important.
    The bigger worry in the industry is senior management of the future will all have come via the degree route, variety is a necessity so both routes need to be maintained.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources

    Apprenticeship zone:

    GIGF logo

    Apprenticeship Zone

    All you need to know about higher and degree apprenticeships.

    GIGF logo

    Meet the apprentices

    Read these case studies from real apprentices to hear the truth about what it's like!

    GIGF logo

    Apprenticeship Vacancies

    Find the latest higher and degree apprenticeship opportunities.

    Featured recruiter profiles:

    CGI logo

    CGI is open for applications

    "Offering a range of apprentice and sponsored degree positions."

    ICAEW logo

    ICAEW

    "Choose a career journey with limitless possibilities."

    Army logo

    The Army is recruiting now

    "With hundreds of roles available, there’s more than one way to be the best."

    Quick links:

    Unanswered apprenticeships and alternatives to university threads

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.